Working lines with Merle?

[ejano]

I could make money hand over fist if I bred Roo, every time

someone wanted to use him for color. I chose to stay poor

 

Diane

 

 

I just want to hold my hand up and say that my red dog was not bred for color -- he just popped out, in the manner Liz P described. And as Diane noted, if he weren't neutered, I might be able to make enough money with a certain crowd of folks to pay for herding lessons...if I were willing to compromise certain values. I often feel badly for him because he is red -- apparently second class....

 

ETA -- I thought I'd better add that Robin's bone structure holds more appeal to me than his coat, actually....I like a heavier boned BC. Brodie may float through the air and he's certainly strong enough, but when you lay a hand on Robin, you know he's got some real substance beneath his coat (Plus, he has the advantage of not looking underfed). I will also add that there's not a person I've met outside the BC community that hasn't stopped to remark on Robin's coat and eye color -- they don't know what he is...but they love him -- so I can acknowledge the danger inherit in unusual colors.

 

 

 

And - I want to congratulate Benjamin Button. He's got everyone fussing again.... student of sociology? psychology? ethnology?

 

Or, just bored?

 

Liz

[juliepoudrier]

I'm not saying give them a name of a color breeder I'm saying give them the name of a proven dog who may have the color they want. If Diane bred Roo as she just mentioned would you accuse her of color breeding.

 

Let me see if I can make this perfectly clear. Yes, Roo is a red dog. I suppose if Diane went searching for a red bitch to breed him to, then yes, I'd wonder what her main impetus for the breeding is. But since she doesn't have a website full of dogs of color that she uses for breeding *and* she's already stated she would turn down folks who wanted to breed to her dog because of his color, then I don't think she would qualify as a color breeder. I don't think Dick Williams qualifies as a color breeder, either, though I know nothing about his breeding program and have no idea how he ended up with a merle dog, if that's the parallel you're trying to draw. But if either of them or others like them were to succumb to the idea that they should breed their dog because there's a *market* for working dogs in special colors (which is what you seem to be implying: JQ wants a red merle working dog, so let's steer him to someone willing to breed for the sole reason that folks out there want merles), then I would say that they are breeding for the wrong reasons, and I wouldn't suggest them as a good breeder, just as I would say the same thing about someone breeding little tiny working border collies just because there's a market for miniature anything and someone wants a miniature working dog to go with their babydoll Southdown sheep.

 

Now back to Roo. I have never seen Roo work. I live on the opposite coast from Diane. I am not going to recommend any dog of any color to someone if I don't know something about the dog *personally.* I can see the color of the dog from photos, but unless I have seen the dog working , or someone I trust has seen the dog working and reports back to me, I wouldn't recommend it period, even if it were purple or acclaimed as the most beautiful dog on the planet.

 

I think your Lumping everyone who has a colored dog in the same bunch.

 

I'm not the one lumping everyone who has a colored dog into the same bunch. That would be Liz P., who called me a color breeder because I *own* three red dogs, never mind that no litter has been produced from any of them. I *am* lumping breeders of "special" colors together because as has already been pointed out, some colors have to be bred *for* whereas others just show up sometimes, without having to be bred for. That shouldn't be a difficult genetics concept for people to understand.

 

Then I think it's up to the breeder to decide if thye would sell to the person and put a breeding restriction on the dog or not.

 

Sure. But if someone asks *me* then they apparently are interested in my opinion, and so I will give it. You may not agree with my opinion and if that same person were to ask you for breeder recommendations, you would be free to suggest anyone you wanted to them. But telling me I'm unfair and elitist because I stand by my own beliefs is just a little odd, don't you think?

 

In my opinion Border collie breeders dont put enough restriction on breeding. More puppies should be fixed up front. JMHO

Up till now this hasn't been part of the discussion. And up until border collies exploded into popularity outside the working dog world, it probably wasn't a big issue. Now it is, and I agree wtih you. But this is America and we all believe in our right to do as we wish with our property. If I refuse to sell a breedable lilac puppy to the guy down the road, you can rest assured that someone else will come along who will. So I can only stand by my principles.

 

J.

[Dal & Mad's Mom]

I just want to hold my hand up and say that my red dog was not bred for color -- he just popped out, in the manner Liz P described. And as Diane noted, if he weren't neutered, I might be able to make enough money with a certain crowd of folks to pay for herding lessons...if I were willing to compromise certain values. I often feel badly for him because he is red -- apparently second class....

