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D'Elle
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I want to make a point to state that AKC doesn’t ruin breeds, it’s the breeders and fanciers within AKC that ruins the dogs. Breeders make the decisions to breed dogs for looks rather than working ability. I agree, the border collie as a whole is being ruined by such practices. I feel that the true test for the breed is versatility, Border Collies should have the drive and working ability to do those Open Trials but they should also have the control to work in an arena. By boycotting AKC, you arent changing anything, you are making the problem worse. Face it, when people are looking for a puppy they look for AKC, and if all they see is a black and white st. Bernard looking border collie then that’s what they will get. Rather than standing against AKC why don’t we ban together and show AKC what a “real” border collie is.

 

Hi Mandy,

 

Many others have already posted some very on point responses (which I whole heartedly agree with) to your post.

 

I would just like to ask if you have read the book "The Dog Wars: How the Border Collie Battled the AKC" by Donald McCaig? If you haven't, I would suggest that you do.

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Hi Mandy, welcome to the Boards.

 

I have the kennel with the litter coming up that has been bashed on this forum. I am hurt that a group of Border Collie fanciers would feel the need to name call and criticize someones breeding practices without talking to them directly to hear their stance on the subject.

 

I don't think anyone who posted here would consider themselves a "fancier." Far from it. And they were responding to what you say on your website, which I assume comes from you directly.

 

I agree that many of the conformation bred dogs cannot compare with a true working dog. And yes I would consider ALL my border collies true working dogs. Until you have worked or seen my dogs work you cannot say otherwise. Either of my BCs would be excellent open level working dogs with the right training.

 

It is not just conformation-bred dogs who cannot compare with a true working dog. Over time, dogs who are bred without any way of assessing and testing their working ability also can no longer compare with a true working-bred dog. As others have pointed out, it is easy to say (and believe) how wonderful your dogs would be "if only," but it's also meaningless. Not only do you not know that, you don't even seem to realize that you can't know it.

 

I want to make a point to state that AKC doesn’t ruin breeds, it’s the breeders and fanciers within AKC that ruins the dogs. Breeders make the decisions to breed dogs for looks rather than working ability.

 

Yes, breeders and fanciers within AKC ruin the dogs, with the help and guidance of the AKC, whose philosophy of breeding is antithetical to the working dog, and whose whole operation is set up to reward those who breed for the wrong reasons. Breeders do make the decision to breed dogs for looks, and also to breed dogs who have not demonstrated working ability, and to breed for "versatility," because AKC rewards breeding for looks and "versatility" -- ribbons and titles for all different things.

 

By boycotting AKC, you arent changing anything, you are making the problem worse. Face it, when people are looking for a puppy they look for AKC, and if all they see is a black and white st. Bernard looking border collie then that’s what they will get. Rather than standing against AKC why don’t we ban together and show AKC what a “real” border collie is. Did you know that many judges have NO idea that Border Collies can come in anything but Rough coat? Shame isn’t it?

 

No, it's a matter of total indifference to me what AKC judges think border collies should look like. I devote my efforts to convincing people that it should be a matter of total indifference to EVERYONE what AKC judges think border collies should look like. You can't show AKC "what a 'real' border collie is" in the breed ring, because what a real border collie is has nothing to do with what you can see in the breed ring.

 

I take my dogs to conformation shows, their little bones and lack of coat, and goofy ears and you know what, unless they are the only dog in the ring they lose. And Im ok with that because at some point there will be a judge that appreciates them and that is the payoff that I need. AKC needs to change their mind about what a border collie is and unless the people breeding the right type of dogs don’t step up then its not going to happen.

 

I will never understand why it should matter to anyone one way or another whether an AKC judge appreciates their dog in the breed ring. So what? Why should we exalt and support a practice in which people who know nothing about "real" border collies judge whether our dogs are "real" border collies or not based on how they look? It's a ludicrous misunderstanding of what our breed is all about.

