Working lines with Merle?

[Sue R]

You seem to be confusing practicality under certain situations with the dogs being "sub-par" themselves. Or perhaps something said has led you to believe that. While a certain color or hair coat or ear set may or may not be more or less practical under certain conditions, does not make a dog "sub-par". It may just make that particular type of dog less useful or suitable *in that situation*. The dogs themselves are fine (as long as they do the work) but the situation may demand (or cause to be preferred) something different.

 

For instance, my tipped-earred bitch gets grass seeds in her ears that the doofy-earred (sort of puppy-earred or sailplane-earred) males don't. So, in my case, (as much as I love prick-earred dogs) the kind of ears my males have are much more practical on our farm, and result in fewer problems. Likewise, a slick-coated dog will pick up fewer burrs and/or the ones they pick up will be more easily removed, if that is an issue.

 

Neither type of ear or coat is "sub-par" - but one or the other may be more practical in certain situations and therefore selected for by those who seek the most workable dog in their situation, and for good reason.

[geonni banner]

Is it unreasonable for those of us new and trying to learn to be confused when we read things like this?

 

"Because of cultural prejudice, pups would be harder to put in the hands of those who might prove them and for me more important, against West Texas or Dakota vegetation at 800 yards merles or reds are harder to see".

To me, I read this quote as saying that the colors of merle and red would be subpar to black and white at a distance in those conditions. Am I taking that wrong?

 

Ooh, ooh! Can I answer this one?

 

You are not reading it wrong in a sense - the operative phrase being "in those conditions." We see different conformational types within the breed as well as different coat colors. The long-legged dogs might have an edge on a huge flat spread where they had to do a lot of running. A cobbier dog would be better in rough, hilly terrain. Doesn't make either type better as a sheepdog - except in specific conditions - and not even then all the time. A sandy-colored dog may be hard to see in a desert setting. A mottled grey dog harder to see in dense cover. They can be equally good sheepdogs - equally breedworthy, but one will be easier for the handler to see in certain conditions than others.

Since both conformational types are useful, we see them in the breed - because the breed is based on usefulness. A number of colors appear because despite the color of the dog, it is it's ability that makes it worthy to contribute its genes to the next generation. If a merle or red dog is outstanding it will be more likely to be bred. So those colors remain present in the gene pool. But as has been pointed out by others, either of those colors may be harder to see under certain conditions, whereas a black and white coat can be spotted easily under a greater range of conditions. Imagine a blue merle in a misty, hilly environment. It could all but disappear visually - especially in failing light.

[brndlbc]

Thanks for the answers. I think the term "cultural prejudice" made me think more along the lines of "preferred color" as in one better than the other.

T

[brndlbc]

Imagine a blue merle in a misty, hilly environment. It could all but disappear visually - especially in failing light.

 

Thanks Geonni. I appreciate the image. I have had vizslas for the last 30 years (and still do). Nothing disappears faster than a vizsla who locks up on point in tall grass or fading light. Hence why we stick big bright orange collars on them.....and beepers LOL.

[ThunderHill]

Here's another possible line on why merles (and perhaps also mostly white dogs) may have acquired negative associations, back in the origin of the breed.

 

If I'm remembering very basic merle genetics correctly, merle is not only a dominant gene, it's also associated with various bad, even lethal, recessives. Including mis-development of the eye/eyeball, deafness, and other serious neurological problems. It's "safe" to cross a merle to a different color pattern, because the recessives are normally corrected by the influence of the non-merle genes. A single-gene merle dog is healthy and unaffected by any negative recessives it may carry. But merle-to-merle breedings can bring out those recessives and produce dead or severely crippled pups, if the fetuses make it to term.

 

Surviving pups are often primarily white. And often deaf (in one or both ears), or with various degrees of vision problems. Apparently (unlike some other breeds where there's a strong correlation between white-marked ears and deafness) it's not the white that's the culprit, it's the (double) merle which is causing the white which results in the neurological problems. Mostly white dogs from non merle-to-merle breedings would be "normal" but they'd look much the same from the outside. You'd have to know the parentage and be aware of the double merle issue in order to make a meaningful distinction.

