Well, I think I am getting a puppy.....

[Kelly Selzle]

There's a gal I know who is training her little white Poodle to work sheep, a la AKC. Really. It's hilarious!

Cheers ~

 

Gloria

 

I actually saw a poodle "work" sheep at an AKC trial. It was a well trained poodle "working" well trained sheep. Really, it was all about sit, stay etc. commands given by the "handler" who was actually working the sheep.

 

Kelly

[geonni banner]

Ya know, I used to have a Rough Collie. I used to take him everywhere. I’d go out to clear this big vacant lot of litter. It was all overgrown with weeds and tall grass. I would fill a plastic grocery bag and tie it off, drop it and start on a new one. I’d work my way across the field that way. Fill up three or four bags. At the place I’d end up was a big City garbage can. I’d drop the bag I’d just filled in and send the Collie back for the other three.

I’d just point and say, “Sensei, Go. Find it.” He’d start of in the direction I pointed. If I told him, he’d turn to the left or the right. Lookin’ for the bag. Sometimes I was wrong about where the bag was and he’d blow me off and find it, and bring it. Then I’d send him again. He’d bring ‘em all to me.

If I was at the dog park with a friend and their dog wouldn’t recall I'd send Sensei and he’d bring ‘em in, even if he had to take ‘em by the ear.

Wish I’d known about AKC arena trials then. Could have had a multi-titled dog with hardly any work at all! Heck, he coulda done it outdoors too!

[Smokjbc]

I would love to! If nothing else, we could say, "Hi, we're the Nevada Contingent." Seriously, though, I do hope our paths will cross. I sneak over to California from time to time, and I'm hoping to make it down to ... dang, I think it's Porterville? Where someone has a fun N/N - P/N trial in the spring. So if not in Utah, maybe we'd meet up sometime in CA.

 

Though I'd love to take in Utah. I've only ever been there once, riding with a truck-driver friend to Salt Lake, so I'd be delighted for an excuse to go back, sometime. Where and when is Kelly Creek, and do they include P/N?

Cheers ~

 

Gloria

 

 

We are going to try to go to Porterville this November for the fall driving trial - see you there? Kelley Creek is outside of SLC, up in the mountains and it's beautiful. They do have Pro-Novice and a nice course and really know how to take care of their handlers. It's during 4th of July weekend but the weather the years I've been there has been really nice.

[Gloria Atwater]

I actually saw a poodle "work" sheep at an AKC trial. It was a well trained poodle "working" well trained sheep. Really, it was all about sit, stay etc. commands given by the "handler" who was actually working the sheep.

 

Kelly

 

 

Exactly.

 

~ Gloria

[jdarling]

Tea,

 

A controlled escape ... I found a video that demonstrates it pretty well. Here's a GSD doing an "A" course. I don't know who is in the video (dog or handler), but the part right after they take the sheep out of the pen, they are supposed to do a "crossdrive" of sorts through the panels that they miss. The sheep are trying to escape to where they came from (because of the way the course is designed) and you need to control the escape in order to get them through the panels ... and there are so many handler/dog teams that can't manage it, yet you can still accumulate enough points to "qualify" for your "legs" to advance to the next level.

 

 

Jodi

[Eileen Stein]

It also irritates me that some of you are sitting up on your soapbox and making claims against others when truly you have NO idea what goes on. Why dont you email or contact them personally rather than dropping their names in a public forum, this shows a lack of character and integrity.

 

It seems to me that if you advertise your breeding operation on the Internet, others have a right to comment on it on the Internet. You have been afforded equal opportunity to come here and to state your point of view and tell us "what goes on," and you've exercised that right. There's been an open public discussion in which you've been welcomed to take part. Doesn't that enable people to form a fairer idea of the truth than if you could somehow prevent such a public exchange of views?

 

I understand that this thread irritates you. People are criticizing what you're doing -- of course that's irritating. It would be great if you could get past that irritation, and look at what's being said, and really consider the merits of what's being said. I understand it's a rare person who can do that. But still, some people can, and do.

