Well, I think I am getting a puppy.....

[Sue R]

There's a "training facility" in one of the West Coast states that invites all breeds to find their "inner herder" - or something to that effect. Anything from your Chihuahua to your Great Dane (again, words to that effect). That strikes me as nothing more than making dog toys out of living animals (sheep, ducks, whatever) and making a buck for all the wrong reasons. Oh, well, it takes all kinds.

 

Back to our regularly scheduled programming...

[jdarling]

Inner herder? Like THIS?

[D'Elle]

Wow, what an interesting thread this has become.

I am reading every post here avidly.

I am very glad that Mandy came here to post for herself, as the ensuing discussion has brought out so many new-to-me aspects of the issue and resulted in so many well-made points that I feel I have learned more in the past few days about the reasons for the philosophy of these boards than I ever had before. Or maybe it is just that I am taking it in, in a more thorough way. Certainly understanding it far better.

 

I am now very glad that I made that original post and that this long and fascinating discussion has occurred.

 

To all of you who are taking the time to join in and continue to educate even the apparently slow learners like me, I offer my very respectful thanks.

 

Still on the hunt for the puppy. ......

D'Elle

[Gary M]

But as people decide not to have kids but to have dogs, breeds actually get altered. If we alter a breed too much, it can’t do what it was bred to do,” Delsman said.

(emphasis added)

Yeah, that's why... (where is the puke emoticon)

[abcollie]

Wow, what an interesting thread this has become.

I am reading every post here avidly.

I am very glad that Mandy came here to post for herself, as the ensuing discussion has brought out so many new-to-me aspects of the issue and resulted in so many well-made points that I feel I have learned more in the past few days about the reasons for the philosophy of these boards than I ever had before. Or maybe it is just that I am taking it in, in a more thorough way. Certainly understanding it far better.

 

I am now very glad that I made that original post and that this long and fascinating discussion has occurred.

 

To all of you who are taking the time to join in and continue to educate even the apparently slow learners like me, I offer my very respectful thanks.

 

Still on the hunt for the puppy. ......

D'Elle

 

That makes all the effort "worthwhile".

[chaosstockdogs]

ASCA has 2 basic courses, but the stock differ and the judges at least prefer dogs who actively work, show some pizazz and get into the job. Still an arena course, but not as mind-numbing as ACK.

 

WOW really? Have you ever even been to an ASCA trial? From your post, its clear that you havent. Maybe you should attend one before writing such claims. I have attended trials where the dog lays down and the sheep are half way through the course before the dog even gets up. The aussie I referenced in my previous post was a dog that was more interested in sheep droppings than the stock in the arena, talk about course broke. My opinion is that AKC is much more of a test of someones ability than ASCA is. And I have competed in ASCA.

 

Im really annoyed at those of you (I wont mention names as you know who you are) that have bred or are currently breeding dogs that are not open level dogs and not only once or twice but SEVERAL times.

 

And the name calling has really gotten old, ACK...really? Barbie Collie? Seems a little childish to me. It also irritates me that some of you are sitting up on your soapbox and making claims against others when truly you have NO idea what goes on. Why dont you email or contact them personally rather than dropping their names in a public forum, this shows a lack of character and integrity.

 

I will continue to support AKC, now more than ever. You can have the best of both worlds, USBCHA open work is not only thing out there, a Border Collie has much more to offer than that. The close mindedness on this forum is discusting, but everyone is entitled to their own opinion.

[stockdogranch]

I have attended trials where the dog lays down and the sheep are half way through the course before the dog even gets up. The aussie I referenced in my previous post was a dog that was more interested in sheep droppings than the stock in the arena, talk about course broke.

Honestly, this sounds like a very apt description of ACK, er, AKC trials. As I stated before, I know EXACTLY what they look like...

A

[Maralynn]

Barbie Collie? Seems a little childish to me.

 

If the AKC comes up with another name for them, I'll be more than happy to use that instead

 

USBCHA open work is not only thing out there, a Border Collie has much more to offer than that.