 

Further, successful dogs are often bred back to very closely. This is a big "if." But, if someone way back when had a promising merle dog (not necessarily a national champion, but one doing consistently well, enough to be sought after at a local level) in the days before the genetics of merle-to-merle breedings was understood, and if the owners of that dog and its progeny tried to line breed back to that dog with other merle relatives, it would likely have resulted in a host of persistent but "inexplicable" disaster litters. It would have been all too easy to associate the defects with the merle dogs, without understanding why it happened, and without knowing how simple it would have been to avoid. You'd simply shun the merle dog(s) in the future, their reputation would be poor, and their numbers would continue to be few.

 

And finally, even if you're aware of the potential color-linked problems, not all merle dogs are easy to identify by external examination, as people with Shelties, Aussies and Catahoulas will attest. Not all merles are dramatic or obvious. Sometimes the only visible sign of merle color pattern anywhere on the dog is a small patch just slightly different from the rest -- easy to miss, especially if you have no reason to suspect it might be there. And easy to overlook, if you aren't aware that its presence should be a guide where potential mates are concerned.

 

Just speculation.

 

I hope the people here with much more in-depth understanding of color genetics will correct any accidental mis-information above.

 

Liz S in SCPA

[Rua]

Thanks for the answers. I think the term "cultural prejudice" made me think more along the lines of "preferred color" as in one better than the other.

T

 

Ditto

 

You seem to be confusing practicality under certain situations with the dogs being "sub-par" themselves. Or perhaps something said has led you to believe that. While a certain color or hair coat or ear set may or may not be more or less practical under certain conditions, does not make a dog "sub-par". It may just make that particular type of dog less useful or suitable *in that situation*. The dogs themselves are fine (as long as they do the work) but the situation may demand (or cause to be preferred) something different.

 

For instance, my tipped-earred bitch gets grass seeds in her ears that the doofy-earred (sort of puppy-earred or sailplane-earred) males don't. So, in my case, (as much as I love prick-earred dogs) the kind of ears my males have are much more practical on our farm, and result in fewer problems. Likewise, a slick-coated dog will pick up fewer burrs and/or the ones they pick up will be more easily removed, if that is an issue.

 

Neither type of ear or coat is "sub-par" - but one or the other may be more practical in certain situations and therefore selected for by those who seek the most workable dog in their situation, and for good reason.

 

Thanks for the clarification Sue. As a you state its more of a geographical/terrain prejudice. And to a degree a personal one (i.e. visibility issues) as Geonni states. Is that more of a correct assumption?

[geonni banner]

Here's another possible line on why merles (and perhaps also mostly white dogs) may have acquired negative associations, back in the origin of the breed.

 

If I'm remembering very basic merle genetics correctly, merle is not only a dominant gene, it's also associated with various bad, even lethal, recessives. Including mis-development of the eye/eyeball, deafness, and other serious neurological problems. It's "safe" to cross a merle to a different color pattern, because the recessives are normally corrected by the influence of the non-merle genes. A single-gene merle dog is healthy and unaffected by any negative recessives it may carry. But merle-to-merle breedings can bring out those recessives and produce dead or severely crippled pups, if the fetuses make it to term.

 

Surviving pups are often primarily white. And often deaf (in one or both ears), or with various degrees of vision problems. Apparently (unlike some other breeds where there's a strong correlation between white-marked ears and deafness) it's not the white that's the culprit, it's the (double) merle which is causing the white which results in the neurological problems. Mostly white dogs from non merle-to-merle breedings would be "normal" but they'd look much the same from the outside. You'd have to know the parentage and be aware of the double merle issue in order to make a meaningful distinction.

 

Further, successful dogs are often bred back to very closely. This is a big "if." But, if someone way back when had a promising merle dog (not necessarily a national champion, but one doing consistently well, enough to be sought after at a local level) in the days before the genetics of merle-to-merle breedings was understood, and if the owners of that dog and its progeny tried to line breed back to that dog with other merle relatives, it would likely have resulted in a host of persistent but "inexplicable" disaster litters. It would have been all too easy to associate the defects with the merle dogs, without understanding why it happened, and without knowing how simple it would have been to avoid. You'd simply shun the merle dog(s) in the future, their reputation would be poor, and their numbers would continue to be few.

 

And finally, even if you're aware of the potential color-linked problems, not all merle dogs are easy to identify by external examination, as people with Shelties, Aussies and Catahoulas will attest. Not all merles are dramatic or obvious. Sometimes the only visible sign of merle color pattern anywhere on the dog is a small patch just slightly different from the rest -- easy to miss, especially if you have no reason to suspect it might be there. And easy to overlook, if you aren't aware that its presence should be a guide where potential mates are concerned.

 

Just speculation.

