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D'Elle

Well, I think I am getting a puppy.....

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As a relative newcomer to the breed, I find these discussions very informative and interesting..... So please folks, continue bashing your heads against the proverbial brick wall because for every person who publicly asks for advice and then follows it, there are many more that are simply reading and learning, just waiting to use that knowledge or pass it on to others.

 

Amen to this! And I don't even own a Border Collie (yet!).... I read a lot, but this may very well be my first post on this board!

 

My goal is to own a working Border Collie. I currently own an ACD (rescue, of unknown lineage)... I also see the same "split" happening in our breed, between the working-bred and the AKC/show-bred. I fell into herding because of him, and we got a Started title earlier this year. While that was an accomplishment for ME (each step was one more than I had ever planned on going with him when I first got him), I fully acknowledge and whole-heartedly agree that we don't even shake a stick at the skills displayed by a proven, working ACD, much less an an Open-level team (especially those I was able to watch on the Finals webcast last week).... and most definitely wouldn't use our accomplishment as a basis to breed him (had he still had all the equipment to do so!). I have tried to become a student of herding, observing what the top dogs and handlers do, and also taking note of what falls apart for those that aren't so successful. I was fortunate enough to be able to witness the training of a couple of the dogs who did well in Nursery this year, who came out of good, proven working breedings. I also witnessed plenty more on the other side of the coin - enough to know that I don't wanna go down that road...

 

My experiences, thus far, plus your well laid out points help point me even more in the right direction when it comes time for me to own one of these amazing dogs. As puppytoes said, please do continue bashing your heads against the wall on this one. Thank you.

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I will continue to watch the forums and read and learn. I am the first to admit that there are MANY more people out there more educated on border collies than I am and Im not afraid to admit that. I have a fantastic mentor who has taught me a lot and I continue to learn each day. There as a good comparison made between HD and open working dogs and I do not disagree, my point being that just because a dog is not at the open level yet doesnt mean it isnt worthy of being bred. There are other factors to consider when breeding a dog besides just its level of training, JMHO. HD is a whole other concern, to me that is black and white no gray areas, either the dog is tested and clean or its not. I feel that my bitch has more to add to the gene pool than just the extent of her current training.

 

Im not a backyard breeder, Im not just getting two dogs are breeding them together and hoping that something great happens. Thats not realistic. I have done my homework, I know the lines of both the bitch and the sire up and down. I know whats behind them and am making the best educated decision I can when it comes to making this cross. Someone said previously that the dogs that are both open and AKC herding champions are from ABCA lines and I agree because my dogs are as well. My dogs are "AKC" dogs, they are registered with them and compete with them but their lineage is working not show. I also want to make the point that I in no way said, " hey my dog has a started title im going to breed her" because that was not even close to a determining factor when we bred her.

 

Not everyone wants an open working dog and for those that do not everyone has USBCHA trials readily in their area. The reason you dont see Molly Wisecarvers name listed for finals points is because we live in ARIZONA. Last year we had 1 trial, 1. the year before that we had 1 MAYBE 2. I competed at that trial with my red male who at the time was very young and hey he did pretty good for his experience as well as my own. After that trial I was to pregnant at the time to attend the next one. I dont want to send my dog out to someone to trial because I want to do it myself, I want to learn and sending him to someone else wont do that for me. Learn by doing. Pretty hard to get a bunch of points when you are limited on trials. Its not realistic to expect someone to travel all around the states just to prove something to people that make no difference. Molly spends lots of time and money trialing in other venues such as ASCA and yes AKC, she does very well.

 

Like I said before, I will continue to watch this forum, I may comment here and there but just as I have already stated, im not changing your mind and you probably wont change mine.

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I have done my homework, I know the lines of both the bitch and the sire up and down. I know whats behind them and am making the best educated decision I can when it comes to making this cross.

 

 

Glad you are sticking around Mandy.

 

What you said (above) is fine but what about lateral as well? What about siblings of the sire and dam? Siblings of their sire and dam too? Too many folks get hung up on just the sire and dam, you have to look further and farther than that, imo.

