Color genertics question

[stockdogranch]

Ok. I have an understanding of how two black and white dogs can have tri pups, but I am not sure about two tri parents...will the entire litter be necessarily tri?

 

Wishing I had taken more science classes in all of my education,

Thanks,

A

ETA: Wish I had looked at my spelling in the topic title...sheesh!!

[Journey]

I want to say "yes" all tri's but something at the back of my thought says not a guarantee.

[Liz P]

There are 2 types of tri color that I know of in Border Collies. They can look so similar that it takes someone very familiar with color genetics to tell them apart.

 

1) Sable, which is dominant. Two sable parents can produce either sable or black and white pups, unless one of the parents is homozygous for sable, in which case the whole litter will be sable.

 

2) Tan point, which is recessive. If both parents are tan point you get all tan point puppies.

[mjk05]

There are 2 types of tri color that I know of in Border Collies. They can look so similar that it takes someone very familiar with color genetics to tell them apart.

 

1) Sable, which is dominant. Two sable parents can produce either sable or black and white pups, unless one of the parents is homozygous for sable, in which case the whole litter will be sable.

 

2) Tan point, which is recessive. If both parents are tan point you get all tan point puppies.

This, sort of. My understanding is that sable is incompletely dominant to tri, so a dog can be both sable and tri (ay at- 'shaded sable')- and will sometimes look like a tri, but the hairs are sable when you look closely. Homozygous sables (ay ay) in contrast are often lighter coloured, 'orange', or a sort of cream.

 

So if both of these hypothetical parents were true tris (no sable ay gene), then yes, all the litter would be tri. If one was tri (at at) and the other a dark shaded sable (ay at), then each pup would have a 50% chance of being a shaded sable too, and a 50% chance of being tri. If both parents were in fact dark shaded sables (ay at), then the chances for each pup would be:

25% tri (at at)

50% shaded sable (ay at)

25% clear sable (ay at)

 

There's also the issue of brindle, which does occur in border collies- usually as brindling on the tan points of a tri dog. But if a pup inherits the brindle (kbr) gene from one parent (who perhaps has had their brindle points overlooked) and is also genetically a clear sable (ay ay), then it will be a brindle dog all over.

 

The other exception is ee red (aka cream)- this is a masking effect caused by an autosomal recessive gene. So if both tri parents carry this gene, their pups will each have a 25% chance of being ee red.

[rufftie]

so my dog is ee ay ee ay o! sorry, just had to go there. hehehe

[juliepoudrier]

^^Ha! Ha! (with the o! being the surprise pup that comes out in a totally unexpected color).

 

J.

[stockdogranch]

Thanks, everyone. This:

There are 2 types of tri color that I know of in Border Collies.

sent me to the website that has photos of all the different colors (just to double check). The two dogs in question are run-of-the-mill tan-point tris. So tri colored pups they should be. Photos will be posted in 9-10 days!

A

PS I see that Lone is on that site now, as an example of a bearded border collie. How cool is that!

[juliepoudrier]

Anna,

Are you sure they're run of the mill? My Lark appears to be a standard tan point tri, but I've had several people tell me it's possible she's sable because the hair, especially on her head, is actually brown with black tips--but to see it you have to rub the hair backward; otherwise it just looks black.

 

Just to put more mystery into things (and looking forward to photos!).

 

J.

[Jeanne Joy]

Visit this page on Sheila Schmutz's site and scroll down to Tricolor, Black-and-Tan, Tan Points (at):

 

http://homepage.usask.ca/~schmutz/agouti.html

[stockdogranch]

Julie--yeah, they're pretty ordinary tris. I did have one a while back, Dottie, who started out looking like a regular tri, but at 3-4 months she started getting this weird tan/grayish around her neck. It continued until all her hair was actually tan at the base, with black on the shaft/tips. I looked it up and, as I recall, it was something called a "seal" gene. Her mother was a black & white, and the sire was a sable.

 

I'll be giving puppy updates--we go for xray this coming Friday for a more accurate count. They are due the 27th

A

[denice]

I just a litter of pups. Before reading this I would have said my bitch Gem is a tri but she is not your typical tri, she has some grey in her and tan on her neck as well as tan hairs with black tips. She is a smooth coat and I have seen a litter sister who is a typical med coated tri. The male was a typical tri with tan points. There are b/w pups in the litter as well as typical tris. I know the male had b/w litter mates. I am just never sure what will come out - that is what makes it fun!!

Denice

[PSmitty]

Julie--yeah, they're pretty ordinary tris. I did have one a while back, Dottie, who started out looking like a regular tri, but at 3-4 months she started getting this weird tan/grayish around her neck. It continued until all her hair was actually tan at the base, with black on the shaft/tips. I looked it up and, as I recall, it was something called a "seal" gene. Her mother was a black & white, and the sire was a sable.

 

 

Anna, do you have any pics of Dottie? Just curious, as I have a "funny colored" border collie, and seal is the closest thing I've seen to his color, although I guess he is more likely a heavily shaded sable.

[Maralynn]

Anna, do you have any pics of Dottie? Just curious, as I have a "funny colored" border collie, and seal is the closest thing I've seen to his color, although I guess he is more likely a heavily shaded sable.

 

Okay, what's the difference between sable and brindle? I'm pretty sure that Kipp is a brindle. But he looks tri unless you look close. But his tan on his face is definitely look brindle if you look close and the undersides of his back legs have a lot of brindle on them.

