Working lines with Merle?

[MyTDogs]

Hi Liz,

 

I think Julie & LizP already answered for me but as I said, it never even occurred to me before getting LeeRoy. It doesn't help that he is small but he really just blends right into the background. His red is almost identical to the thatch in the grass.

 

My BC girls are both white factored, one very white- except when pretending to be a blue, see my avatar- and the other ~50% white but she is heavily ticked. So perhaps my color bias is towards lots o' white. It sure does make seeing them in the dark much easier.

 

Here is a quick pic:

 

 

Cindy in FL

 

Just curious, but why would a red and white dog fade any faster in the dusk than a black and white dog? I have, (as you can see from the the signature photo) a black and white, a red tri, and a white factored and if you want to see a dog at dusk, choose the white factored...Ladybug and Robin are about equal in their "disappearing factor" to my eye but I can always spot Brodie.

 

ETA -- I should have said "mostly white" not white factored... apologies...

 

Liz

[ejano]

They're all beautiful! I understand about LeeRoy -- when Robin's back is turned, I have definitely noticed with the change of season that he easily blends in with the golden rod and the bracken...(there's a pic in the photo gallery) and disappears before my eyes....thank goodness for hard work on a solid recall.

 

Hi Liz,

 

I think Julie & LizP already answered for me but as I said, it never even occurred to me before getting LeeRoy. It doesn't help that he is small but he really just blends right into the background. His red is almost identical to the thatch in the grass.

 

My BC girls are both white factored, one very white- except when pretending to be a blue, see my avatar- and the other ~50% white but she is heavily ticked. So perhaps my color bias is towards lots o' white. It sure does make seeing them in the dark much easier.

 

Here is a quick pic:

 

 

Cindy in FL

[DeltaBluez Tess]

Mirk was not able to sire pups so he was fixed...I really like how he worked at the Klamath Finals several years ago

[Liz P]

If you like those lines that Mirk came from there is a breeder in New England who has them (Mirk's merle color comes from her bloodline).

[workindogs]

Liz P

 

Why would anyone like the line Mirk came from unless they'd seen him and family work? I have seen Mirk work. But the tone of the thread isn't how he works but about his color. You appear to offering information about how to track the merle gene. Frankly, I don't know why Mirk was neutered, but I'd like to think it was because he is merle.....and that he was neutered to prevent any abuse of his color genetics by color fanatics. Progeny of a dog of color could attract untold wrong minded people. If I inadvertently produced a color in a litter (because I only breed for working ability), I'd be very careful about any breeding decisions for the progeny and might well go ahead a spay/neuter the colored pups....simply to prevent attracting the wrong sort of attention.

 

I've sold dogs/pups before and I hang up pretty darn fast if someone calls and asks the question "Does your line carry the red/merle/blue gene?"....I hang up right after I say "No".

[workindogs]

I guess what I like to imagine is a world without "color fanatics".....so a talented working dog of color could be appreciated for its working ability, bred for it's working ability (only!), matched to a mate that complimented it's strengths and weaknesses with the goal of producing a better working border collie (of any color). But, instead these dogs attract people who pro port to want to produce working dogs "of color" or maybe only to infuse working ability to "versatile" sport collies "of color".

 

The fact that this thread was created is testament to the fascination with "color".

[Dal & Mad's Mom]

Yeah but, to be honest his line does work and his full or half sister is being bred I by Terri F. So If someone wants a genuine work bred color why be mad about it and provide them with the info. No different than someone that we tell them dont buy from that breeder we have to offer them someone to get a pup from instead.

 

Sorry to hear that about Mirk. If things had been different all around I would have seriously considered breeding to him. He had a nice personality as did his parents. His sister Echo used to come into my training classes to play with the young dogs at the end.

[juliepoudrier]

ack, multiple posts!

[juliepoudrier]

Double post.