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Amen to this! And I don't even own a Border Collie (yet!).... I read a lot, but this may very well be my first post on this board!...My goal is to own a working Border Collie.

My experiences, thus far, plus your well laid out points help point me even more in the right direction when it comes time for me to own one of these amazing dogs. As puppytoes said, please do continue bashing your heads against the wall on this one. Thank you.

Welcome, Jake&Tex! Looks like you have your eyes wide open, and best wishes in your hopes to have a good working Border Collie!

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I will continue to watch the forums and read and learn. I am the first to admit that there are MANY more people out there more educated on border collies than I am and Im not afraid to admit that. I have a fantastic mentor who has taught me a lot and I continue to learn each day. There as a good comparison made between HD and open working dogs and I do not disagree, my point being that just because a dog is not at the open level yet doesnt mean it isnt worthy of being bred. There are other factors to consider when breeding a dog besides just its level of training, JMHO. HD is a whole other concern, to me that is black and white no gray areas, either the dog is tested and clean or its not. I feel that my bitch has more to add to the gene pool than just the extent of her current training.

 

Im not a backyard breeder, Im not just getting two dogs are breeding them together and hoping that something great happens. Thats not realistic. I have done my homework, I know the lines of both the bitch and the sire up and down. I know whats behind them and am making the best educated decision I can when it comes to making this cross. Someone said previously that the dogs that are both open and AKC herding champions are from ABCA lines and I agree because my dogs are as well. My dogs are "AKC" dogs, they are registered with them and compete with them but their lineage is working not show. I also want to make the point that I in no way said, " hey my dog has a started title im going to breed her" because that was not even close to a determining factor when we bred her.

 

Not everyone wants an open working dog and for those that do not everyone has USBCHA trials readily in their area. The reason you dont see Molly Wisecarvers name listed for finals points is because we live in ARIZONA. Last year we had 1 trial, 1. the year before that we had 1 MAYBE 2. I competed at that trial with my red male who at the time was very young and hey he did pretty good for his experience as well as my own. After that trial I was to pregnant at the time to attend the next one. I dont want to send my dog out to someone to trial because I want to do it myself, I want to learn and sending him to someone else wont do that for me. Learn by doing. Pretty hard to get a bunch of points when you are limited on trials. Its not realistic to expect someone to travel all around the states just to prove something to people that make no difference. Molly spends lots of time and money trialing in other venues such as ASCA and yes AKC, she does very well.

 

Like I said before, I will continue to watch this forum, I may comment here and there but just as I have already stated, im not changing your mind and you probably wont change mine.

 

Just because a dog comes from good lines, doesn't necessarily mean a dog will actually achieve that. Mick has a very good working pedigree, but if I was to breed him, (moot point since he's neutered) it'd have to be on more than just that.

 

I'd rather get a pup off proven dogs without health testing than a dog with nothing but a nice pedigree and some tests.

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There as a good comparison made between HD and open working dogs and I do not disagree, my point being that just because a dog is not at the open level yet doesnt mean it isnt worthy of being bred. There are other factors to consider when breeding a dog besides just its level of training, JMHO. HD is a whole other concern, to me that is black and white no gray areas, either the dog is tested and clean or its not. I feel that my bitch has more to add to the gene pool than just the extent of her current training.

 

The portions of your quote that I have put in boldface type highlight a very common way of thinking within the AKC and a very important misconception, IMO. You are assuming that "level of training" is the only thing that could possibly be keeping your dog from being a successful dog at the open level. But that is a huge, unsupported assumption. Training may be virtually everything in obedience, agility, flyball, etc., but training is not everything in stock work. There is a very complex array of interrelated traits, skills and abilities that must be bred into a dog for it to work at the level expected of a good border collie. If they are not in there (and I'm not talking now merely about attraction to livestock and crouch-and-stare and intensity -- I'm talking about much more complicated things than you can see at an early stage of training), no amount of training can substitute for that.