[jdarling]

And

is an ASCA Advanced run ... and at the bottom, it even mentions that this dog finished it's WTCh that weekend (that's Working Trial Championship).

 

(Thanks, Glenn, for the information on the new ASCA courses. I heard they were going to start offering different courses, and glad to see they have. Now they just need to get rid of the "You have to start in started" rule. Even the AKC doesn't do that.)

 

Jodi

[Maja]

OT: Hey guys, who out there picking on BMDs? They are herding dogs, a drover type, so I think that regular style herding would not work for them well. My Daisy was not trained to do anything, but she is really good when taking the sheep out into the pasture. She brings the strays back into the flock, and she guards them. My friends ask me if she is going to take some tests in herding, so I tell them that an LGD test would be pretty boring, but they might improve it by sneaking onto the pasture at hight

 

Concerning the AKC trials, I watched some videos and was pretty surprised. Personally, I do not feel fit to judge the non BC breeds (e.g. in the last link it's an aussie, I think). I have seen many herding breeds work that are not border collies or kelpies, and it's a quite different cup of tea to me -one cannot judge non BCs by the BC standard, I think. But the thing that struck me in the videos (with BCs) was that the whole herding thing looked so sad to me. I don't know what is the purpose of pottering along the fence? I do practice such things when I want to achieve something specific and I only want to worry about one flank for a moment, but I felt really claustrophobic watching it. Chaosstockdogs, don't get offended about it, but it was my impression. I am from the Polish KC, so I started with a much more positive attitude towards the AKC that most people here, but the trials in Poland look quite different for BCs. True, they do start from a pretty basic level, but it does not look like that at all. In the AKC videos to me the dogs look like they are trailing behind the sheep despondently.

 

In the initial HW FCI test (that allows a dog to compete in trials) the outrun is about 75 meters. In class 1 trial the outrun is at least 100 m (no cross drive or shed), in class 2 it's 200 m (+ crossdrive + shed), and in class 3 it's about 350m (+cross drive , + shed, + single), all classes have a pen, plus there may be other elements (e.g. trailer loading). I know the outrun and cross drive it's probably not as long as the open trial in the US.

 

I am obviously no herding expert, but I would tell anyone - take those dogs out in the open quickly, before it is too late, and go and really enjoy working stock.

 

Maja

P.S. Poodles actually originally were herding dogs, it's not their fault they have ridiculous fur-dos; I think it's laudable that people are trying to make that intelligent breed work.

[mbc1963]

The problem with boycotting AKC is that its not changing anything

 

Actually, I think boycotting the AKC isn't enough. People actually have to TALK, loudly and openly, about how the AKC needs to be disregarded by the public.

 

The recent BBC documentary did loads to educate people about what breeding for conformation has done to dogs. One can only hope that in a generation's time, it will be general knowledge that the AKC is nonsense, and that people should look for a DOG, not a "purebred," when buying a pet.

 

I know this is a wee bit scandalous to say on the BC forum, and I do understand the need for working dogs. And I completely understand working breeders' desire to keep working dogs working, and to breed for that trait.

 

BUT:

 

The vast, vast majority of dogs alive now are pet dogs, not working dogs. The AKC has convinced pet owners that they need to buy a breed, rather than a dog. All my life, until I got Buddy from the shelter, I had owned (mutt) dogs, rather than breeds. They were stupendous, stubborn, funny, aggravating, boundlessly loyal - all the things you need in a pet dog. For most of history, average people just took mixed-breed pups home from local litters to get their pet dogs. There were no inbred health problems, no weird genetic side-tracks, because there was no "Official Agency" advocating breeding (and inbreeding) for physical appearance to the detriment of dogs' health. Only in the last 100 years have we warped these poor "purebred" breeds into bizarre and unhealthy shadows of their original selves. For what? So my neighbor can own a bulldog that is hardly suited to hold itself upright, instead of a "mutt" who would be a fine pet? So my other neighbor can brag about the lineage of her poodles, who pretty much hang around the house and go for walks just like any mutty pet dog I ever owned? So people obsessed with designer clothes can complement their Jimmy Choos with a purebred (poorbred) Maltese?