 

I hope the people here with much more in-depth understanding of color genetics will correct any accidental mis-information above.

 

Liz S in SCPA

 

It's all true, and the stigma of the white dog that sometimes results from inbred or tightly linebred merle families has slopped over onto self-colored white dogs. The AKC threw the white German Shepherd Dog out of their ranks - even though white GSDs go back to the very foundation of the breed. There are both self-colored white "Lassie" collies, as well as those resulting from extensive merle-to-merle breedings. Calvin Coolidge had a self-colored white collie. But the prejudice against white persists to the present, even though the genetics of the "lethal whites" are now well understood.

[geonni banner]

While we're on the subject of merles...

I have been told that the sable-merle that sometimes appears among Rough Collies is genetically different form the red merle seen in the Australian Shepherd and the Border Collie. I know that in Collies, a sable-merle is the result of crossing a sable with a blue-merle. I know that the sable-merle appears with brown, blue or parti-colored eyes. Also, the merleing tends to be muddy and indistinct. I once owned a sable-merle Collie, and if I hadn't been familiar with his sire and dam I might easily taken him for a sable. His merleing was minimal - one slightly darker patch on one side, and he also had a few scattered grey hairs near the tips of both ears.

The red merle Australian Shepherds I have seen had an altogether different look than the sable-merle Collies I knew, and their eye color tended to be gold or green. There dark patches were well-defined and rich in color. Some of them had copper or tan markings like those found on a tri-color, but some had none. Their nose leather and eye-rims also were of a reddish color, whereas that of the sable-merle Collies was uniformly black.

In collies, the blue merle is said to arise from the action of a merleing gene on a tricolor coat. There are no red Collies - sable is genetically quite different. Do red merles arise as a product of the merleing gene acting on a red dog?

What happens when you mate a red merle to a blue merle? Do you get pups one or the other color in the litter, or do some have an intermediate hue? Do you run into the lethal white situation there with repeat crossings of red merle to blue merle?

 

Disclaimer: I am in no way interested in breeding Border Collies of any color. I'm too old, fat and neurotic to proof even one dog on my own non-existent sheep, or in trialing venues - let alone a line of dogs!. I'm just curious. And I don't want to consort with color-breeders to get the answers to these questions. If nobody on "this side of the pale" knows the answers to these questions I'll be content to live in ignorance.

[ejano]

Another fact learned....I never knew what to call the boys' ears, though I wouldn't dare tell our little enchanted Celtic fairy princess she has doofy ears. .....when they were pups, they stood straight up for a time - DH used to call Robin's his "devil horns" then Robin's went sideways all at once (I feared he was always going to list to the left) and Brodie's tipped to the front, giving him a winsome, bat-like appearance.

 

 

For instance, my tipped-earred bitch gets grass seeds in her ears that the doofy-earred (sort of puppy-earred or sailplane-earred) males don't ....

[juliepoudrier]

Geonni,

The merle gene acts on the base color, so any other color (black, sable, red) can also be merle if the merle gene is present. That is, you can get a sable merle by crossing sable to merle (I *think*, but given that some breeders out there are producing this color, I'm guessing that's how they do it). Red merle is simply the merle gene acting on a red base coat.

 

In cases where you look at a dog and can't tell whether it's sable or red, the distinctions you note are sufficient to make the determination. A sable dog has a black nose and eye rims and a genetically red (technically liver or brown) has a red nose and eye rims.

 

Merle can act on tri-colored dogs just as it acts on bi-colored dogs. Tri merles will have the typical tri markings in addition to merling of the base coat color.

 

Aside from the obvious issues of breeding merle to merle, black is dominant to red, so I'd guess that unless the blue merle dog also carried recessive red, every mating of the blue merle to the red merle could statistically produce regular blacks (or reds if carrying the recessive red gene), blue merles (or red merles if the blue merle carries recessive red,) and pups that are excessively white. That is, the black (BB) and red (bb) inheritance patterns would remain the same and the merle gene would act in addition to that.

 

Here's what the USBCC website says about merle:

Probably the least common of the Border Collie colors or color patterns is the merle. Merle is a dilution of overall body color--black or red--with streaks or splotches of darker color. If the basic color of the dog is black, the merle version will be a soft gray, often referred to as "blue"; if the dog is red, the merle will be a pale red. Because it is uncommon, it is not always recognized correctly. Importantly, the merle pattern occurs on the colored portion of the body, not the white markings. You will often hear the word "merle" or "merling" used to refer to heavy ticking or freckling within the white markings. These patterns are not true merles. Both merles and dogs with a lot of white on their face tend to have blue eyes, adding to the confusion. Because of certain characteristics of the true merle gene, however, it is very important to understand the difference.