 

And while you are ASSUMING that your dog has all that, there is simply no way that you can know that without trying to bring her to a higher level than where she is at present. In that respect, the parallel with the breeder who does not test for CHD is perfect. His dog may have fine hips. Just because the guy doesn't take the time or trouble to get the test administered doesn't mean the dog has CHD. If tested, the dog might come out as clean as his owner fervently believes. But the point is that if the owner does not test the dog for CHD, he does not KNOW if the dog is breedworthy (by your own standards) as regards CHD. And if you have not applied a real test of working ability to your dog, you do not know if she is breedworthy as regards working ability. That's the parallel.

 

Im not a backyard breeder, Im not just getting two dogs are breeding them together and hoping that something great happens. Thats not realistic. I have done my homework, I know the lines of both the bitch and the sire up and down. I know whats behind them and am making the best educated decision I can when it comes to making this cross.

 

I will assume you're not a backyard breeder, but what you've told us about how new you are to all this, coupled with the fact that you have brought your dog a relatively short way down a long road, I have to wonder where your ability comes from to "know the lines of both the bitch and the sire up and down," etc. What exactly is it that you know about them? Just their names?

 

ETA: In this regard, I'm struck by the name you've chosen to give to your breeding operation: Chaos Stockdogs. You should know that, however popular the notion of chaos may be in agility or flyball circles, chaos is not a concept that anyone wants to have associated with the way their livestock is worked or with their working stockdog.

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Not everyone wants an open working dog and for those that do not everyone has USBCHA trials readily in their area. The reason you dont see Molly Wisecarvers name listed for finals points is because we live in ARIZONA. Last year we had 1 trial, 1. the year before that we had 1 MAYBE 2. I competed at that trial with my red male who at the time was very young and hey he did pretty good for his experience as well as my own. After that trial I was to pregnant at the time to attend the next one. I dont want to send my dog out to someone to trial because I want to do it myself, I want to learn and sending him to someone else wont do that for me. Learn by doing. Pretty hard to get a bunch of points when you are limited on trials. Its not realistic to expect someone to travel all around the states just to prove something to people that make no difference. Molly spends lots of time and money trialing in other venues such as ASCA and yes AKC, she does very well.

 

Your are correct ... it's very difficult to be in the top 150 dogs in USBCHA points. It should be. We should be breeding the best to the best ... not "the most convenient to the most convenient" (as in who lives the closest to me). It's not easy for anyone to qualify a dog and a lot of travel is required.

 

Molly has gone to New Mexico and Meeker (USBCHA Open trials) and yet still hasn't made it to the top 150. This is not to put down Molly ... you are the one implying her dogs WOULD be in the top 150 if she didn't live in AZ. She comes to CA to show her dogs in AKC trials ... so if she wanted to prove her dogs abilities (above AKC "standards") she could come for the USBCHA ones also.

 

Border Collies were bred for WORK and that's what made the breed. Trials came after the work but the trials were "set up" to test the WORK (They were NOT on small courses, with dog broke sheep, and panels up against a fence). So, when you say "not everyone wants an open working dog" ... you are saying not everyone wants a Border Collie ... because the STANDARD of a Border Collie is it's WORK.

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Don't get me wrong; personally I think sport breeding is unnecessary, but I don't consider that I have the right to dictate to others what decisions they should make. I'd love to be able to order everyone to adopt rescue dogs and not to buy but I can't. I can, however, try to persuade. Ganging up and vilifying someone who may not agree with you can be counterproductive and drive the victim into the opposing camp.

 

If the working breeders can't voice their opposition to this, though I think they have more of a right than anybody, then how about those doing border collie rescue? Rarely do you see a well bred working border collie end up in rescue, at least around here. It happens occasionally, but it's not the norm. What you do see ALL THE TIME are border collies that have been so overbred for "sports" that they're screwed up. All they've been bred for is running fast, and, yes, that even goes for some of the really well known sport breeders. You put them next to a working bred BC, and you wouldn't think they were related if they didn't at least look a little bit alike. And while you may think that "to each thier own" and people can do what they want to do, rescue is just seeing more dogs bred like this that most people can't handle (responsible pet purchasing is a whole 'nother discussion), and the problem is only getting worse. So I'll make the argument for breeding only for working ability till I'm out of breath.