 

Yes, I kind of agree with you on that. But the reason the BC as a breed has so much to offer? Because they've been bred to the to work stock at a high level. Period. You can take a well bred working BC and do most anything with it. You can not do so with conformation or sport bred BC's. Even you admit this in the type of border collies you've chosen to surround yourself with. If you don't breed to the standard of a high level of stockwork, you start to loose bits and pieces of what makes a Border Collie a Border Collie.

[njnovice]

And the name calling has really gotten old, ACK...really? Barbie Collie? Seems a little childish to me. It also irritates me that some of you are sitting up on your soapbox and making claims against others when truly you have NO idea what goes on. Why dont you email or contact them personally rather than dropping their names in a public forum, this shows a lack of character and integrity.

 

I will continue to support AKC, now more than ever. You can have the best of both worlds, USBCHA open work is not only thing out there, a Border Collie has much more to offer than that. The close mindedness on this forum is discusting, but everyone is entitled to their own opinion.

 

Yes, a Border Collie has more to offer than just being able to work at an Open level, but that is the standard that should be used to determine if the dog is breeding worthy.

 

Support the AKC, but you're not doing the breed any favors. I don't understand how someone can claim to love the breed, yet want to water it down and ruin it. An AKC trial is meaningless. Mick hasn't been on sheep in over a year now. I'm pretty confident that I could get him around an AKC A-course pretty easily. It doesn't mean anything.

[Lana]

I will continue to support AKC, now more than ever. You can have the best of both worlds, USBCHA open work is not only thing out there, a Border Collie has much more to offer than that.

 

Of course you will how else to justify your breeding these dogs.

 

You are right about one thing the Border Collie does have much more to offer than open trials...it is called ranch and farm work that could not be done without the WORKING Border Collies.

 

Im really annoyed at those of you (I wont mention names as you know who you are) that have bred or are currently breeding dogs that are not open level dogs and not only once or twice but SEVERAL times.

 

Yup they chap my a** too.

 

Lana

[Cynthia P]

I will continue to support AKC, now more than ever. You can have the best of both worlds, USBCHA open work is not only thing out there, a Border Collie has much more to offer than that. The close mindedness on this forum is discusting, but everyone is entitled to their own opinion.

 

The border collie is what it is because of generations of working bred dogs, bred for working all day, laying down and chilling when they werent' working, making good judgements, being biddable. Not only open trials. There are good dogs that are bred that are farm dogs; I personally wouldn't want to limit the gene pool to only open trial dogs...but it sure gives you a good idea of how well they can work. Just because a dog has an HT along with a MACH, CH, & an OTCH...doesn't mean it should be bred because it is versatile and can herd (HT is the Herding tested title in AKC, the beginnning level below the arena course)

 

I have bred a PN dog...i'm not ashamed; we have one of our dogs bred right now and she doesn't trial at the open level; she doesn't trial at all anymore...she was bashed by some rams and was injured; she still is a very dedicated worker...with a limp. The sire is an open level dog who is also an extremely handy farm dog. They are both invaluable farm dogs; many farmers...who aren't enamoured with border collies love watching our dogs do their jobs...and have asked to buy them. Too rich for their blood; too valuable for us to let go. Ahh that's what a border collie is supposed to do they say

 

I have seen first hand what the AKC has done in a few short years to the Giant Schnauzer, the mini schnauzer and the Australian Cattle dog; I don't believe the " you can change it from within" because i've tried, maybe not hard enough but enough that i didn't think it was worth my energy. In my opinion the conformation show ring is changing many breeds of dogs into happy go lucky labradors...temperments that many of them are not supposed to have (my other breeds).

 

I recently had one of my friends, who hosts AKC trials, has AKC border collies and German Shepherds (albeit from German herding lines...and they would flunk miserably in the show ring) come to a USBCHA trial. I think she was expecting mean spirited callous ACK hating people. She was welcomed and encouraged. I haven't brought her back from the dark side...but every little bit counts. AKC people hate going to her farm because her sheep aren't course trained. They act like..well sheep. The entries at her trials reflect that.