 

Have you competed in an AKC trial? Its much harder than you are giving it credit for.

 

I have certainly not competed in them, but I have seen them, and I totally disagree that they are a good test of working ability. In fact, you might be interested in this account of one of the AKC trials I've seen, since it casts an interesting sidelight on the AKC mentality.

 

I will agree that USBCHA trials are MUCH more difficult and truly you need a nice dog to be competitive but you also need a nice dog to be competitive in AKC trial events.

 

Those who think so will be quite content to see working ability diminish in their lines, because they won't even realize it's diminishing.

 

AKC needs to be changed from the inside out, boycotting them will do nothing. I have personally witnessed the Australian Shepherds being ruined by such boycotting. Last year the winner of an ASCA trial never once looked at the sheep, pottied in the ring and was more interested in eating sheep droppings than working its stock. Is this what you want to see at AKC events?

 

I couldn't care less what is seen at AKC events. In fact, I would be happy if that's how AKC Border Collies looked in AKC events. Then it might be more obvious to people that you cannot produce quality working dogs under the AKC system, and that inevitably the AKC Border Collies are going to be fundamentally different from the real working border collie. Do you have any reason to think the Australian Shepherds outside the AKC have been "ruined"?

 

As for AKC needing to be changed from the inside out -- well, there is simply no possibility of that. Surely a moment's reflection on the AKC's size, the AKC's philosophy, and the AKC's total indifference to the welfare of the border collie should convince you of that. But I guess saying it sounds good. And it's a good excuse if you want to be active in AKC with Border Collies.

 

Unless good dogs are there working, its only going to get worse. AKC people compete to win, so I challenge you to bring your dogs to an AKC trial and wipe the floor with these mediocre dogs.

 

There are some people doing that. (See above link for one example.) What difference has it made? I can't understand even in theory what difference you think it could make. It just makes some relatively small frogs look like big frogs because they're in such a small, fetid pond.

 

Unless good dogs are out there, standards will start to drop, hence worsening the problem for everyone involved.

 

Good dogs ARE out here, outside of AKC, where they should be. What does it mean for standards to drop, in "herding" competitions where Shelties, Corgis, Schnauzers, Samoyeds and Bernese Mountain Dogs need to be able to earn ribbons and titles?

 

{quote} Face it, AKC is here to stay, so bite the bullet and raise the bar to what you feel is the correct border collie, rather than sitting at the sidelines, mocking those who are trying to better the breed, and watching it fall. {/quote}

 

"Mocking those who are trying to better the breed"? What on earth are you talking about? We HONOR those who are trying to better the breed. Devoting the time and effort it takes to understand working ability, test and assess your dog for working ability, and learn about breeding for working ability before breeding is what bettering the breed is all about. It's people who breed without doing that who merit criticism.

 

I'm sure your dogs have great working dogs in their lines. Pretty much all border collies, even puppy mill dogs, do. But if you're not breeding with the same high standards as those breeders did who produced those great working dogs, you're just running on their fumes. You're not putting any more fuel in the tank.

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I respect everyones opinion and everyone is certainly entitled to it. The problem with boycotting AKC is that its not changing anything, ALL the herding AKC trials here in Arizona fill each and every time, they arent losing money without your entries. Any the money from registration probably doesnt make them lose sleep at night either. Be the change you wish to see, because right now the Border Collie is changing into two seperate breeds and unless more people step out and try to make a difference in the AKC world, its only going to get worse.

 

As far as breeding my dogs, I dont feel that a dog has to prove itself in open level work in order to be worthy enough to be bred. All my dogs and dogs I have bred to are more than qualified as great dogs. They have proven their working ability and talent time and time again. They work on Molly Wisecarvers ranch moving sheep, sorting sheep, moving them over bridges, through chutes, in trailers, etc. While I agree that USBCHA especially at the open level is the ultimate test for this breed, just because my dogs arent there yet doesnt make them any less of nice dog. They have been genetically tested and are clean and they have the working ability to back it up. As I read on another forum you can breed two open working dogs and have puppies in that litter that just wont stack up as a good working dog. We can only do the best we can when it comes to breeding and Im making decisions that I feel are correct.