 

Merle is what is known as an epistatic gene; that is, it has an effect on other color genes, not just its own genetic partner. Whatever the basic color genes of the dog--unless he is all white--the merle pattern will cause dilution and splotching. Merle is also, at first glance, dominant. A dog which carries a merle gene will be a merle; only a merle parent can produce a merle puppy. This is, so far, just like the black color, dominant over the red. But merle is different, because it is incompletely dominant. A dog that carries a pair of merle alleles is not just a "pure" or "true-breeding" merle; it has a different color pattern. The "double-merle" dog is mostly white, with a few merle-colored spots. So far, this is OK. Apart from the prejudice against white dogs, we wouldn't particularly care. But the double merle dog has a high probability of serious medical problems. Most of them are completely deaf; many have bad eyes with reduced vision. I think you can see that either of these problems is a serious defect in any dog, but especially in a potentially working dog.

 

The only way this double merle can be produced is by breeding together two merles; in such a cross, one fourth of the pups (statistically) will be solid colored, half will be simple merles, and one fourth will be double merles. The merle gene is very common, and very popular, in the Australian Shepherd breed (they are sometimes called "those little blue dogs"); it is relatively common among Collies and Shelties as well. In these breeds, where showring demands call for "beautiful" color, double merles are occasionally bred on purpose. The double merle will have exclusively merle puppies, and so has a certain special value as a breeding dog, whatever its individual problems. Of course, the deafness and reduced vision are only passed on in future double merles, and not in the simple merle-patterned offspring.

 

In Border Collies, where the gene is far less common--even rare--there is no excuse for accidentally breeding a double merle; and there is never a good reason to do it intentionally. In French, the world merle means "blackbird" and "le merle blanc" ("the white blackbird") is an expression meaning "a person or thing that doesn't exist or cannot be found." This should also be the definition of the white merle dog.

 

ETA: Here's the merle coat color genetics website of Sheila Schmutz at the University of Saskatchewan. This covers a bunch of breeds, but explains what has been discovered with respect to merling of coat colors.

 

And this is what Sue Ann Bowling says about merle genetics. I believe some of the information on this site is out of date, but you might still find the discussion of merle helpful:

M, merle. This is another dilution gene, but instead of diluting the whole coat it causes a patchy dilution, with a black coat becoming gray patched with black. Liver becomes dilute red patched with liver, while sable merles can be distinguished from sables with varying amounts of difficulty. The merling is reportedly clearly visible at birth, but may fade to little more than a possible slight mottling of ear tips as an adult. Merling on the tan points of a merled black and tan is not immediately obvious, either, though it does show if mask factor is present, and may be discernable under a microscope. Eyes of an Mm dog are sometimes blue or merled (brown and blue segments in the eye.)

 

Although merle is generally treated as a dominant gene, it is in fact an incomplete dominant or a gene with intermediate expression. An mm dog is normal color (no merling). A Mm dog is merled. But an MM dog has much more white than is normal for the breed (almost all white in Shelties) and may have hearing loss, vision problems including small or missing eyes, and possible infertility (Little). The health effects seem worse if a gene for white markings is also present. Thus the dachsund, which is normally lacking white markings, has dapples (Mm) and double dapples (MM) the latter often having considerable white, but according to Little other effects are limited to smaller than normal eyes. In Shelties, Collies, Border Collies, and Australian Shepherds, all of which normally have fairly extensive white markings, the MM white has a strong probability of being deaf or blind. The same is probably true with double merle Foxhounds and double merles from Harlequin Great Danes with the desired white chest. A few double merles of good quality have been kept and bred from, as a MM double merle to mm black breeding is the only one that will produce 100% merles.

 

It is possible that merle is a "fragile" gene, with M having a relatively high probability of mutating back to m. The observed pattern would then be the result of some clones of melanocytes having suffered such a back mutaion to mm while they are migrating to their final site in the skin, producing the black patches, while others remained Mm. This hypothesis also explains why a double merle to black breeding occasionally produces a black puppy, the proposed back mutation in this case occurring in a germ cell. On the other hand, the observed blacks from this ype of breeding may actually be cryptic merles - genetically Mm, but with the random black patches covering virtually all of the coat.