 

Chaos stock dogs, many of the people here have had some first hand experience with the AKC; some of the people at the ACK trials/venues I really liked. There are some great stock people here and some outstanding border collies, and some people I really like! In my years of trialling with the AKC (which I no longer do...USBCHA for the last 7 years) i have seen very few good examples of stockmanship and even fewer good border collies (let alone other breeds). It is my opinion that the border collie should not be bred for versatility, never be bred for looks, because it does a sub 4 in flyball, or has a MACH at age 3...but be bred because it is a darn fine workin' dog.

 

Cynthia

[NCStarkey]

Hello Mandy,

 

I have commented on this thread several times, and each time, I have addressed my comments directly to you. While I feel that I have always been polite, respectful, and cordial in my posts, I can understand your frustration and annoyance regarding some of the comments on this thread. However, you would need to compound that frustration and annoyance one hundred times to begin to reach the frustration level of those of us on this forum who have been involved with working Border Collies for decades. With great frequency, someone "new to herding" (such as yourself) comes to this forum and professes to know far more about what constitutes a good working Border Collie than those of us with years and years of experience. I learned a long time ago that I cannot impose my values on anyone but myself, so I will not try to persuade you to changes your values. All I can do is provide information based on years of experience with the dogs that I treasure, the working Border Collie.

 

It has been suggested that you get a copy of The Dog Wars by Donald McCaig and educate yourself about the history of the AKC's recognition of the working Border Collie. After reading this book, if you still choose to participate in AKC events, that is your decision. But, at least you would be doing so with full knowledge of the actions of the AKC. Personally, as someone who fought The Dog Wars, I won't give the AKC the time of day, much less any of my hard earned money.

 

Regarding breeding your Border Collies, that is your decision, as well. However, please don't try to justify that decision by alluding yourself into thinking that they are proven working dogs, when they have only begun the long journey toward becoming fully trained working Border Collies. Also, if you are breeding your dogs to keep a puppy for yourself (which is truly the best reason for breeding), here's something to consider. I have always felt that I could buy a far better puppy than I could ever produce. When I look for a puppy to purchase, the choices are almost unlimited, and there are usually puppies out of truly great working dogs for sale. Therefore, I have never produced a litter, even though I have had some really nice working Border Collies for over twenty years (USBCHA trial winners).

 

It has been written in this thread that those "new to herding" do not have any idea how much they do not yet know, and I wholeheartedly agree. I have been training and trialing my Border Collies for twenty years, and there is a wealth of information that I still don't know. But, I do know that breeding Border Collies that have not proven their worthiness will only serve to make more Border Collies instead of making better Border Collies. If that's what you want to do, then unfortunately, you are entitled to do so.

 

Regards,

nancy

[Tea]

(Ok...please remember this is not real..... .....it is fictional Theme from The Godfather please..... what if.......A long time ago in another world......)

 

Wise Guys and the dogs

 

-----------------------------------

 

Ok Rocko grab da man’s thumb……Now I am a patient man……..I am going to let yoos try to figure dis out on your own, because I am reasonable.-

Dis here workin freakin dogs dey are called?.....

Can’t hear ya

Rocko move your fist outta da guys mouth………..

Dats right dey are Border Collie dogs.

Now your kinda dogs…dem dogs …what are dey called?

No, that’s not wat dey are called, smart guy.

So now, wat are dey called?

Whataya mean ya don’t know?

Rocko, I can’t unda-stand him because your fist is still in his mouth, move yos fist…..

Ok….Guy…dem dogs are anyting…yoos can call dem anything EXCEPT what…….?

Dats right…anyting but Border Collie dogs

Ya see paly, dats not so hard……Don’t forget now…Or we will be back, brother and not so unda-standing as today.

ok…Let em up Rocko.

Hey, nice wall paper in here, ya know…really high class establishment.

