obedience with sheep

[Caroline]

Ok this is me, who has trained positive for years, has done clicker training (not for herding of course) and is generally a "soft" trainer. I have worked with a friend who is an animal behaviorist of sorts that is positive. But I don't think she understands the drive border collies have around sheep. I don't want a dog pulling me to the post and any dog worth his salt isn't going to prefer hot dogs to sheep. Therefore I have implemented leash corrections to convince Luke that around sheep he must listen to me. It has worked effectively. The positive reinforcement is, of course, getting the sheep. If he pulls now, usually an "uh uh" will stop him. For most non herding obedience I still use treats and positive methods. I also have learned the first lesson in that I keep my mouth mostly shut when we are working sheep.

Caroline

[Sue R]

Sounds good to me! Good luck with your herding training. Seems like you are hooked. Don't forget about the $200,000 dog.

[Denise Wall]

Caroline,

 

An alternate strategy might be to teach a "behind" command, meaning "get behind me," roughly in the same area in relation to you as heeling but not as restrictive. Once the dog knows this command, don't walk toward the sheep unless the dog stays behind you. If he surges out in front, stop until he figures out he isn't getting to the sheep unless he's behind you. With patience this works well and teaches the dog to control himself.

 

I use a leash sometimes walking out to the post at trials so I can concentrate and won't have to pay attention to where the dog is. Otherwise, my dogs rarely see leashes. Of course, my place is completely fenced so that helps me not need leashes when they're pups.

 

Just an idea for you to consider.

[Caroline]

Thanks Denise, do you teach the dog while on leash though? I have never taught this dog to heel formally anyway. What I wonder is how many people use a leash for training early on and use leash corrections. It is just so much fun and challenging training with him and the sheep. And humbling as another thread said earlier.

Thanks,

Caroline

[ccnnc]

Hey Caroline,

 

I use a variation on Denise's solution, just a simple "with me" command. With my little zoom-zoom red girl I used a light long line for a while, if she didn't honor the first "with me's", I'd just step on the line and use that to define the "with me" range. Didn't take long for her to get the picture.

 

Good luck & stay positive!

 

Colin

[tucknjill]

Hi Caroline,

 

I think alot of people that come to herding from obedience and other venues that use positive training methods find pretty quickly that you have to use a hybrid sort of style. (not sure if I am using that word correctly.) What I mean is, I still use food and positive methods on puppies and dogs that I am starting work with off of sheep, ie general obedience. However, at some point when the dog/pup has an understanding of what I want, a varying range of compulsive measures will be adopted. For example, puppy gets cookie for loading up in the van or coming when called...after awhile when I know they know what I want, I stop using a lure and offer as a reward....after a bit more when I know they know it solid...for instance, if they dont load up or come when called they get corrected. The level of that depends on the different dog. When starting on sheep, however, I adopt any level of correction I need to impress on that dog that they must behave and not abuse the stock. While perhapse training the down in a more positive manner off the stock (although in a real world it is pretty easy to teach while on stock but you will figure that out later if you keep with it.)

 

I think herding helps foster a more matter of fact approach to dog training. I have never seen anyone come out here for lessons that was able to train a stock dog without some sort of compulsion. BUT that doesnt automatically mean you have to kick the crap out of your dog the minute you walk thru the gate either

[Caroline]

Thanks Colin and Sam, this is exactly what I am talking about as I was never a formal obedience trainer. I have given up trying to talk about training in respect to sheep and why one has to give a correction! Luke has been on a long line and did have a surprise when he came to the end of it after I called him to me. We had worked on recalls and his recall of stock is pretty good. I sure agree that I don't see how it is possible. With my old dog who only did limited herding, he knows what to do now when I ask him, well if he can hear me that is. Does he get a correction? rarely but he is 13 and I let him be a bit grumpy as I think he has earned that right I am glad to hear that using some sort of "control measure" /compulsion has been required at your place Sam, by everyone that has come to train with you. I am sure enjoying this. Luke is very sensitive to my position, to the point of one trainer saying that might be a challenge when you get to penning. I like the way you put that Sam, use compulsion but don't start by kicking the crap out of your dog .

Thanks folks,

Caroline

[MaggieDog]

I just started herding w/ Maggie (3 lessons so far)...she's doing well but I've also discovered the same things. I'm a clicker trainer as well and of course don't use it when we're with the sheep. Right now I use a rake to keep Maggie off the sheep and thus correct her using motions with the rake or, when she's really too close to the stock, throw it right next to her (not to hit, just to startle).

 

The only problem I'm having with this technique is that while the correction seems to work immediately, the long lasting impression it leaves on Maggie seems overly negative. My trainer doesn't seem concerned, but I've noticed Maggie taking off across the field to check out other things rather than working the stock more often and I wonder if it's a reaction to too much pressure from the rake and my handling? Any thoughts there?

[Tassie]

Interesting discussion. In obedience and other ?sports? I?m a positive trainer, although I?m prepared to correct for really bratty stuff like nipping me if I?m not giving clear directions in agility. But my take on working with sheep is that my primary responsibility is to protect the sheep from harm ? if that takes a fairly big correction (again, not kicking the crap out of the dog) then that?s what it takes.

 

Kirra and I started with an AKC type group (and not a very knowledgeable one) and we both got into some bad habits, which my current trainer (farmer and working sheepdog trialler) had to get us out of. At one point, in correcting the splitting and chasing, we did reach shut down point ? my trainer at that point advised putting the dog up. She then lent me one of her dogs to work with so that I could start to get things without having to worry about the sheep. That was a really neat thing for me. After a couple of times of sulking and being put up in the car, little Miss Kirra decided that maybe it was better to do it our way.

 

Now she?ll occasionally have a little brain fry, and need voice correction and maybe strong body pressure, but on the whole she?s pretty good. (Except that we?re having to work hard on stop and lie down, now, which my trainer wants to get solid before we start fussing her about getting further out off her sheep.) With Kirra, it?s a balancing act between putting too much pressure on her, and not enough. On the whole, she?s a pressure-sensitive dog. The reward for her is always being allowed to work.

 

We?ve had the huge advantage of being able to vary fields we work on, and mob size and nature of sheep ? from 5 or so training sheep, up to 175 wethers - and of being able to help out with real farm jobs. She really likes to have a purpose in what she does.

 

Oh, and I use "with me" as the command to stick fairly close to me, but I must say I use a leash when we're walkiing through a field with ewes and lambs - don't want to be responsible for unmothering the lambs. Merinos not being the best mommas in the world.