 

ETA -- I thought I'd better add that Robin's bone structure holds more appeal to me than his coat, actually....I like a heavier boned BC. Brodie may float through the air and he's certainly strong enough, but when you lay a hand on Robin, you know he's got some real substance beneath his coat (Plus, he has the advantage of not looking underfed). I will also add that there's not a person I've met outside the BC community that hasn't stopped to remark on Robin's coat and eye color -- they don't know what he is...but they love him -- so I can acknowledge the danger inherit in unusual colors.

And - I want to congratulate Benjamin Button. He's got everyone fussing again.... student of sociology? psychology? ethnology?

 

Or, just bored?

 

Liz

 

 

Your dog didnt pop out Red by accident he is from a long line of red dogs his great grandparents are both red and is his grandmother. It's just that you weren't aware. Your Dogs grand sire is a mostly white pattern white dog. Oh and he has a huge beard.

[DeltaBluez Tess]

Roo was a pup from Tess x Pleat. Tess was B/w and Pleat was a tri...imagine my surprise when two red pups popped out. Ironically enough, the other red female(Koko) from that same litter is one of, if not the top red dog last year in points. Roo proved himself in the Cattledog Nursery Finals and also ran last yr in the Sheepdog Finals. Was Koko bred? Nope. Roo was bred by his former owner to a working b/wcattle dog. I have yet to bred Roo but my plans are to bred him to a b/w (Faye) that will be a good nick. I don't bred for color and have turned down lots of "want to bred him for color" as well as "I want to buy him for color" and most of all, "I want to buy him and register him in AKC and bred him."

 

 

I don't breed for color, never have and never will. I breed for what they should be bred for.....working.

[Liz P]

Breeders A, B and C all run consistently in Open with their dogs. They all have 4 generations of successful Open dogs in their kennel. Each one keeps a bitch line and finds outside studs to use (this is a common practice among working dog people). Their dogs prove their quality both on the farm and trial field. They don't breed every pup they keep, only the ones who prove themselves. They all sound like responsible breeders, right?

 

Now let's give some more information.

 

Breeder A has a line of black and white dogs that tends to throw a lot of white and white heads, but breeder A doesn't like a lot of white on her dogs. When choosing a pup to keep from her litter of careful matched working parents she tends to keep the darker pups.

 

No one questions a breeder like this, and there are many out there.

 

Breeder B started with a red bitch as her first dog. She loves the color, so when her red bitch has proven herself on the trial field and farm she chooses a stud who carries red that she thinks also compliments her as a working dog. Over her 4 generations of Open dogs she chooses to keep only the red pups and carefully breeds to sires who will throw red.

 

Clearly other handlers are concerned about breeder B because she is making breeding decisions based on color. Because red is recessive she has to really restrict her choice of studs in order to produce red pups in every litter. I agree fully that this is a bad situation that could easily lead to the production of a line of red dogs that just can't measure up.

 

On to breeder C who started with a merle bitch. Like the first 2 breeders she competes in Open and her dogs do well on the farm and the trial field. When it comes time to breed her bitch she goes out and chooses a stud who she thinks compliments her dog based on working characteristics. Because merle is dominant, not recessive, no matter what color stud she chooses she will statistically get 50% merle pups. She likes merle, so that is what she keeps for each subsequent generation. Again, no matter what color stud she chooses she gets merles because it is a dominant trait. Like breeder A she doesn't breed every pup she keeps, only the ones who prove themselves.

 

So what is the difference between breeders A and C other than the bias against merle?

 

Flip that argument to someone who owns a good working bitch. She is looking for a stud for her dog and likes the merle color pattern. What are the odds of her finding a stud that is also merle? I would agree completely that they are beyond dismal, but this is totally different than the situation I just described with the 3 breeders who keep a bitch line.

 

I don't own merles. I'm just playing the devils advocate in this thread.

[Jack & Co.]

The man who wants to breed for working ability and coat color is a fool.

 

As the Bible says: "A man cannot serve two Masters."

 

Awesome.

[Liz P]

Diane, my point was not that you breed for color, but that sometimes people who breed for good working dogs also happen to have colored dogs and that we shouldn't label those people as color breeders just because they happen to own said dogs. Wow, that was a horrible run on sentence.

[juliepoudrier]

This is information from the USBCC. If you go to the website that hosts this forum, you can find the full article.