 

Im sure you do hear the line "if only" and truly unless my dogs are at that open level, all I can say is "someday" If there were more trials in the area and if I were more advanced in my training yes, my dogs would be further along than they are, but they certainly show lots of promise and they have a lot to offer the gene pool of border collies. You dont have to agree, we can all agree to disagree.

 

I know that I will not change the minds of many of you on this forum if any, and Im OK with that, but I have no problem defending my actions because I have put a lot of time and money into my dogs, I am not just some backyard breeder looking to make a quick buck because honestly, my last litter i lost money. With all the trialing, health testing and care, you dont make money, much at all. I have done my homework and I am doing what I feel is best.

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I respect everyones opinion and everyone is certainly entitled to it. The problem with boycotting AKC is that its not changing anything, ALL the herding AKC trials here in Arizona fill each and every time, they arent losing money without your entries. Any the money from registration probably doesnt make them lose sleep at night either. Be the change you wish to see, because right now the Border Collie is changing into two seperate breeds and unless more people step out and try to make a difference in the AKC world, its only going to get worse.

 

Perhaps Eileen and others were not clear enough. Most of us aren't boycotting the AKC. The AKC is irrelevant to the proving of working stockdogs (especially for breeding). Except that it promotes the lowering of the bar, as your posts illustrate.

 

And the breed split cannot happen fast enough for those who wish to preserve the working border collie as the useful stockdog it has been for hundreds of years.

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I respect everyones opinion and everyone is certainly entitled to it. The problem with boycotting AKC is that its not changing anything, ALL the herding AKC trials here in Arizona fill each and every time, they arent losing money without your entries. Any the money from registration probably doesnt make them lose sleep at night either. Be the change you wish to see, because right now the Border Collie is changing into two seperate breeds and unless more people step out and try to make a difference in the AKC world, its only going to get worse.

And in our world, having the border collie as clearly two separate breeds, the AKC breed and the working breed, just isn't a bad thing, which is essentially what Eileen already said. I doubt you read this entire thread, so I'll point out again that I am on a forum that consists largely of folks who herd within the AKC. These are people who have a vested interest in their breed of choice, and they strive to make the AKC herding program a good one--one that actually is a good test of working dogs. They themselves say they have been rebuffed at every turn by the AKC. If these owners of herding breeds and long-time members of AKC, who really don't have an alternative the way working border collie folk do, can't effect change from within, despite trying ever since the herding program was instituted, do you really think YOU and other breeders like you can? I think you already know the answer to that question, but choose not to care.

 

And sure local AKC trials fill. As Eileen also pointed out, for many people success and titles and ribbons, even if all those come from a very small pond, are a huge lure. And a selling point for all the puppies from titled dogs, to other people who don't really know any different. So of course people get sucked in. I for one am not concerned about making AKC lose money by not entering their trials. Most of us are taking a PHILOSOPHICAL stance here. And that philosophical stance says that you can't play with the AKC and remain true to the real roots of the breed. Nor can you truly work to preserve the working border collie when you buy into a culture that is about anything BUT the work. What amazes me the most about people who claim that they are going to work from within to ranks of AKC to create change is that they are either blind to the past history of so many other purpose-bred dogs or else they simply don't care about that history. No one could possibly look at the AKC track record and think that the results for any breed created for an actual working purpose have been anything but devastating for most every breed AKC has touched. The exceptions are those breed clubs who have kept SEPARATE working lines.

 

J.