 

I am wholly unimpressed by the "dog fancy" that gets whipped into a frenzy by the AKC. I think the absence of the AKC would be better for dogs AND the wallets of the typical pet family. (AND I think fewer people would be able to make a living by puppy-milling and destroying hundreds of dogs if the "fancy" for designer breeds were taken out of our psyches.)

 

And gosh... imagine if all the money that goes into supporting AKC events that provoke people into buying poorly-bred, unhealthy dogs could be funneled into some higher purpose, like encouraging shelter adoptions, or fighting puppy mills? All the dog-lovers who are now swept up in powdering their dogs' coats and coloring their dogs' noses with Sharpie could take all their dog-loving energy and spend it on something highly rewarding, with great karmic outcome.

 

I know this runs counter to our conditioning to buy, buy, buy, and impress, impress, impress. Fancy dogs are, to many people, status symbols. But I strongly believe we have an individual responsibility to think about the ripples that work outward from our choices. One woman's desire to prance around a ring with a beautiful but AKC-ruined dog has an impact on the larger world. I think it's fair to ask that woman to think about it.

 

Mary

[jdarling]

-one cannot judge non BCs by the BC standard

 

Please note, I only posted the videos to demonstrate the course. These are touted as all-breed courses, so any herding breed should be able to do them. Fact of the matter is ... these trials are all supposed to be judged the same way, no matter what breed is out there running it. More often than not, the non-BC judge will hit a BC for quite a few points because they do not understand how eye affects the working style. Not that it matters. Most of the "Border" Collies being run in these trials don't have much eye to speak of anyway.

[Maja]

Jodie,

 

I know, it's just that you mentioned this dog's achievement .

 

In FCI, the trials are divided into herding breeds excluding BC and kelpie, and they are called "traditional style", and kelpies and BCs are separate and it's called collecting style. I am working on Dog Wars, but they have tough competition from Useful Dog and Nop's Trials that came today.

 

Maja

[jdarling]

Here, they all compete under the same judge/rules/course, etc.

 

The traditional style would be rather easy for a BC.

 

And this ... is exactly the point. A big fish in a little pond.

 

I know, it's just that you mentioned this dog's achievement smile.gif .

 

Yup. Because I was demonstrating the difference. We all just got done watching the webcast of the finals where they named a Champion. Not always does "Champion" mean the same thing. In ASCA, again, while it's main focus is Aussies, most of the herding trials are open to all herding breeds. I wasn't picking on the dog. Under the rules, this dog did a fine job of putting the sheep through the obstacles and earning the championship under the rules. Believe me, I am not picking on the dogs. (In fact, I searched for videos where the dog did a nice job because I didn't want people to have to try to decipher what the course was because of all of the circling, splitting, barking, and missed panels -- which is not uncommon to see.) I am trying to show people what an ASCA course is about, how simple it is, and why breeding decisions should not be made by any titles earned under any of the title-driven sanctioning bodies.

[jdarling]

Sorry Maja, looks like I quoted something you deleted. I think it speaks volumes. Do you mind if I leave it there?

[Maja]

I must have deleted it accidentally while fiddling with the post.

Maja

[amc]

D'Elle, I sent you a PM.

 

Amy

[Journey]

I have an issue with this position if I am reading it correctly. There are many members of this board who do activities with the dogs within ACK, it's not that that is a problem it's breeding them for any reason other than high working standards.

 

This illustrates Julie's point that there are many different opinions about AKC on the Boards, even among those who adhere to the Boards' basic philosophy of supporting the working standard. My opinion is closer to the one Maja stated than the one Journey stated.

 

I sure hope these double quotes come out right...