 

Yes I am proud of a started ASCA title, I am new to herding and although it may not be a large accomplishment for a border collie it is a large accomplishment for me.

 

But a large accomplishment for you means nothing when it comes to deciding to breed your dogs. It's great for YOU, and I'm sure you were thrilled, but it says little about your dog's actual abilities.

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If the working breeders can't voice their opposition to this, though I think they have more of a right than anybody, then how about those doing border collie rescue? Rarely do you see a well bred working border collie end up in rescue, at least around here. It happens occasionally, but it's not the norm. What you do see ALL THE TIME are border collies that have been so overbred for "sports" that they're screwed up. All they've been bred for is running fast, and, yes, that even goes for some of the really well known sport breeders.

 

Not that I disagree entirely with your POV, but as a person who has been involved in Border Collie rescue since 1990 in some form or another and also Papillon rescue since 2000 (another popular dog in agility and obedience), I have never received a dog with a known background that came from a reputable sport breeder. Of course, I can't know the background of every dog we get, but that's been my experience.

 

I also keep seeing the word "overbreeding." What exactly does that mean?

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Not that I disagree entirely with your POV, but as a person who has been involved in Border Collie rescue since 1990 in some form or another and also Papillon rescue since 2000 (another popular dog in agility and obedience), I have never received a dog with a known background that came from a reputable sport breeder. Of course, I can't know the background of every dog we get, but that's been my experience.

 

I also keep seeing the word "overbreeding." What exactly does that mean?

 

overbreeding = over producing

 

too many puppies

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I dont want to send my dog out to someone to trial because I want to do it myself, I want to learn and sending him to someone else wont do that for me. Learn by doing. Pretty hard to get a bunch of points when you are limited on trials. Its not realistic to expect someone to travel all around the states just to prove something to people that make no difference.

 

It's not about proving to people, it's about proving your dog. And it happens with any good working dog. It is simple to train to one set of standards in one area. But you don't know that your dog really has got what it takes until you test the dog in a variety of circumstances. I have a SAR dog. We generally train in the same few areas, with the same people (for some reason not everybody likes to spend their evenings in a woods full of mosquitoes waiting for a dog to come find them :rolleyes:). But to really know where our dogs are at, we need to take them to a new area and use "victims" they've never seen before. For certification they are in a new environment (new to the handler, too) with new "victims", because you're not sure they are capable of being a search dog until they do.

 

I've seen several people come to training and talk about how their dog would make a good SAR dog because of A, B or C. "he's always using his nose" is a common one. But use of nose does not = search dog, there are many other factors, hunt drive, solid nerves, work ethic, ability to focus. They really don't know until they train the dog and the dog passes the testing requirements.

 

FWIW, I have a dog who showed excellent early potential on stock (and she's a great farm dog) so much so that after working with my dog for about 15 minutes the trainer (USBCHA open handler and judge) asked me if she had was still intact. Which she was. I was very flattered to think that he thought I had a nice dog on my hands and I did think about breeding her for a little bit. But I decided against because she was already 6 at the time and I knew by the time I could prove to myself that she was worthy of breeding, she'd be too old. I want to learn with my dogs, too. Which is why I need to go to bed now. I'm getting up at an early hour in the morning and driving 2+ hours one way to work my dogs with a good trainer.

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...we live in ARIZONA...