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I respect everyones opinion and everyone is certainly entitled to it. The problem with boycotting AKC is that its not changing anything, ALL the herding AKC trials here in Arizona fill each and every time, they arent losing money without your entries. Any the money from registration probably doesnt make them lose sleep at night either. Be the change you wish to see, because right now the Border Collie is changing into two seperate breeds and unless more people step out and try to make a difference in the AKC world, its only going to get worse.

 

The change I wish to see -- given that AKC is what it is and cannot be stopped from registering border collies -- IS the border collie changing into two separate breeds. One will be defined by its work, the other will not. May the time come soon when they no longer share the same name, because two different breeds under the same name is confusing. I would have liked to avoid the split, but once the AKC began registering border collies a split was inevitable, and is preferable to running our dogs over the same cliff the AKC dogs are being run over just for the sake of keeping them all together.

 

I won't reply to the rest of your post, because I'm sure you ARE "making decisions that [you] feel are correct." Perhaps you will come to a point where you see it differently some day; perhaps not. It's hard to make someone value something they don't value.

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Hi Mandy,

 

This might seem like a dumb question, but I think your answer will help me understand your point of view: Why do you show your dogs in conformation?

 

 

They have been genetically tested and are clean and they have the working ability to back it up.

 

This sounds good on its face (though I'd switch the order of these two ^ variables). I would be very interested to find out more about this notion from those who breed working border collies. (If there is a related thread I'd be grateful for a link.) I imagine a lot goes into the decision to breed, like balancing working ability and wishing to avoid (within reason) perpetuating heritable diseases (I've been following the deafness thread with interest). How common is it to wait until the two dogs being bred have trialed successfully in Open to breed them? Or is "Open work" more loosely understood than this, to mean working well on a farm or ranch using skills seen in Open?

 

Thanks,

Barbara

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I know I've said all this before here, but will tell my tale one more time...when I first began with these dogs, my original mentor had working bred border collies and ran in USBCHA trials, but was willing to work with any of the "herding breeds." When the "dog wars" began, he was very vocal against the AKC, but then turned around and became a herding judge for them. I heard the same "change from within" rhetoric. I bought into it, and became a judge for them as well. Yes, in order to do so, I had to ILP my dog and get an "advanced title" on him. This was done in one weekend, three trials to earn all three "legs"--done. So I went on and judged for them for a handful of years. So, yes, I have run in their trials, and, even worse, judged for them. So to say that the AKC trials are "harder than you think" doesn't work for me. I know what those "trials" are all about, and know for a fact that they are just easy-peasy, trot around the arena with super dog-broke, course-trained sheep, no relation to "real" working dogs at all.

 

Over the course of time, I discovered that 1) I didn't get called for many judging jobs because I routinely did not "qualify" many dogs (I wasn't seeing many dogs doing any work), and 2) each time I arrived at a trial site, I would wander around mumbling to myself, "What the F--- am I doing here?!?!" I would observe all these people excited about getting titles, completely oblivious to the concept of what real work was. So, OK, hang in there and try to educate them as to what real work was (that change from within thing, remember?). Well, ya know what? Nobody gave a shit what the real work was. All they wanted was their titles.

 

I resigned from judging for them, and have never looked back. I am very outspoken against their whole program, and everything they stand for. But what I am MOST against is breeding for anything other than a high level of working ability. Because I see these dogs ALL THE TIME--sport bred, just randomly bred, or just crappily bred. And as the years go by, it has become harder, and harder, and harder to work with these dogs (hence the quote in my sig. line). I see firsthand LOTS and LOTS of "border collies" that are not bred for the one and only right reason, and I see owners struggling with these dogs, trying to get them to work decently. Then along comes a really well-bred pup, who, at 14 weeks (first time on stock), puts these other dogs (who have been struggling for 2 months) to total shame, with his natural balance and feel for stock. Makes it all look easy, and it can be, if the dog has been bred properly.

 

Saying that a dog does not need to be proven to be worthy enough to breed is just completely not getting the point. Proving a dog to the highest level is THE ONLY WAY TO ENSURE THE BREED WORTHINESS. But I guess it all boils down to the old adage, "sometimes you just don't even know what you don't know."