Hey I’ll give ya one more piece of advice, never piss off a sheep dairy. Man dos guys are mean. And dey give us ricotta for free, kinda in exchange for our services. Ya know?

 

 

 

(I know I've posted it before...sorry...)

[Gloria Atwater]

WOW really? Have you ever even been to an ASCA trial? From your post, its clear that you havent. Maybe you should attend one before writing such claims. I have attended trials where the dog lays down and the sheep are half way through the course before the dog even gets up. The aussie I referenced in my previous post was a dog that was more interested in sheep droppings than the stock in the arena, talk about course broke. My opinion is that AKC is much more of a test of someones ability than ASCA is. And I have competed in ASCA.

 

 

I knew if I stuck around here long enough, I'd get bit. Hang on, folks, I'm just clearing the air for a moment.

 

Yes, as a matter of fact, I have trialed ASCA for the past 9 years, though only with border collies. I finished a WTCh on my old Jesse two years ago, (it took him a while to decide he'd work poultry) and my young Nick finished his Started titles this year. In fact, with the aid of a sponsor, I entered Nick in all three stocks one weekend and he took 1st in every single class. Two days of trialing. Nifty buckle. No, I didn't know the judges and yes, Nick worked his ass off. Especially with the cattle, which soured fast and tended to bolt for the re-pen.

 

I'm sure the ASCA experience varies from trial to trial and place to place. Over-dogged and course-trained sheep can happen anywhere there's an arena trial. Nor will I argue that there are no-instinct, "bounce-and-bark" Aussies out there winning titles. In another discussion, I could even point them out as an example of what we're fighting to NOT let the border collie become. But I can't swear to how ASCA trials go in Idaho or Oregon or wherever. I can only speak for what I know, at trials I have attended in Nevada and sometimes in California.

 

However, we can agree to disagree on the merit of AKC trials. I've trialed in that, too, in years past. You see, I'm not a border collie snob who's never sent a dog around an arena course. I'm a 10-year arena trialer who's finally breaking out to a new and wider world.

Cheers ~

 

Gloria

P.S.

My apologies, folks, do carry on with the original conversation.

[jdarling]

Chaos,

 

You're splitting hairs with the AKC course and the ASCA course. Which one is harder? Who cares? They are both little ponds that Border Collie people can easily be a shark in. But for the sake of argument, let's compare.

 

Same size arena (or thereabouts).

$40-$50 entry fee per run.

No alcohol with either venue.

 

AKC "A" Course

 

Large flank, "lift," and fetch. (Usually the sheep run to the handler long before the dog gets behind them.)

Come around the post.

Hold the sheep to the fence while they go through the Y chute, the Z chute and into the pen.

Now here's where the dog and the handler have to muster up some talent. They take the sheep out of the pen and have to do a controlled escape from 4 to 5 ...

And then repen.

 

ASCA Course.

 

Gather. (Or a take pen, which is trickier than anything AKC offers.)

Hold the sheep to the fence while sheep walk through obstacle 1 and 2.

Pull sheep off fence (see 4 to 5 move above) and control the escape through the chute, or stick them in the freestanding pen (which the AKC "A" Course does not offer.)

Repen.

 

Do I have that about right?

[Gloria Atwater]

Tea, doG love ya!

 

Thanks, I needed to laugh.

[Gloria Atwater]

You got it, Jdarling! On all counts.

 

I'm almost tempted to delete my previous post, but what the hell. She intimated I didn't know what I was talking about, so I'll leave it stand.

 

Think I've about talked myself out, here, anyhow. Time to go fix dinner and contemplate working my dogs tomorrow.

Cheers ~

 

Gloria

[Cynthia P]

Ahhh i forgot about the no alcohol policy; i always hated that.

 

After my first open run which was at 9:15 in the morning; my husband brought me a beer. He's great!

 

Maybe that's why we are generally pretty darn happy at the USBCHA trials...except for the one that always complains about the judging or the sheep...have another beer/margarhita/shot/rum & diet...