 

The merle gene has now been sequenced, though no commercial test is available.

 

J.

[DeltaBluez Tess]

>>Sorry Diane I only included you because you are someone Julie can identify with and respect. She would know you dont breed for color.

<<

 

Let's just say I get an email from Julie stating her friend, Jane Doe should bred Roo to her non-red bitch. First thing, I would do is ask Julie, "why" and if it was in regards to it being a good working nick, I would consider it. That is after I evaluated the bitch and the pups would be better than the parents. However, if the bitch in question was red, I would really, really have to be convinced to do the breeding...but Julie's recommendation does carry weight, I would think hard about it...otherwise my "red radar" goes on.....

 

Scott said Roo is the best son out of Pleat...and too bad he was red. He is not enamored of red dogs but he finished out Lucy for me for Open (red female- Tess granddtr) and he wanted to buy her. She had to be a extra special dog for him to consider buying a red dog. That was a honor.

 

When a red dog runs on the trial field a lot of people watch and if they do badly, they say "Red dogs are no good" but if the same problem happens with a black/white dog, they don't say anything....when I ran Roo and Lucy, they were under the microscope. Needless to say, I felt like they had to do better than my b/w dogs in sheepdog trials. In cowdog trials, they seem to like red dogs.

 

To me the outside (color) doesn't matter, it's what is inside them. Some people like what is on the oustide and not what is inside. They have it backwards.

[geonni banner]

Thanks Julie! That's very helpful! Now I'm off to look for Catahoula color genetics pages, as I've never seen a non-merle Catahoula, and doG knows, that'd be a genetic train-wreck if it were true...

 

Edited to add:

 

Here's two sites worth a look...

 

Cat’s Cradle Catahoulas

http://www.bconnex.net/~langevin/html/a_matter_of_color.html

 

The Catahoula Breed

Shows several pictures of non-merle (or cryptic merle) Catahoulas

http://www.blackoakcatahoulas.com/breed.html

[geonni banner]

Scott said Roo is the best son out of Pleat...and too bad he was red. He is not enamored of red dogs but he finished out Lucy for me for Open (red female- Tess granddtr) and he wanted to buy her. She had to be a extra special dog for him to consider buying a red dog. That was a honor.

 

When a red dog runs on the trial field a lot of people watch and if they do badly, they say "Red dogs are no good" but if the same problem happens with a black/white dog, they don't say anything....when I ran Roo and Lucy, they were under the microscope. Needless to say, I felt like they had to do better than my b/w dogs in sheepdog trials. In cowdog trials, they seem to like red dogs.

 

To me the outside (color) doesn't matter, it's what is inside them. Some people like what is on the oustide and not what is inside. They have it backwards.

 

Kind of OT, but this reminds me of a saying I hear now and then. It's typically said of African Americans. A person hearing of an individual of particularly high character or really excelling in some field, and they say, "That man/woman is a credit to his/her race." Now, when was the last time you heard someone say that about a white guy or woman?

[Dal & Mad's Mom]

Thanks Julie! That's very helpful! Now I'm off to look for Catahoula color genetics pages, as I've never seen a non-merle Catahoula, and doG knows, that'd be a genetic train-wreck if it were true...

 

Edited to add:

 

Here's two sites worth a look...

 

Cat’s Cradle Catahoulas

http://www.bconnex.net/~langevin/html/a_matter_of_color.html

 

The Catahoula Breed

Shows several pictures of non-merle (or cryptic merle) Catahoulas

http://www.blackoakcatahoulas.com/breed.html

 

 

We had pups that were mixed with airdale they were a huge square faced merle wire hair, small Black and tan wire hair and Merle smooth coat. From what I read I think the black and tan is also a common coloration of catahoula. Of the 3 choices I loved the small black and tan wirehair best. He also screamed like a woman when he was surprised or happy. Too funny but, also too difficult in our rescue.

 

Diane since I'm in rescue my job is to clean up people's messes and I never plan to breed a thing in my life. Currently we have a deaf and partially blind mostly white red merle that the people abandoned at the shelter after 3 years. We have speutered another mans merles since he was very elderly and kept letting them accidently breed. We have placed 7 blind and deaf merle/merle pups this year.

 

I'm just an advocate that if tell people they are making a mistake buying then you have to give them the correct alternatives even if it's privately.