(And I thought Arizona was still on this planet...you make it sound as if y'all live on Mars) :rolleyes: Seriously, I understand that everyone's situation is different, and that some folks can and will travel farther for trials than others can or will. But I'm just not buying that because y'all live in ARIZONA, it's impossible to get points enough to qualify to go to Finals or to "prove" a dog to be breed-worthy. I trial on cattle (only), and while we used to have a number of cattle trials in northern Ca, that is no longer the case. When we did, they were always somewhere between 8-12 hours away. I went as often as I could afford to (generally, one weekend a month). Those days are gone, and now the only trials I can get to are in WYOMING every summer (1200+ miles one way). Granted, we have a series of trials, so that we can get to 6 (+/-) or so within a 2+ week period. But that's where I go. A while back there was a thread asking how far we go for trials, and the bottom line seemed to be that most people do as much as possible, given their DESIRE to do so. So, like most things in life, if it's important, we make it happen. Trialling to me is important, because it's really the only way I can get my dogs out there to see how they stack up against the competiton, not just for the sake of competition (although that's a blast), but to "proof" my BREEDING PROGRAM,

A

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overbreeding = over producing

 

too many puppies

 

That too, but I actually meant it more in the sense that they've been breeding exclusively for sports without looking at the all around dog.

 

I DO know of cases where dogs from "good" sport breeders end up in rescue. It happens directly or it happens after the dog's been handed around a few times to friends/family/other agility people.

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overbreeding = over producing

 

too many puppies

 

I ask because I see the word "overbreeding" to describe many ills of purebred dogs, when I think "breeding too often" or "breeding inappropriately/for the wrong reasons" are more descriptive. Semantics, I know, but I dwell on those things.

 

I think breeding dogs for traits that are detrimental for the preservation of the traits that make them Border Collies is a different issue than producing too many dogs.

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...we live in ARIZONA...

 

So how far have you traveled for conformation shows?

 

And on another topic, in case you think we working stockdog people don't care about our dogs' health, please peruse the Health and Genetics section of this board for starters.

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(And I thought Arizona was still on this planet...you make it sound as if y'all live on Mars) :rolleyes: Seriously, I understand that everyone's situation is different, and that some folks can and will travel farther for trials than others can or will. But I'm just not buying that because y'all live in ARIZONA, it's impossible to get points enough to qualify to go to Finals or to "prove" a dog to be breed-worthy.

I heartily agree with this. I don't do the trailer race thing because I can't afford it. I go to trials in nearby states, and many of those aren't even that large WRT number of open entries. And yet, I manage to get enough points on at least one dog each year to get into the finals if I want to enter and go. I know I live in a part of the country where there are A LOT of trials, and before anyone points that out, what I'm saying is that I've never had to GO to A LOT of trials to get enough points to get a dog qualified. In fact, there are exactly three trials each year in the state of NC, and one of those I haven't gone to for the past four or five years. So anyone who lives in NC also has to trial out of state if they want to go to more than two or three trials a year.

 

J.

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I dont want to send my dog out to someone to trial because I want to do it myself, I want to learn and sending him to someone else wont do that for me. Learn by doing. Pretty hard to get a bunch of points when you are limited on trials. Its not realistic to expect someone to travel all around the states just to prove something to people that make no difference.

 

There's the problem for me. You're still learning how to train a sheepherding dog. I thoroughly believe that someone admittedly in the learning process should not be making breeding decisions. It takes a lot of hard-earned experience in order to accumulate the knowledge needed to decide which pairings will produce the best stockdogs.

 

IMO, you should have immersed yourself into the world of herding entirely before breeding. If you don't have time to travel, train, and show in the appropriate working venue, then you haven't experienced enough to make an objective opinion.

 

Enjoy your dogs, enjoy herding with them, enjoy them as companions. You've got the book knowledge, but you're still a novice when it comes to experience. JMHO

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I've had very few sport-bred border collies come into rescue either, with the exception of a particular flyball breeder's dogs. That breeder died though, so it hasn't been an issue for a few years now.

 

I HAVE had a good number of ABCA and CBCA registered dogs come through. But the bulk of the dogs that come through are just BYB bred dogs, as far as I can determine.