 

While I would like to agree with you I was also not willing to open the door insinuating that those who do sports (agility) with rescues, etc...are part of the problem. They are when they start breeding and registering though.

[Eileen Stein]

I am obviously no herding expert, but I would tell anyone - take those dogs out in the open quickly, before it is too late, and go and really enjoy working stock.

 

That's a very good point. It obviously bothers me that dogs are designated as champions for doing this kind of thing, which misleads people into thinking they're proven working dogs, but it bothers me just as much that whatever talent they might have is being squelched out of them. People often say that the AKC Course A, or a trial like this one, "may not be as much of a test as the USBCHA trials, but it's a good place to start." But it's NOT a good place to start. To start your dog out in a tiny area, trying to use him to make sheep follow a small, precise pattern essentially through obedience to commands, is a terrible way to start a dog. What you want the dog to be doing early in its training -- at least IMO -- is to be learning and feeling how sheep move, how the dog can affect the way sheep move, how to take control of sheep, and the satisfaction that comes from all that. The dogs that are trained to this "obedience on sheep" in confined areas at the start will very likely never learn how to take control of their sheep. And what good is a sheepdog who can't do that? Such a dog will never be more than a cue ball.

 

P.S. Poodles actually originally were herding dogs, it's not their fault they have ridiculous fur-dos; I think it's laudable that people are trying to make that intelligent breed work.

 

Really? I thought poodles were originally water retrievers. But then, I don't know very much about poodles.

[Maja]

Poodles: They are very smart, so they did both, like many farm dogs who had more than one job. But their looks was the death of them. I am very sorry for them and for yorkies - a naturally valiant and intelligent dog. Since my desire for working dogs is more than just border collies, it makes happy when people try to do something with their dogs. Though on the other hand, some of the breeds' herding techniques I find objectionable for the livestock's sake. But that's OT again. I'm sorry.

 

Your first paragraph: my feelings exactly.

Maja

[rushdoggie]

Actually, I think boycotting the AKC isn't enough. People actually have to TALK, loudly and openly, about how the AKC needs to be disregarded by the public.

 

The recent BBC documentary did loads to educate people about what breeding for conformation has done to dogs. One can only hope that in a generation's time, it will be general knowledge that the AKC is nonsense, and that people should look for a DOG, not a "purebred," when buying a pet.

 

I know this is a wee bit scandalous to say on the BC forum, and I do understand the need for working dogs. And I completely understand working breeders' desire to keep working dogs working, and to breed for that trait.

 

BUT:

 

The vast, vast majority of dogs alive now are pet dogs, not working dogs. The AKC has convinced pet owners that they need to buy a breed, rather than a dog. All my life, until I got Buddy from the shelter, I had owned (mutt) dogs, rather than breeds. They were stupendous, stubborn, funny, aggravating, boundlessly loyal - all the things you need in a pet dog. For most of history, average people just took mixed-breed pups home from local litters to get their pet dogs. There were no inbred health problems, no weird genetic side-tracks, because there was no "Official Agency" advocating breeding (and inbreeding) for physical appearance to the detriment of dogs' health. Only in the last 100 years have we warped these poor "purebred" breeds into bizarre and unhealthy shadows of their original selves. For what? So my neighbor can own a bulldog that is hardly suited to hold itself upright, instead of a "mutt" who would be a fine pet? So my other neighbor can brag about the lineage of her poodles, who pretty much hang around the house and go for walks just like any mutty pet dog I ever owned? So people obsessed with designer clothes can complement their Jimmy Choos with a purebred (poorbred) Maltese?

 

I am wholly unimpressed by the "dog fancy" that gets whipped into a frenzy by the AKC. I think the absence of the AKC would be better for dogs AND the wallets of the typical pet family. (AND I think fewer people would be able to make a living by puppy-milling and destroying hundreds of dogs if the "fancy" for designer breeds were taken out of our psyches.)