[juliepoudrier]

I tend to agree with Elizabeth on this one. People focus on the color and in doing so tend to put less priority on the work. I've seen Mirk and he's a nice dog, but there's nothing about him that screamed to me "this dog should be bred" any more than many other open trial dogs out there. So one can only think that the reason people would choose to breed to that particular dog was his *color.*

 

And then of course there's the wider issue that Elizabeth points to: what happens to all those colored puppies? Do you think they'd all be bred only for working ability? I think we all know the answer to that. Look at the gazillions of merles out there among the sports and pet folks. The lure is great. So the next thing you'd see is people breeding for the color and trading off the working reputation of a merle ancestor. Just think of all the rainbow puppies that such breedings could produce, and they'd be from *working lines"! I can hear the cash register ringing now.

 

J.

[herdcentral]

There doesnt seem to be a fixation on merles among sports people where I live. I didnt know that Border collies came in anything other than black and white when I first started doing agility. I think we have one merle competing and a couple of reds, the rest seem to be balck and white or tri. When I saw that merle I did think it was pretty and also one of our best agility dogs and comes from working lines from the UK, but it didnt inspire me to put colour before other things I was looking for and it doesnt seem to inspire anyone else to do so either.

[juliepoudrier]

^^Different cultures. I don't think anyone here has said that the comments we've made WRT to the US also apply in other areas of the world.

 

J.

[Liz P]

There are people out there who are hell bent on having a certain color and will buy it no matter what you say or do. People on the BCBoards insist that others buy pups from proven working parents. I know of 2 breeders in the USA who produce merles from parents that do well in Open. If a person insists on having a merle I would rather they buy a pup from one of those breeders than from one of many of the BYB or puppy mill bred merles available on the internet. Lesser of two evils I suppose, depending on how you look at the issue.

 

I would rather not publicly bash breeders who are not only trying to do the right thing but actually doing it without them being able to defend themselves. Both of the people I am thinking of are consistent Open handlers with many years of experience working and evaluating dogs. Neither one is putting litters on the ground just because they are merle.

 

As to your question about whether or not the resulting merle pups are bred, what about the thousands of black and white dogs who are bred every year that don't work? Some of the best breeders in the world have their dogs listed close up in the pedigrees of puppy mill dogs. I am sure they are horrified at the thought and wish that wasn't true, but it illustrates the point that you can't really control what happens to a pup once the buyer takes it away. I've seen many a dog sold on full registration to an Open handler trusted by the breeder who then sells that pup to someone else, who sells the pup down the line. Next thing you know a dog produced by 10x International Champion John Doe is pumping out puppies in a mill. While I think that every breeder should do their best to make sure this never happens I also think they need to be realistic and understand that they can't control everything. If you can't live with that reality then don't breed.

 

Julie, you have red dogs in your bloodline but no one says you are a color breeder. Diane, the same goes for you. Elizabeth, I happen to know that your dog Rye stands an excellent chance of carrying red. I own several dogs who stand a high chance of producing red and one of them is related to Rye. I used to own a wonderful red working dog whose dam was from Amanda's Boy x Hazel cross. None of us are trying to produce red puppies. I do not agree with the deliberate production of candy colored dogs, but these dogs will pop up in working bred litters no matter what we do.

[Denise Wall]

Merle is dominant. One parent must be merle. It does not pop up accidentally no matter what we do.

[juliepoudrier]

Liz,

The whole red dog thing is a red herring. As a vet, I'm sure you know all this, but for the sake of anyone else reading who might actually buy what you're saying, I'll go ahead and say this.

 

Red is a recessive gene and can be carried by dogs who don't express it themselves. If your dog isn't red and hasn't produced a red pup, then you would never know your dog carries red. Merle, on the other hand, is dominant. To get merle you have to breed merle. Red has been carried down through some very nice lines WITHOUT EVER HAVING BEEN SELECTED FOR, and that's a huge, glaring difference between reds, dilutes (also recessive) and merle. And besides which, despite the fact that I've bred just one litter, no reds in it, someone certainly could call me a color breeder if I made my breeding choices based on the likelihood that I would get a red pup instead of on working ability. I make no secret of liking red dogs, but having red dogs in one's kennel and breeding dogs to deliberately get red puppies are two entirely different things, no matter how YOU try to spin it.