 

My question is, though, if you want to raise and train border collies for AKC type herding, why do you have to BREED them too? Can you just train and compete in those style of trials without breeding dogs? Is the world going to end if you take a few serious of years of learning how to work dogs without putting litters on the ground? I guess I just don't understand why you have to produce puppies at all. Maybe if you took a few years to really learn the fine art of working stockdogs, you'd have a better perspective on what should and should not be bred - and maybe you wouldn't either, but would it be a terrible thing if you took the time to find out without breeding more dogs?

 

RDM

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I

Not everyone wants an open working dog and for those that do not everyone has USBCHA trials readily in their area. The reason you dont see Molly Wisecarvers name listed for finals points is because we live in ARIZONA. Last year we had 1 trial, 1. the year before that we had 1 MAYBE 2. I competed at that trial with my red male who at the time was very young and hey he did pretty good for his experience as well as my own. After that trial I was to pregnant at the time to attend the next one. I dont want to send my dog out to someone to trial because I want to do it myself, I want to learn and sending him to someone else wont do that for me. Learn by doing. Pretty hard to get a bunch of points when you are limited on trials. Its not realistic to expect someone to travel all around the states just to prove something to people that make no difference. Molly spends lots of time and money trialing in other venues such as ASCA and yes AKC, she does very well.

 

Like I said before, I will continue to watch this forum, I may comment here and there but just as I have already stated, im not changing your mind and you probably wont change mine.

 

 

I think you could have it worse. There is this place called Las Vegas and I qualify as the "most" active USBCHA handler out of....wait for it...two whole people in Southern Nevada. It's been March of '09 since I was entered in an Open trial (hey, in AZ of all places :rolleyes: !) and my personal circumstances have kept me out of it for this year. The other person who was quite active at one point hasn't trialed for over 5 years, as far as I know. At least in AZ, you have a fairly active herding club- the pity is that the emphasis seems to be on AKC/AHBA and not USBCHA. I was so excited to go to the USBCHA trial in AZ and the people were great and it was a fun group. I really appreciated having a trial so "close" (4 1/2 hours) to home. The course was very small but it was still had potential to be a nice, fun trial. However, I was disheartened to watch cheering going on while a non-border collie repeatedly ran sheep into the fence. I am not unforgiving about wrecks -they happen. At this same trial, my own inexperienced dog had a wreck. The difference is that I called my dog off and retired her immediately. I did not continue my run and I apologized for the sheep that crashed into the exhaust gate. I certainly would have expected being called off if I had not had the grace to retire my own dog, but I saw several runs that day where dogs were making no progress, sheep were continually being chased into the fence and no one calling those dogs off. I don't think I saw a single dog called off and I saw at least three, if not more, that should have been.

 

On the AZ herding club site, there are several working sites listed in AZ and to me, it seems like a wealthy amount of people with working dogs. I wish I could count so many in my state. About five years ago, they had an excellent USBCHA trial, with some Pre-novice silliness, but otherwise a very suitable trial near to Prescott. I wonder if the support just wasn't there to keep that going because as far as I know, it hasn't been repeated despite having a very good turn out. I have talked to people who would like to be more involved in the AZ herding community but they are turned off by the catering to AKC and so, like me, choose to travel far to get to the best venue for their dogs.

 

You won't see my name in the top 150 either, and I think we have some decent dogs. We have the son of a National Champion (neutered) and a daughter of a Top 10 USBCHA National Finals cattledog. You will also not see me advertising puppies, because I believe in proving my dogs out. I have exactly one intact dog and although I'm over the moon for her, I want her to prove to me both at home and on the trial field that she's something special before I consider breeding her. If I just went on pure puppy love, bloodlines and what I feel her talent is, I'd feel justified in breeding her now that she's 3. But I've been down the road before and realized how difficult it is to make an improvement on the dogs I have. It's pretty hard just to break even, talent-wise, unless you've really figured out what makes those dogs tick and what is the right thing to breed to. As much as I like my current dog (hey, you can watch for her soon at a USBCHA trial too!), I need to compare her against her peers and have an objective way to measure her against the standard of her breed. It's not enough that she can do the work at home. If she doesn't measure up on a challenging USBCHA course, whether it's because of her talent or because I can't get to enough trials or additional training/stock/etc to make it work - a very real possiblity - she won't be bred. This is why it's been over ten years since I bred anything. I know where to get good pups or started dogs. There is no bloodline out there that's so rare that justifies breeding dogs that have not been trained to an Open level, whether that dog trials or performs the work on the ranch.