 

On the prevalence of red dogs:

More importantly, the red gene is present in some of our favorite breeding lines. The first recorded red Border Collie was a bitch named Wylie, grandmother of the famous Dickson's Hemp (153). The recessive gene passed through the generations to J. M. Wilson's Cap (3036) who appears in the pedigree of Wiston Cap at least 16 times! Wiston Cap carried the red gene and passed it to many of his sons and daughters. Our current Border Collies tend to have many crosses of Wiston Cap in their background; each one increases the chances of receiving that e gene. Crosses on both sides of the family, likewise, increase the chances of a double dose and the appearance of more and more red dogs. These dogs are beginning to convince even the traditionalist that a red dog can do the job.

 

From the above it's easy to see that red can be carried through lines and pop up unexpectedly. Likewise, one can breed two dogs thought to carry red and not get a single red pup. The same doesn't hold true for the merle color pattern.

 

J.

[Dal & Mad's Mom]

Roo was a pup from Tess x Pleat. Tess was B/w and Pleat was a tri...imagine my surprise when two red pups popped out. Ironically enough, the other red female(Koko) from that same litter is one of, if not the top red dog last year in points. Roo proved himself in the Cattledog Nursery Finals and also ran last yr in the Sheepdog Finals. Was Koko bred? Nope. Roo was bred by his former owner to a working b/wcattle dog. I have yet to bred Roo but my plans are to bred him to a b/w (Faye) that will be a good nick. I don't bred for color and have turned down lots of "want to bred him for color" as well as "I want to buy him for color" and most of all, "I want to buy him and register him in AKC and bred him."

I don't breed for color, never have and never will. I breed for what they should be bred for.....working.

 

 

Sorry Diane I only included you because you are someone Julie can identify with and respect. She would know you dont breed for color.

[juliepoudrier]

Your dog didnt pop out Red by accident he is from a long line of red dogs his great grandparents are both red and is his grandmother. It's just that you weren't aware. Your Dogs grand sire is a mostly white pattern white dog. Oh and he has a huge beard.

Oh good grief! Did the breeder deliberately put two red dogs together to produce red puppies for a market that wants red puppies? Great grands and grands who are red don't even begin to guarantee red pups in any litter two generations off. So Robin could indeed have been something of a surprise.

 

J.

[ejano]

Yes, there are red dogs on the line to which you refer -- but my point was Robin's litter wasn't bred for color but for work.

Liz

 

 

 

Your dog didnt pop out Red by accident he is from a long line of red dogs his great grandparents are both red and is his grandmother. It's just that you weren't aware. Your Dogs grand sire is a mostly white pattern white dog. Oh and he has a huge beard.

[Dal & Mad's Mom]

Oh good grief! Did the breeder deliberately put two red dogs together to produce red puppies for a market that wants red puppies? Great grands and grands who are red don't even begin to guarantee red pups in any litter two generations off. So Robin could indeed have been something of a surprise.

 

J.

 

 

So you buy a puppy who has a red parent and red pups in it's litter and it's a surprise it has red pups? Gosh I havent been paying attention.

[ejano]

Robin is always a surprise . Yesterday I discovered he's white factored.

 

The red dogs to which Dal and Mal refers - the maternal great grands and the grandmother according to my pups papers, are from a kennel out west ..they're still in business and their reputation has gone from herding dogs to sport/agility. A hiccup in otherwise respectable family tree. ETA - That kennel may well have bred red x red - very plausible.

 

My pups' parents were a white patterned female (like Brodie) and the standard black and white rough coat BC, so yes, Robin was something of a surprise. The breeder was looking for dogs that would work, not colors.

 

 

 

 

Oh good grief! Did the breeder deliberately put two red dogs together to produce red puppies for a market that wants red puppies? Great grands and grands who are red don't even begin to guarantee red pups in any litter two generations off. So Robin could indeed have been something of a surprise.

 

J.

[juliepoudrier]

So you buy a puppy who has a red parent and red pups in it's litter and it's a surprise it has red pups? Gosh I havent been paying attention.

Apparently not, since it's quite possible to breed a red dog to a non-red dog and get NO red puppies.

 

J.

[Dal & Mad's Mom]

Robin is always a surprise . Yesterday I discovered he's white factored.

 

The red dogs to which Dal and Mal refers - the maternal great grands and the grandmother according to my pups papers, are from a kennel out west ..they're still in business and they're reputation has gone from herding dogs to sport/agility. A hiccup in otherwise respectable family tree.