 

My total answer here should be everyone should adopt but, to be honest it's not suitable for everyone. I have someone asking me for a working dog now and I cant promise anything I have can work. although dogs I've placed are currently working small farms and starting trialing.

[DeltaBluez Tess]

I've done rescue for years and have cleaned up other peoples messes.....it amazes me. I have had rescues that stayed also.

 

I know breeders who take back their dogs with no questions...I do that and do not judge the person who returns the dog. I am happy that they did. I don't like breeders who wash their hands of their pups once it has left.

 

When I finally made my decision to bred Tess (well after the working, health tests etc) I called up my mentor and we talked...still to this day, if I do a breeding, I talk to him for his opinion. You want to bred the best to the best.

[Donald McCaig]

Dear Doggers,

 

Ms. Brndlbc' wrote,

Is it unreasonable for those of us new and trying to learn to be confused when we read things like this?

 

"Because of cultural prejudice, pups would be harder to put in the hands of those who might prove them and for me more important, against West Texas or Dakota vegetation at 800 yards merles or reds are harder to see".

To me, I read this quote as saying that the colors of merle and red would be subpar to black and white at a distance in those conditions. Am I taking that wrong?

 

 

I can't understand why this is confusing. Still . . .

 

Since I have and may trial under said circumstances, dog "pop" is more important to me than it might be to a small farmer who never trials and whose dog work is close at hand. And yes, within sheepdog culture there is a cultural prejudice against merles, all white dogs, BeardieX and Kelpies - although I have seen a very few first class examples of each. So?

 

The very best sheepdogs, sheep and cattledog trial winners. possess different excellences. Some are brilliant "natural" dogs: perfectly balanced dogs that can find sheep no matter where they've hidden. Some are exquisitely biddable. Some are unusually kind to their sheep, others are fearless. Top dogs will possess these qualities in different proportions and may suit equally skilled handlers - or not. There are famous sheepdogs I wouldn't want to run.

 

Finding the sheepdog that suits you is difficult and often expensive. Most top handlers try many well bred, well nurtured, well trained dogs before they settle on the Dog of their Heart.

 

It is so hard to evaluate a prospective dog's character and potential the seller's character and abilities may come into play.

At a Scottish National, a canny Scot said "You want the dog that has done well for a beginner. Top handlers can make any dog look good."

 

The Dog Fancy, where colors can win, lose or disqualify a show dog has expended reams of thought to color inheritance. Bless their hearts.

 

Sheepdog thinking/training/ work is to conventional dog thinking as Finnish is to Arabic. Moving from the Dog Fancy to Sheepdogging where previously held and happily debated truths are . . . er . . . irrelevant . . .must be confusing.

 

Like every sheepdog novice on these boards, I learn more about these beautiful dogs every time I take them out. Sheepdogging gets better the more you know and perhaps I can help one or two novices make swifter progress than I did.

 

Ignore colors and conformation; you have complex, subtle, unfamiliar riches to understand and too few hours in the day.

 

Find a mentor - someone of genuine accomplishment who speaks to your condition.

 

Buy the very best dog you can afford and learn from it.

 

Be humble. Work hard. Trust your dog and help him become the brilliant creature he yearns to be.

 

Donald McCaig

[NCStarkey]

Hello everyone,

 

Diane wrote, "To me the outside (color) doesn't matter, it's what is inside them. Some people like what is on the oustide and not what is inside. They have it backwards."

 

Thanks, Diane....very well said!!!!

 

Regards,

nancy

[NCStarkey]

Hello everyone,

 

Donald wrote:

 

"Like every sheepdog novice on these boards, I learn more about these beautiful dogs every time I take them out. Sheepdogging gets better the more you know and perhaps I can help one or two novices make swifter progress than I did.

 

Ignore colors and conformation; you have complex, subtle, unfamiliar riches to understand and too few hours in the day.

 

Find a mentor - someone of genuine accomplishment who speaks to your condition.

 

Buy the very best dog you can afford and learn from it.

 

Be humble. Work hard. Trust your dog and help him become the brilliant creature he yearns to be."

 

Thank you, Donald, for another very poignant post.

 

Regards,

nancy

[Shoofly]

Donald wrote "Like every sheepdog novice on these boards, I learn more about these beautiful dogs every time I take them out. Sheepdogging gets better the more you know and perhaps I can help one or two novices make swifter progress than I did."