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>>You won't see my name in the top 150 either, and I think we have some decent dogs. We have the son of a National Champion (neutered) and a daughter of a Top 10 USBCHA National Finals cattledog<<

 

Your female is also the granddaughter of the USBCHA Sheepdog THIRD place dog...many years ago. And your female's dam was a top Nursery dog in the UK before she was imported. And your male's dam was the third dog to get her ROM.

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>>You won't see my name in the top 150 either, and I think we have some decent dogs. We have the son of a National Champion (neutered) and a daughter of a Top 10 USBCHA National Finals cattledog<<

 

Your female is also the granddaughter of the USBCHA Sheepdog THIRD place dog...many years ago. And your female's dam was a top Nursery dog in the UK before she was imported. And your male's dam was the third dog to get her ROM.

 

That too, I just didn't want to seem like I was bragging :rolleyes:.

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Well, you should brag....you have done quite a bit to showcase your dogs, even in your area of no trials. I know you have gone to CA for lessons and trials and your dogs made an impact.

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Well, you should brag....you have done quite a bit to showcase your dogs, even in your area of no trials. I know you have gone to CA for lessons and trials and your dogs made an impact.

 

Thanks Diane - and I have had my share of wrecks in California too :rolleyes:!

 

I am proud of my dogs and Mike's Brice and excited to trial Jet soon - hopefully in November if the budget allows.

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:rolleyes: Sorry to say, but I live in ARIZONA.....We own several Border Collies. So far, we haven't trialled a single one. We travel far and wide to WATCH at trials and learn as much as we can. We logged in to the webcast and watched as many of the top 40 as we could (had to go buy hay in the middle of it) and watched all of the top 17. I would by no means call myself an expert nor would I hold myself out as a trainer simply because I had read some pedigrees and been to a few trials. We have however seen the difference between an AKC trial and a USBCHA trial. It is my firm belief that the USBCHA is much more in line with the "working" Border Collie. We have travelled many hours for training help and are working toward running our dogs in Nursery this year. I don't believe that ARIZONA is a limit on the ability to trial your dog. It has been my experience in life that before you put your foot forward (or open your mouth too wide), you should probably take the time to travel a little and listen to the people that are making it in the field you wish to pursue. I know we plan to. The AKC trial we attended seemed almost comical and had little to do with actual work and more to do with "see how cute my doggie is". Sorry, but I am more interested in the real "farm type" work that USBCHA trialling is about. If you are serious about what you do, you make time to do it right.

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I think you could have it worse. There is this place called Las Vegas and I qualify as the "most" active USBCHA handler out of....wait for it...two whole people in Southern Nevada.

 

 

*waves* Howdy from the other end of the same state. :rolleyes: Yup, active USBCHA handlers are scarce as hens teeth in these parts. You're one. I'm ... well, hoping to be another, at some point. Though I'll be in Pro-Novice next year, for starters. Like you, I'll be driving over to California to trial, since there are exactly NO border collie trials in the entire state of Nevada. Dunno about Utah, but it's 9 hours away, so ... We do what we gotta do.

 

.......... There is no bloodline out there that's so rare that justifies breeding dogs that have not been trained to an Open level, whether that dog trials or performs the work on the ranch.

 

I'm pleased to see that distinction. As a newer person on these boards, I'd be wondering just today, "But what about all those dogs who never set foot on a trial field?" Your description matches what I'd been pondering. A trained, useful, essentially finished dog. I'll go with that. :D

 

Interesting discussion, but I'm too sleepy to brain further tonight.

Cheers ~

 

Gloria

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