[PSmitty]

Okay, what's the difference between sable and brindle? I'm pretty sure that Kipp is a brindle. But he looks tri unless you look close. But his tan on his face is definitely look brindle if you look close and the undersides of his back legs have a lot of brindle on them.

 

I hope you're not asking me. I don't have a clue!

 

I did have someone ask me once if Will is brindle, but I don't think so.

[mjk05]

so my dog is ee ay ee ay o! sorry, just had to go there. hehehe

 

Maralynn, if it looks like brindle, it's probably brindle: alternating stripes of reddish fur and blackish fur. I think it can be hard to tell with tri dogs though. I haven't seen a brindle tri in the flesh, but I have seen some other breeds with 'brindle points' and while you have to looks closely, it's obviously brindle. Have you got a photo?

[mjk05]

I'm pretty sure both of these dogs are sable/tri (ay at)- their hair is very definitely fawn with dark tips all over. Everyone calls them tri.

 

 

[Liz P]

I would call both of those dogs sable, not tan point.

 

This dog is a tan point with brindle points.

 

[PSmitty]

I call Will sable. He's the one that I thought looked seal, but I know that's rare.

 

 

I would call Alex a tan point tri, but all of his hair is tan at the base, with black tips, so is he sable, too?

 

 

(Terrible pic, I swear he's not pooping. )

[Liz P]

Alex is a sable.

[mjk05]

I would call both of those dogs sable, not tan point.

Most people would call them tri, I think. Nowhere near as 'sable' as your classic sable rough collie, or the sable border collies on the Bryning site. But they're both tri and sable, so we're all right

 

PSmitty, I think Will is 'seal', which depending on your source is either a dark shaded sable +/- the influence of an unknown modifying gene, or the result of a dog being sable (ay ay) as well as heterozygous for dominant black (Kk).

 

Hard to tell from the photo, but I'd guess Alex is a tri/sable (ay at) too- there are some tri dogs that have a tan undercoat with longer black coat hairs, but if the hairs all over are fawn with dark tips, he's probably a tri/sable.

 

ETA:

here's a few tri dogs that aren't sable- but have a fawn undercoat, especially by the end of winter. If you brush their fur back, it looks fawn underneath, so you might think they're sable. But when you pull a tuft of hair out, it's made up of fawn undercoat and black outer coat, rather than actual sable hairs.

[Maralynn]

 

Maralynn, if it looks like brindle, it's probably brindle: alternating stripes of reddish fur and blackish fur. I think it can be hard to tell with tri dogs though. I haven't seen a brindle tri in the flesh, but I have seen some other breeds with 'brindle points' and while you have to looks closely, it's obviously brindle. Have you got a photo?

 

hmm, here is an old thread with some pics My link Kipp is the smoothie. It's hard to see, but if you look close you can see faint hints of tri in his face and along his legs, but it all goes to black over his body. But flip him over and the inside of his legs have a fair ammount of brindle on them.

 

Scroll down this page to the picture of the gal with the 3 smooth BCs - they're related to my dog and all very brindle My link Kipp looks similar to the dog on the right with the most black.

[mjk05]

hmm, here is an old thread with some pics My link Kipp is the smoothie. It's hard to see, but if you look close you can see faint hints of tri in his face and along his legs, but it all goes to black over his body. But flip him over and the inside of his legs have a fair ammount of brindle on them.

 

Scroll down this page to the picture of the gal with the 3 smooth BCs - they're related to my dog and all very brindle My link Kipp looks similar to the dog on the right with the most black.

Gorgeous looking dogs! Looks like definite brindle to me on the flyball photos, so I'd guess Kipp is a brindle tri?

 

My old stumpy had the weirdest sort of translucent brindle on his rump- it wasn't there all the time, depended on the thickness of his coat. He was otherwise classically cattle dog ticked (white with ticking), so I don't know how it worked. I had some cattle dog people try to tell me it was 'red roaning', caused by breeding too many reds to blues or something, but it was definitely brindle.

[MyTDogs]

(Terrible pic, I swear he's not pooping. )

 

LOL! Good! that EXACTLY what i was thinking

[stockdogranch]

Paula, I don't have any pics of Dottie that you can see her coat, but I agree that Will is a seal. That's what Dottie looks like. But from any distance, she just looks tan-point tri.

 

Actually, the dam of the upcoming pups is a weird kind of tri also (after I claimed she was run of the mill earlier). Her legs are white, and the bits of tan on her face (not eyebrows, but small dabs on her cheeks), is a very subtle creamy tan, not a reddish tan. Under her tail is also very creamy colored, and then on her shoulders and flanks she has some tan hairs sprinkled in the black. The black part of her hind legs--on the back side of the leg down to the hock--also has the same scattered tan hairs. I'll see if I can find any pics that show that...

A

[Chesney's Girl]

Paula, I don't have any pics of Dottie that you can see her coat, but I agree that Will is a seal. That's what Dottie looks like. But from any distance, she just looks tan-point tri.

 

Actually, the dam of the upcoming pups is a weird kind of tri also (after I claimed she was run of the mill earlier). Her legs are white, and the bits of tan on her face (not eyebrows, but small dabs on her cheeks), is a very subtle creamy tan, not a reddish tan. Under her tail is also very creamy colored, and then on her shoulders and flanks she has some tan hairs sprinkled in the black. The black part of her hind legs--on the back side of the leg down to the hock--also has the same scattered tan hairs. I'll see if I can find any pics that show that...

A

 

 

Here is a picture of Tik and you can see her cheek and just above her elbow the cream colored fur:

Anna Guthrie's Tikkle by shankit4chesney, on Flickr