 

And gosh... imagine if all the money that goes into supporting AKC events that provoke people into buying poorly-bred, unhealthy dogs could be funneled into some higher purpose, like encouraging shelter adoptions, or fighting puppy mills? All the dog-lovers who are now swept up in powdering their dogs' coats and coloring their dogs' noses with Sharpie could take all their dog-loving energy and spend it on something highly rewarding, with great karmic outcome.

 

I know this runs counter to our conditioning to buy, buy, buy, and impress, impress, impress. Fancy dogs are, to many people, status symbols. But I strongly believe we have an individual responsibility to think about the ripples that work outward from our choices. One woman's desire to prance around a ring with a beautiful but AKC-ruined dog has an impact on the larger world. I think it's fair to ask that woman to think about it.

 

Mary

 

 

I totally hear you, and agree with part of what you said. Dogs should not be a status symbol or a fashion statement, and the whole "closed gene pool/fashion show/beauty pageant" aspect of purebred dogs has led to some pretty horrible results.

 

That said, I think the idea of dog breeds, or maybe more accurately, dog types, is a good one. Choose a purpose for the dog: running companion, family protector, livestock mover, sports partner, lap warmer, child's companion, sled puller, service dog, etc. Define a skill set and temperament. Skip any standards that are focused on appearance (form follows function, not the other way around), and set up useful tests to define the skills to call you dog a champion. Don't be afraid of out crosses, they can improve your dog.

 

Then, teach responsible stewardship to children in schools and help people understand that choosing a dog based on your needs its better than on how it looks or your ego (yes, I mean you neighbor with the under-socialized Rottweiler chosen because he was 'tough' and now your kids are afraid of him and hes penned in the yard and kind of scary, you should have gotten a small affectionate companion with high affection and easy to handle energy so your daughter would have taken care of him...and you, lady with 6 lb Yorkie dressed in a pink dress with a pink bow - for goodness sake adopt a child already, your dog is a dog), along with enough biology and psychology so they would understand how to kindly control the creatures and who breeding in a small gee pool is bad, m'kay?

 

Then we could all choose the dog type that meets our needs, all dogs would be wanted, etc.

 

If I was Queen Of The Universe...

[geonni banner]

I know this runs counter to our conditioning to buy, buy, buy, and impress, impress, impress. Fancy dogs are, to many people, status symbols. But I strongly believe we have an individual responsibility to think about the ripples that work outward from our choices. One woman's desire to prance around a ring with a beautiful but AKC-ruined dog has an impact on the larger world. I think it's fair to ask that woman to think about it.

Mary

 

Agreed. And it's not just those who want to show. I have a friend who asked me for my opinion on what breed of dog she should buy. I asked what she wanted the dog for, and she said she just wanted a canine companion. I said, "Why not bail a mutt out of the pound?" She wrinkled her nose in an expression of disdain.

 

So I asked a lot of questions about the amount of time she would happily spend exercising, grooming, training, etc. Based on her answers I told her that a Golden retriever or a Labrador were my best choices for her. Again with the wrinkled nose. "But they're so common!" was her response.

 

"Yes," I said "They are common because they are good family dogs that the average person can handle. They are affectionate, eager to please and very forgiving of owner error."

 

She got an Ibizan Hound and has never stopped complaining about it.

 

Why do people insist on a breed that has a gene-pool of about five dogs, and then complain about the problems the dogs have?

 

These AKC folk put their noses in the air about how the working Border Collie has "no recognizable "breed type" (not true, by the by) and chortle over their Bernese Mountain Collies. The Border Collie's breed type is defined by utility. By that "standard" the Barbie Collie and all the other Barbie-ized breeds have no "breed type" at all, just redundancy.

[njnovice]

Really? I thought poodles were originally water retrievers. But then, I don't know very much about poodles.

 

I thought they were, too.

[geonni banner]

Poodle as stock dog?

 

Well, there's this...