 

I get your point about steering determined people to the lesser of two evils, but I'll just trot out that other old argument I've made so many times in the past. Merle dogs are a miniscule part of the working population. B&W, tri, and red dogs are much more populous. What, exactly, do you think the chances are that one of the, say (I'll be generous here) 10 merle dogs running well in open will be the best match for any bitch you have when there are 10 times as many dogs of other colors out there? By deliberately choosing merle, just as by deliberately choosing red, you (the general you) are necessarily ignoring a very large population of potential mates for your dog--you are putting COLOR first and foremost ahead of all working traits. I'd be willing to bet that most geneticists would note that making such a choice is not the best way to go about producing a next generation that in theory should improve on the parents' generation.

 

J.

[MrSnappy]

There doesnt seem to be a fixation on merles among sports people where I live.

 

Nor here either. I can think of very few merles running in agility. It seems to be more prevelent in flyball, but mostly merles seem to be covetted by pet owners, as far as I can tell.

 

Interestingly, merles are like the hardest to find homes for in my rescue. This has been discussed before, but the general populace doesn't seem to recognize them as border collies and seem to think we are trying to pull a fast one on them when we list them. Black and white puppies by far go the fastest, especially if they are female.

 

RDM

[Dal & Mad's Mom]

Julie at the time 4 years ago when casual discussion were going on about Maddie and Mirk assuming Maddie did more than test well. I wonder if it was that I wasnt opposed to breeding to him. I'm sure it would have cost me too plus a pup.

 

I dont have an answer as I've said before I know for a fact that plenty of people in my area have pets from the working lines. I got my last dog from Walt is the way alot of people start thier intorductions.

 

I also have seen the puppy mill papers with the elite of the hearding world 1 or 2 generations back now owned by the amish in their mills.

 

We recently had a person who turned their retired dogs over to rescue and then called in a panic not wanting their papers to be changed to the new owner. I'm not sure why although I can imagine it had something to do with puppies on the ground and climing to own the parents of the dogs.

 

Like I said in alother thread I'm currently in love with a border collie cattle dog mix who looks like a pure bred border collie with stunning markings but, a funny 3/4th's tail.

 

I just dont think it's fiar to be eliteist and tell people not to buy stuff without providing them good alternatives.

[juliepoudrier]

I just dont think it's fiar to be eliteist and tell people not to buy stuff without providing them good alternatives.

Funny how this elitist comment always comes up in breeding discussions. People who want merles will certainly get them, despite anything anyone says to the contrary.

 

Pointing out that merles are miniscule part of the population of working dogs and that merle is a dominant gene and therefore has to be bred for if it's to be retained are facts of the working dog world and genetics. If you want to call it unfair and elitist for someone to point that out, go right ahead, but it doesn't change the fact that merles represent a tiny part of the working population and that you have to choose to breed for merle to get it. If you're saying that I can't say these things without also helping someone find a working merle because that's what they really want, well, you'll just have to believe what you believe. If someone wants a good working-bred dog, they're out there in spades. Just not in merle.

 

I have no idea what you were trying to say in the rest of your post.

 

J.

[geonni banner]

I just dont think it's fiar to be eliteist and tell people not to buy stuff without providing them good alternatives.

 

Is it elitest to tell a young mother not to buy a car seat for her new infant when you've just read about the model she's thinking of buying having a poor rating for holding up in accidents?

 

I think it's the mother's job to go do her homework on getting the features she wants without sacrificing the quality of the product.

 

If she's choosing her baby's car seat on the strength of its "pretty design" she has a lot of thinking to do - and also needs to change the way she thinks.

[Donald McCaig]

Dear Doggers,

 

I remember on another list years ago a conformation breeder asking, "But, all other things being equal - wouldn't you rather breed for a good looking dog?"

 

To which my answer was: "All things are never equal."

 

I've just bought a bitch and at some point I'll breed her. She's a proven breeder.

 

"Proven" meaning having offspring reach national standard.

 

Please note that there are excellent working pups I'd rather not work with. I have the model of the perfect sheepdog in my mind. That dog doesn't exist, but his opinionated, deeply flawed handler does exist and that fellow works best with certain types of sheepdogs. I have strong opinions about the pup I'll make a part of my life for the next twelve or so years, travel with, train, work with, bond with and since I dislike rehoming dogs, I'd like to get it right. First time.