A

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How common is it to wait until the two dogs being bred have trialed successfully in Open to breed them?

I can only answer for myself. I keep bitches. I wait until they are generally 4 years old or so, so that I am SURE they are demonstrating working ability worthy of passing on. By then, they have run in Nursey (cattle, often they get two nursery years) and have also run in Open. In Nursery, they have all run at the Finals and made it into the top 10 to run in the final go. In Open, they generally make it into the top 20 for the final go of Open, as well (one year I had one just miss the cutoff by 1 point). So, I am making sure they are competitive at a NATIONAL level. That's just me--can't speak for anyone else.

 

Right now, I have a youngster (not yet 2), who trialled on cattle this past summer in Nursery, and caught everyone's attention. She consistently finished in the top 5 (usually 15+ dogs), and won one. I've had some top triallers/breeders (cattle National Champions, both Nursery and Open), already talk to me about breeding to her. I'm sure she'll continue to prove herself, but I'll still wait until she's around 4 to breed her, just to make sure.

 

Pretty seriously competitive at a national level--that's my criterion,

A

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I respect everyones opinion and everyone is certainly entitled to it. The problem with boycotting AKC is that its not changing anything, ALL the herding AKC trials here in Arizona fill each and every time, they arent losing money without your entries. Any the money from registration probably doesnt make them lose sleep at night either. Be the change you wish to see, because right now the Border Collie is changing into two seperate breeds and unless more people step out and try to make a difference in the AKC world, its only going to get worse.

 

But if this is really the case, how is one person going to change it from the inside? The only reason the breed is changing is due to the AKC. Period. Why should others have to adjust to change with an organization who's biggest interest is their own financial bottom line? The reason they register Border Collies is that there is a huge financial benefit to them. Period. Stop. This is the same organization that was looking for ways to streamline the registration process or registering puppy mill puppies.

 

Personally I'd like to see the breed split. I wish they'd close the books. Border Collies were developed and survived just fine before the AKC

 

I hope you don't take this personally because it's not intended as such and I believe you are a person who does have her dogs best interest at heart and works to do right by them. But the AKC as a whole sure doesn't.

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While I agree that USBCHA especially at the open level is the ultimate test for this breed, just because my dogs arent there yet doesnt make them any less of nice dog. They have been genetically tested and are clean and they have the working ability to back it up. As I read on another forum you can breed two open working dogs and have puppies in that litter that just wont stack up as a good working dog. We can only do the best we can when it comes to breeding and Im making decisions that I feel are correct.

 

Since you seem to feel that "you can breed two open working dogs and have puppies in that litter that just wont stack up as a good working dog" and as we all know, even two parents who are OFA excellent can produce dysplastic pups, then why do you bother to hip test your dogs? What am I missing in your reasoning?

 

It's all about odds.

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May I just ask a question?

 

Why can't those of you who care about preserving working ability do as your counterparts here do and stick to your own aims and objectives and let those who breed for other activities get on with what they do, whether they favour BCs or any other working breed? Pragmatic rather than dogmatic.

 

Why does it matter to you that someone who eats, sleeps and breathes Agility or Flyball and never goes within 50 miles of a flock of sheep with their dog may not care a jot about whether their dog has the makings of a trialling champion?

 

That isn't intended to be rude, I just wonder why you can't just accept the status quo when you aren't going to be able to change it. You may well deplore it but beating your head against a brick wall just gives you a headache.

 

We've had longer to adjust here, I suppose. When I was a child in the 50s hardly anybody had a collie purely as a pet. Competitive Obedience was very much in its infancy and for non professionals pretty much the only game to play was Working Trials. Obedience gained a foothold and a few people started to breed with that in mind but still plenty of competition dogs came from real working lines, as they do now.