 

cynthia

[ItsADogsLyfe]

Inner herder? Like THIS?

 

 

Hmm...this sounds vaguely familiar to me.

[ItsADogsLyfe]

I'd like to know how anyone could watch the USBCHA finals on the webcast the other day and possibly compare it to an AKC trial.

By this I mean the work being done in the USBCHA trial is worlds away from anything done in AKC. I've had Border Collies for over 10 years now and never bred even one litter of puppies. I'd love to have a pup from my Seth as I love him so much. He is a great working dog and has really proven himself to me in so many different areas. If it is real work (he likes to play games with me at trials) and he can see the purpose he will give it his all. I've had a few really top handlers tell me what a nice dog he is. Would I ever breed him? No most definitely not. For one thing I know his faults and as much as I love him and as good a working dog as he is, I honestly don't think he'd contribute much to the betterment of the breed. Out of my five very well bred Border Collies, who have all worked to some degree, I"d not breed any of them. I will leave the breeding up to the most knowledgable folks. The ones that know the breed through and through and have a knowledge of the dogs that goes back decades.

[Tea]

a controlled escape???

 

What is that?

 

Ok

 

I gotta go get a glass of the old wine.......

[glennkopp]

ASCA Course.

 

Gather. (Or a take pen, which is trickier than anything AKC offers.)

Hold the sheep to the fence while sheep walk through obstacle 1 and 2.

Pull sheep off fence (see 4 to 5 move above) and control the escape through the chute, or stick them in the freestanding pen (which the AKC "A" Course does not offer.)

Repen.

 

Do I have that about right?

 

I won't say there is any comparison between ASCA and USBCHA, but ASCA did add three new courses (D,E and F) this year. They're still arena courses, but there are more obstacles and they've moved them off the rail. Nothing like a field course, but they're at least more of a challenge than A and B, and more interesting. Also, ASCA offers ranch trials on a field, but I've yet to see one.

 

This has little to do with the ongoing debate, but I thought I'd throw it in.

 

Glenn

[airbear]

I will leave the breeding up to the most knowledgable folks. The ones that know the breed through and through and have a knowledge of the dogs that goes back decades.

Exactly how I feel! I have one, Lou, who has been running in Open for about 5 years now. He is a competent Open dog, with some strengths and some flaws. I had him neutered as I feel that, as lovely as he is (and he is the most magnificent creature ever to set foot on a trial field, in my opinion ), I know there are better examples of collies than he. Ditto Rex, who competed in both the CBCA and USBCHA Nursery finals last year (and made the short go of the USBCHA finals). He's a really neat dog, and he's going to be a fun one to trial. Plus, he's a real joy to have around the house, and he's been fun to train in agility. He's neutered now, for the same reasons that Lou is. There are better working dogs out there, and as much as I love my dogs, I am realistic about my knowledge of what made this breed what it is. I shall leave it to the experts, and when I want another working dog, I will go to a breeder whom I trust and admire.

[Journey]

Hey we ran a ASCA RTD class a few years ago in GA! It was a blast except most of the other handlers were scared to death..their dogs hadn't worked outside the arena before Field work, paddock work, chute work and penning. Typical farm chores.

[Kelly Selzle]

Hello everyone,

 

Mandy wrote, "While I can see your point I must also say that to define a true border collie as ONLY one that works the open usbcha level is ignorant."

 

To get an accurate assessment of a dog's talent and ability, most of us feel that the dog needs to be "fully trained" (trained to the level of the USBCHA open class, in addition to being capable of handling any chore on the farm). One reason for this is that a good working dog needs to be capable of withstanding the rigors of training to the highest level. There are far too many promising youngsters that look great early on in training, but they cannot handle the stress of upper level training. There is far more involved with assessing the talent and ability of a working dog than simply being pleased with how it starts down that long road to becoming a fully trained sheepdog.

 

Regards,

nancy

 

Well said Nancy.