 

 

Ejano your dogs grandmother is owned by my mother. She is most likely a sneaky white factor too but, more than that I would be dredging dirty laundy on her previous owner/ breeder.

 

I came back to edit to tell you that theri grandfather is owned by a girl in the mass area who used to post all the time on the border collie resuce boards he is an amazing frisbee player.

 

Penny was my primary training dog when I was taking lessons per Walt who saw her she does have a good eye and some natural talent.

[Laurae]

A friend of mine bred her red dog to her black and white bitch, and there were eleven puppies in the litter.

 

Not a one of them was red. None.

 

With recessive genes, you just don't know when they'll pop up.

[ejano]

Sheryl, I know Penny's history. And I know my pups entire pedigree and the (various) purpose(s) for which they were bred -ETA the one line is clearly now sport/agility with an emphasis on flashy color - the rest are trial lines.

 

ETA -- sorry this post "left the gate" before I was done. I'm glad to hear that others of Penny's line are doing well... they were in a bad situation.

 

The Penny pup that was purchased by the person who eventually bred my pups is a delightful, talented farm dog working sheep, goats, and chickens, every day. She's a great girl - she's not red - she looks like Brodie. She won't be having any more puppies either. My Robin was her only red male pup. Lucky me . Brodie has her special grace and movement. Robin seems to take after "Pa's" side in build and movement - except Pa was a standard black and white rough coat. Robin doesn't t float above the field. He owns it.

 

They're healthy, bright, good tempered, eager to learn, with energy to burn - everything one would wish for. Wish us the best. We're off for lessons next week.

 

And send me a pic of that bearded fellow!

 

Liz

[Dal & Mad's Mom]

Sheryl, I know Penny's history. And I know my pups entire pedigree and the purpose for which they were bred.

 

 

Im not totally postive you do since you werent on the rescue side but, they are good dogs.

[Rua]

I often feel badly for him because he is red -- apparently second class....

 

 

So are all colorations bar Black/White considered second class?

 

Just asking because when you look back thought the pictorial history of BC, herding collies/drover dogs there is a wide selection. I also thought it was one of the defining points of the breed, that the dogs color was irrelevant it was work ability.

 

I can understand using the "breed for color" as a way to separate out the bad breeders. Because folks like that are only after trying to dupe folks into thinking color n show is important. SO yes it IS important, but for other reasons, I.E. weeding out bad breeders and their breed lines.

 

But isn't it wrong to label other colors as sub-par? I was under the assumption that as long as the dog lived up to it's working standard that color wasn't in issue. Like coat type/eye color. Just wondering is all.

[MagRam]

Its funny that I have been hopping back and forth betweeb this thread and an IM series with my trainer/purchasing agent trying to negotiate a dog purchase for me. ith all this talk of breeding/buying for color we got all the way through the negotiations without me asking what color or coat type until after negotiations were essentially done. All that I needed to know is that someone I trust implicitly with regard to evaluating dogs and has actually seen the dog work and knows my handling skills said it would be a good match. Then it is only about reaching a fair price. Color and coat have nothing to do with the decision - although I do admit to having preferences - just no part of the decision.

[Sue R]

So are all colorations bar Black/White considered second class?...But isn't it wrong to label other colors as sub-par? I was under the assumption that as long as the dog lived up to it's working standard that color wasn't in issue. Like coat type/eye color. Just wondering is all.

Who has said that any color is "sub-par"? The whole point is that color is irrelevant, but chosing to breed for color is counterproductive.

 

PS - I realize that someone may prefer a characteristic, like short coat in certain areas/climates, but limiting one's breeding choices for irrelevant characteristics is my concern.

[juliepoudrier]

So are all colorations bar Black/White considered second class?

Sigh. Where did anyone say the other colors are subpar? Seriously. Yep, you can go back through old books and see all sorts of colors, shapes, and sizes. But the predominant colors found in working border collies happen to be B&W, black tri, and red (the latter for reasons already stated). Of course one can argue that merle isn't represented simply because old shepherds didn't like the color so never gave those dogs a chance to add to the gene pool. And that could certainly be the case. But it doesn't change the fact that certain colors generally are not found in any great number in the working-bred border collie gene pool.