 

And while you're more likely to get excellence by breeding excellent to excellent, there's no guarantee. I bred twice to Wilson's Roy - the best US sheepdog I ever saw - a proven breeder. My bitch was proven too but the pups were uniformly mediocre.

 

I live in a sheepdog-intensive area - lots of good sheepdogs; a couple made the Finals and more made the semifinals.

 

I can think of one "proven" local sire who has thrown puppies I'd like to work. But I'd rather not deal with that dog's owner.

 

The next nearest potential sire is an 8 hour drive.

 

Now: let's imagine I add to my list of qualifications: "Must be smooth coat" (which, all things being equal: I prefer.)

 

Turn on the GPS, I'm going driving.

 

The man who wants to breed for working ability and coat color is a fool.

 

As the Bible says: "A man cannot serve two Masters."

 

Donald McCaig

[DeltaBluez Tess]

I could make money hand over fist if I bred Roo, every time

someone wanted to use him for color. I chose to stay poor

 

Diane

[Dal & Mad's Mom]

Funny how this elitist comment always comes up in breeding discussions. People who want merles will certainly get them, despite anything anyone says to the contrary.

 

Pointing out that merles are miniscule part of the population of working dogs and that merle is a dominant gene and therefore has to be bred for if it's to be retained are facts of the working dog world and genetics. If you want to call it unfair and elitist for someone to point that out, go right ahead, but it doesn't change the fact that merles represent a tiny part of the working population and that you have to choose to breed for merle to get it. If you're saying that I can't say these things without also helping someone find a working merle because that's what they really want, well, you'll just have to believe what you believe. If someone wants a good working-bred dog, they're out there in spades. Just not in merle.

 

I have no idea what you were trying to say in the rest of your post.

 

J.

 

Although the rest of my post isnt replying to you it's explaining that the old time big hats didnt exclude dogs to strict working homes and backing up Liz P. post.

 

There are people who write books and ran the nationals this week who sold dogs to people they thought they could trust and now their name is in the hands of the Pa amish mill community. Then there are the people who let him breed to their or sold them their dog. Understand now? Once you sell a puppy no matter how careful you think you are unless you spay or neuter it well you deal with the issues.

 

I own a white dog who's papers have very respectable names on him. I could show that others are selling dogs of similar breeding and selling the pups for big money. I know for a absolute fact that Jo woodbury bred at least 1 red merle litter Unless my papers are fakes.

 

If people want colors and are willing to go to a good breeder who trials then give them the names they want.

 

Otherwise they seek out the phoenix rising dogs.

[juliepoudrier]

If people want colors and are willing to go to a good breeder who trials then give them the names they want.

Why would I give out the names of people who breed for color just because they trial? If I don't think they're a good breeder, then I'm certainly not going to recommend them, even if doing so would be giving the puppy buyer what they want.

 

J.

[Dal & Mad's Mom]

Why would I give out the names of people who breed for color just because they trial? If I don't think they're a good breeder, then I'm certainly not going to recommend them, even if doing so would be giving the puppy buyer what they want.

 

J.

 

 

I'm not saying give them a name of a color breeder I'm saying give them the name of a proven dog who may have the color they want. If Diane bred Roo as she just mentioned would you accuse her of color breeding. I think your Lumping everyone who has a colored dog in the same bunch.

 

Then I think it's up to the breeder to decide if thye would sell to the person and put a breeding restriction on the dog or not.

 

In my opinion Border collie breeders dont put enough restriction on breeding. More puppies should be fixed up front. JMHO

[Dal & Mad's Mom]

Is it elitest to tell a young mother not to buy a car seat for her new infant when you've just read about the model she's thinking of buying having a poor rating for holding up in accidents?

 

I think it's the mother's job to go do her homework on getting the features she wants without sacrificing the quality of the product.

 

If she's choosing her baby's car seat on the strength of its "pretty design" she has a lot of thinking to do - and also needs to change the way she thinks.

 

 

I"m a nurse and it's my job to explain why the pretty seat is worng and then point her in the correct direction for a safe pretty alternative. I do that stuff all day every day.