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Double lift-can you call the dog back to you?


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Just think of how the dog would move if you were pulling a rope attached to the collar. That's how i use the name. If i want them to move away from me, a flank will do it. Note that i don't always use the name for an inside flank, depends on what shape flank i want. If i want them to push into an inside flank, the flank whistle and a fast walk up will do it too.

 

There was a moment I distinctly remember seeing this with Zac and how it helped get the sheep pushed through the fetch panels. And I know I've seen it on flanking, where it seems to draw the dog into the sheep. What if the draw happens to be in your direction on a crossdrive...to get them to push toward the sheep (and away from you) then I take it you would not use their name, but something else? Or do they figure out through training that, in that context, their name in that instance means they should push toward the sheep? (Speaking of draws I am getting a little OT here, please pardon.)

 

B.

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I ran in several Double Lifts last year...Nan had no issues on the turn back. Poor Lucy did not have a turn back. On Lucy's run, I dropped the sheep at the post, flanked her to one side, gave a short recall so she was farther on the side I wanted to send her, then pointed towards the second packet.

 

She turned where I pointed then I blew a long flank and she got her second packet. At home in our marsh where the grass is waist high, sometime I point to the area where the sheep are and then send Lucy. So she knew where I pointed, sheep would be there. After that I taught her a look back.

 

Now with my young pups, I teach them a look back and they have to learn to release the pressure. For some of them it is easy and for others, they do not want to let go of their sheep.

 

Diane

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From the Juding Guidelines:

Regarding a double-lift:

It doesn't specify, though, what constitutes being "called back to the handler." I guess that's up to the judge's discretion.

 

By the way, a lot of people have never looked at the judging guidelines. It sets up almost any scenario and is pretty informative.

 

Jodi

 

(Sorry if someone has already posted this info. I didn't have time to read the whole thread, but was curious what the guidelines said about it...)

 

 

It definitely states and I quote, "dog must be called back to the handler" which would indicate that the dog was called back to you and you actually cast him/her off after the second group of sheep. Most Judges, including myself, would dq for literally resending the dog after already starting the outrun. You really only get one chance to send your dog from your feet and if you call him/her back that is either 19 off or a dq. I don't find anything in the Judging guidelines that would indicate a dq for giving a that'll do command nor do I see any need for it. We do lots of things out there to get our dogs where they need to be and, if it works, and is within the rules and guidelines, more power to you.........Bob

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The problem is when at some point during your run you have no idea whether something you do will get one point off or a DQ. Don't get me wrong, I'm all about judges using their experience and discretion, that's why we hire them, etc., instead of a bunch of hard and fast rules with no wiggle room.

 

If you get DQ'ed out of the blue unexpectedly at a normal Open trial, while that's not a happy surprise, it's not as big of a deal as when it happens at the National Finals, especially on the top 17 day.

 

And as I think of all the unexpected things I've seen people DQ'ed over in the years I've been trialling, the list can become very long to ask about at the handlers' meeting. If they'll even tell you. Many years ago I had a long streak of going around the post the wrong way, or having a sheep cut in front of the post at the end of the fetch. The penalty can be severe, one point, DQ or any number of things. The remedy (if not DQ'ed) can be go on and let the judge point it, or unwind. So finally, after getting burned at a big trial where I lost a top placing doing the wrong thing to remedy for that particular judge, I started asking at the handlers' meetings. This question was not always met with a patient or consistent answer. And one UK judge simply told me sternly, "Just don't do it." never answering my question at all.

 

If there can't be a consensus on some of these main things, could there at least be a list of some of these things covered at the handlers' meetings without someone having to remember to ask?

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Dear Sheepdoggers,

 

 

Denise asked:

 

 

"If there can't be a consensus on some of these main things, could there at least be a list of some of these things covered at the handlers' meetings without someone having to remember to ask?"

 

The last human who perfectly understood the law was Moses.

 

Donald McCaig

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Ah, but even ol' Moses got frustrated with the law and struck the rock, albeit an action that promptly got him DQ'ed and not eligible to enter the promise land, but anyhow...couldn't resists the banter with Donald.

 

Switching rabbit trails, the "recall" command, don't know a lot about it. Being a newbie, it may be something I won't even get to use for a double lift (not sure I'll ever get that far) but, it appears that it could be useful in other areas as well. Robin alluded to working some more on it with Bill, would you elaborate on how you train for this Robin (and of course anyone else who has trained for the "recall", ie: how is that different from say a "here to me" or a That'll do"?)

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Ah, but even ol' Moses got frustrated with the law and struck the rock, albeit an action that promptly got him DQ'ed and not eligible to enter the promise land,

He was frustrated with the people and made a mistake in regards to instructions from God. Which teaches us about the importance of focusing on the right things in herding :rolleyes: and additionally gives clues concerning the proper use of the staff - no touching, no hitting! :D

 

Maja

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Thanks Robin. I was thinking the "recall" was something a bit different, but since it's not, (and it's like a "here to me", or "that'll do"), then I guess you would redirect with another command again, just before the dog actually gets the chance to come back to your side? In other words, when Bill was on his way back to you, then did you give him say, a flank command, as he was starting to come back towards you? With me, whenever I have called a dog back to me, I've always waited for the dog to return to my side and then resent him. Somehow I need to learn how to stop that return request. I guess it is just as simple as giving another command right after the dog starts coming towards you. (?)

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He was frustrated with the people and made a mistake in regards to instructions from God. Which teaches us about the importance of focusing on the right things in herding :rolleyes: and additionally gives clues concerning the proper use of the staff - no touching, no hitting! :D

 

Maja

You are right, he was frustrated with the people, but I think he made his "mistake" on purpose! :D

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Thanks Robin. I was thinking the "recall" was something a bit different, but since it's not, (and it's like a "here to me", or "that'll do"), then I guess you would redirect with another command again, just before the dog actually gets the chance to come back to your side? In other words, when Bill was on his way back to you, then did you give him say, a flank command, as he was starting to come back towards you? With me, whenever I have called a dog back to me, I've always waited for the dog to return to my side and then resent him. Somehow I need to learn how to stop that return request. I guess it is just as simple as giving another command right after the dog starts coming towards you. (?)

 

I think i've gotten a little lost on this as far as when you're talking about using it with Bill, but yeah, give the recall, then stop the dog. Then a look command if needed (say if sheep are out of sight, if in sight most dogs will look at them without it), then re-flank.

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