 

I just spent a week running at the national finals, from nursery to the top 17, and probably more than anything else, i'd call it a learning experience. I know more about what i need in my dogs, i know more about what's in my dogs, i know more about what i need to train on with them and future dogs, and more about what i want in future dogs in terms of bred in qualities. If you think you know what you're talking about with these dogs, keep plugging away and you'll feel uneducated again soon enough. It's a big part of what i love about it, there's always more to learn and you don't know what you don't know until you know it. The only way to get that knowledge is to move along so you can see things from higher and higher levels.

 

And i definitely remember the days when i was still very novice but thought i had it all figured out! It's a very common thing, maybe just human nature.

[ejano]

Robin, you and your Bill are a true inspiration. I didn't get to see the entire weekend, but I made sure to watch you and Bill because of the your journey through the breadth of Finals week. I hope we get to see you again!

 

Liz

 

Donald wrote "Like every sheepdog novice on these boards, I learn more about these beautiful dogs every time I take them out. Sheepdogging gets better the more you know and perhaps I can help one or two novices make swifter progress than I did."

 

I just spent a week running at the national finals, from nursery to the top 17, and probably more than anything else, i'd call it a learning experience. I know more about what i need in my dogs, i know more about what's in my dogs, i know more about what i need to train on with them and future dogs, and more about what i want in future dogs in terms of bred in qualities. If you think you know what you're talking about with these dogs, keep plugging away and you'll feel uneducated again soon enough. It's a big part of what i love about it, there's always more to learn and you don't know what you don't know until you know it. The only way to get that knowledge is to move along so you can see things from higher and higher levels.

 

And i definitely remember the days when i was still very novice but thought i had it all figured out! It's a very common thing, maybe just human nature.

[Dalesred]

Well, I live in a misty hilly environemtn in the Yorkshire Pennines, and Rhiw stands out at dark rather better than Meg. But Meg, is, umm, totally black

 

We bought him at a sheepdog sale in Wales; not part of the auction - just an informal sale, along with amny other pups on the field. At that point needless to say I knew very little about the genetics or politics of colour, although he was from working parents.

 

One eye is half blue and he had an undescenced testicle too. I live in sheep country, and was quite surprsised at teh interest I had in him from farmers and shepherds - he's an extremely responsive and alert dog but by then I had learend about the prejudice against merles -well founded though it is - colour hard to spot, natural conservatism, genetic defects and so on.

 

I totally 'get' the issue of breeding for working ability alone, but given the same choice, should I have chosen one of the more conventionally coloured pups, over my merle, even though he was from working stock, and I ahd no intention of trialling, still less of breeding?

 

Another thing I've noticed happening when I ask people about their dogs is that people refer to the colour of the dog as if the colour itself is the breed. Which always annoys me!

[Shoofly]

Aww thanks! Bill and Zac are both special dogs and i'm lucky to have them.

 

Robin, you and your Bill are a true inspiration. I didn't get to see the entire weekend, but I made sure to watch you and Bill because of the your journey through the breadth of Finals week. I hope we get to see you again!

 

Liz

[C Crocker]

Aww thanks! Bill and Zac are both special dogs and i'm lucky to have them.

 

 

Yes , congratulations on such a fine Finals. I was not able to follow much on webcast due to work, but saw some and read the twitter log which was great. Refresh my memory--is Zac a young dog or were both Nursery and Open?

 

I understand you met Nancy's Clint. Isn't he a cutie? I have the female lookalike to him from that litter. I love her--just like a grown dog in a little body.

 

Carolyn

[Shoofly]

I'd have stolen that puppy if i could! Actually, i did steal him for a while, and drug him around with me at the trial. I think you should send me that female if she's a cute as Nancy's!

 

Zac just turned 6 and Bill just turned 3.

 

Yes , congratulations on such a fine Finals. I was not able to follow much on webcast due to work, but saw some and read the twitter log which was great. Refresh my memory--is Zac a young dog or were both Nursery and Open?

 

I understand you met Nancy's Clint. Isn't he a cutie? I have the female lookalike to him from that litter. I love her--just like a grown dog in a little body.

 

Carolyn

[jdarling]

Working lines with Merle?, are there any right now?

 

Well, it's been several days since this thread started, and despite being asked by Ejano about the reasoning behind the question, the OP has not responded.

 

So ... I'm asking ... Benjamin Buttons ... why is it that you're asking about merles with working lines? Are you looking at getting a working dog? If so, why a merle? If not, what's the interest with merles? Is it just casual curiosity like it was when you asked about Hob Nob?