 

No one is saying that merles are *inferior* *because* of their color, but that breeding choices made to include color of necessity are probably compromising on working ability in order to get that color. That is, if someone has a lovely bitch and there are X number of studs that would be a great match to produce good workers but that person also wanted to get merle puppies, then that person would necessarily limit breeding choices significantly, and thus might be choosing the inferior dog to cross with her bitch just so she can get a particular color. That doesn't mean the dog himself is inferior to all the dogs of other colors, just that he might be the inferior choice for that particular cross. Does that make sense?

 

I know I've used this analogy before, but I'll trot (no pun intended) it out again. The preponderence of thoroughbreds you see in the winner's circle are bays, browns, and chestnuts. Say you want to breed thoroughbreds and you want to win the KY Derby. You have a lovely grey horse who is a talented stakes winner and could certainly produce other stakes winners when bred to the right bloodlines. Then say you add on the criterion that all foals you produce must be grey. Suddenly you've narrowed down your choice of sires to only those who will throw grey foals. They could be perfectly good racehorses in their own right, but they may not be the bloodlines that would cross well enough with your own grey mare to create that elusive KY Derby winner. So you have a dilemma: Do you stick with the grey criterion, even though you know it's going to produce a bunch of foals that likely won't win the KY Derby or any stakes race, or do you give up that color criterion and breed your mare to the best possible sire--the one most likely to produce that KY Derby, and perhaps even Triple Crown, winner? If your goal is to stack the odds in your favor to end up with a winner, you're going to give up that color criterion. If your goal is to prove that grey horses can run, then you won't give up that color criterion, but it will take you a whole lot longer (and that's being generous, because it's more likely it won't happen at all) to get there than if you just bred the best horse to the best horse, color be damned.

 

In this scenario, no one is saying that the grey mare is inferior, nor are they saying that the stallion who produces grey is inferior, but rather that introducing an extraneous characteristic into the breeding equation does change the choices that will be made, and not likely for the better.

 

J.

[brndlbc]

Sigh. Where did anyone say the other colors are subpar?J.

 

Is it unreasonable for those of us new and trying to learn to be confused when we read things like this?

 

"Because of cultural prejudice, pups would be harder to put in the hands of those who might prove them and for me more important, against West Texas or Dakota vegetation at 800 yards merles or reds are harder to see".

 

 

To me, I read this quote as saying that the colors of merle and red would be subpar to black and white at a distance in those conditions. Am I taking that wrong?

[Rua]

Is it unreasonable for those of us new and trying to learn to be confused when we read things like this?

 

"Because of cultural prejudice, pups would be harder to put in the hands of those who might prove them and for me more important, against West Texas or Dakota vegetation at 800 yards merles or reds are harder to see".

To me, I read this quote as saying that the colors of merle and red would be subpar to black and white at a distance in those conditions. Am I taking that wrong?

 

 

Exactly. I didn't SAY anyone said they were sub par. It is alluded to though. Hence why I asked.

[juliepoudrier]

Tim,

As I'm sure you know, defining the term subpar under very specific conditions vs. using the term subpar generally are two vastly different things. The information you quoted was presented as a reason why the shepherds who created the border collie breed might originally have been prejudiced against those colors. It has to do with the work those shepherds needed the dog to do and how they chose which dogs to breed from. It does not say that X color is in general a subpar worker; it simply says that if you want to be able to see your dog at great distances over certain terrains, one color might be a disadvantage compared to another. Of course you can choose to interpret that as meaning that all non-B&W dogs are subpar, but that's a choice you as an individual are making in your interpretation of a comment taken out of context (the context being the whole discussion of why some colors were originally disfavored compared to others). Note that since the folks who developed the breed are no longer here to tell us their reasoning, we have to speculate, but from my own experience, as noted earlier in this thread, I can say that certain of my dogs are easier to see than others at a distance. The funny thing is that the mostly white dog is easiest to see, but most folks wouldn't touch a white dog with a 10-foot-pole because of another long-held belief: that sheep won't respect a mostly white dog.

 

I don't take offense at folks who say that. They have their reasons for believing it, even if those reasons are ones that have been handed down over the mists of time without hard data to back it up. In the quote above, the poster is saying that cultural prejudice means that a particular color of dog (for example, my white dog) might not be given the chance to be proven in the work by a top hand. Those same sorts of prejudices were probably in play in the early development of the breed, which would explain why a dominant color like merle came to be nearly non-existent in the working population. If no one liked merle dogs or wanted to work with merle dogs (for whatever the reason) then those dogs simply wouldn't have been worked or bred from.

 

J.