 

http://www.poodlehistory.org/PHERD.HTM

[Gloria Atwater]

We are going to try to go to Porterville this November for the fall driving trial - see you there? Kelley Creek is outside of SLC, up in the mountains and it's beautiful. They do have Pro-Novice and a nice course and really know how to take care of their handlers. It's during 4th of July weekend but the weather the years I've been there has been really nice.

 

 

Porterville is a fairly long drive for me, but then what isn't?

 

I've been eyeballing that trial and we'll see. At some point soon I REALLY need to stop spending money, so I'll have something saved up to trial with next year! (Plus I'm hoping on a trip to the UK in May....)

 

My trainer is trying to talk me into Spencer's Pt Pleasant P/N trial on Oct 28, as my debut into Pro-Novice. Mapquest says that's only about a 3 hour drive for me, which is a lot closer than Porterville's 6+ hours. So ... I may wait until the spring trials before I try P-ville.

 

But we'll see! If I want to get some trialing done next year, I'm gonna have to do some driving and that's a natural fact!

 

Ouch, Salt Lake is a long-ass drive, but dang. That could be so much fun ... The Nevada Contingent really needs to do a group showing somewhere, some day.

Cheers ~

 

Gloria

[C Crocker]

Porterville is a fairly long drive for me, but then what isn't?

 

I've been eyeballing that trial and we'll see. At some point soon I REALLY need to stop spending money, so I'll have something saved up to trial with next year! (Plus I'm hoping on a trip to the UK in May....)

 

My trainer is trying to talk me into Spencer's Pt Pleasant P/N trial on Oct 28, as my debut into Pro-Novice. Mapquest says that's only about a 3 hour drive for me, which is a lot closer than Porterville's 6+ hours. So ... I may wait until the spring trials before I try P-ville.

 

But we'll see! If I want to get some trialing done next year, I'm gonna have to do some driving and that's a natural fact!

 

Ouch, Salt Lake is a long-ass drive, but dang. That could be so much fun ... The Nevada Contingent really needs to do a group showing somewhere, some day.

Cheers ~

 

Gloria

 

 

 

Gloria,

 

Spencer's would be a great place to start trialing. Their sheep are good, nice people , and good field. It is flat but there is a stand to get on so you can get a better lay of the land. P/N is on a Thursday this year. Pt Pleasant is about /12 hr south of Sacramento just a bit off of I-5. That's the only day I can go so maybe I can meet another fellow student?

 

Carolyn

[JenS]

Gloria, I would recommend Spencer's Trial. The sheep will be the same flock we used at the Scottish Games. Good ones for those just starting. Porterville will be using rerun range sheep. PN is on Monday. I'll be running my young dog at Spencer's.

 

To go back to the topic of USBCHA field trials, versus arena trials, here is a short experience. Out here we have a club that has been doing arena trials for a very long time. Courses are not like any other. Anyway, there are a few of these trials near my in-laws. Going makes a nice weekend as the trial are just one day, so there is plenty of social time. Well, the in-laws had been to several of these trials over the years, and I'd forgotten thy are the only trials they had been too. Now a couple of years ago, a new (and very nice) USBCHA Open field Trial started up nearby. We stayed with the in-laws (who were a little miffed that I had to be there two days and leave before dawn). They decided to come down for one day, and watched us run. These people are not dog or livestock experienced. They barely know what they are seeing. They were astounded at what work the dogs were doing. The FIL commented on how you could see this was real work. My MIL was very excited for my dog (the quote was "He's doing it! He's doing it!") even though we had a miserable go. Their perception totally changed. I was totally not expecting it. I didn't think they were interested or really cared and just dropped by to enjoy the beautiful venue and be social. But when I think about it, it really is quite noticeable the differences in work, of course it was obvious. So if the general public can see the difference, why not the folks running in AKC, ASCA, or others? I can't help but think it is the same mindset that sees a show winning Bulldog as a healthy dog. Or a show GSD trotting around the ring as "correct" (just don't ask it to run...er....bunny hop). Minds are made up. No facts needed.