 

Of course the rot really set in in 1976 when our KC recognised the BC with the collusion of some in the ISDS, to their shame, but that's water under the bridge now. Continuing to fight old battles is pointless. I accept that the wound may be rather more raw in the US though.

 

Agility was invented in 1978, and gradually the BC became the dominant breed. Perfectly natural that those who wanted to get to the top would consider breeding for that purpose, just as those producing service dogs do, and, dare I say it, those who work their dogs.

 

Don't get me wrong; personally I think sport breeding is unnecessary, but I don't consider that I have the right to dictate to others what decisions they should make. I'd love to be able to order everyone to adopt rescue dogs and not to buy but I can't. I can, however, try to persuade. Ganging up and vilifying someone who may not agree with you can be counterproductive and drive the victim into the opposing camp.

 

I don't buy the "work to change from within" argument. We get that from those seeking to justify their taking part in FCI pedigree only Agility events. Our KC isn't all bad at all but I wish the whole breed/show side of it would just disappear down a bottomless pit. It isn't going to happen though so I choose to have nothing to do with that side of things. Much better for my blood pressure than getting my knickers in a twist all the time.

 

Pam

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Don't get me wrong; personally I think sport breeding is unnecessary, but I don't consider that I have the right to dictate to others what decisions they should make.

 

"Dictating to others" is when you force them to do as you want them to do. We don't and can't do that. "Education" is when you use facts and reasoning to try to persuade others to your point of view. Everybody's always in favor of education, right? And sometimes it actually changes someone's mind.

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That isn't intended to be rude, I just wonder why you can't just accept the status quo when you aren't going to be able to change it. You may well deplore it but beating your head against a brick wall just gives you a headache.

Pam

 

When the staus quo is unacceptable, the person with integrity struggles to change it. Owning black people to chop the cotton used to be the status quo. Thank doG there were those who butted that brick wall.

 

If you have been following recent developments in this very thread, you will see a head-inflicted crack in the "well-bred Border Collie brick wall." Yes, the wall is still there. But one more person has seen the light admitted by that crack - and made a decision that will help to bring it down.

 

Chalk up another one for the Border Collie Boards!

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Why does it matter to you that someone who eats, sleeps and breathes Agility or Flyball and never goes within 50 miles of a flock of sheep with their dog may not care a jot about whether their dog has the makings of a trialling champion?

 

<snip>

 

Agility was invented in 1978, and gradually the BC became the dominant breed. Perfectly natural that those who wanted to get to the top would consider breeding for that purpose, just as those producing service dogs do, and, dare I say it, those who work their dogs.

 

BEcause that someone who "East sleeps and breathes Agility or Flyball" is likely to be more common here than someone who need the dog to do stockwork, and probably more common than someone who even just trials for sport. So it seems prudent to me to make attempts to educate as much as humanly possible so that those poeple understand why they should still get wrking bred BCs even if they never want them to work.

 

It IS perfectly natural to think you should be breeding for agility if that is what you do and care deeply about. Which is sad, because once you understand the big picture you realize how much that would change the breed. And when so many more dogs are being bred for different purposes, diffuse purposes (versatility) or careless purposes (BYB), it can swamp out the working backbone through sheer numbers.

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Because of the extensive brain washing by the kennel clubs it has become a very difficult concept for most people to accept that the breed Border Collie is not defined as a black & white dog of a certain size and ear set but a dog of any size, color, coat, etc that is capable of working stock to a certain high level of ability.

 

This means, breeding for any other purpose than working livestock is no different than trying to create a new breed (for example an Agile Barbie). In the kennel club point of view, breeding border collies for agility would be like breeding a golden to a poodle; the pups are not golden retrievers or poodles.

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While I can see your point I must also say that to define a true border collie as ONLY one that works the the open usbcha level is ignorant. I dont believe that AKC is detrimental to the development of this breed, they have done some great things and they have done some not so great things. I believe the same is true for some of those that only breed open working dogs, health issues are large concern and many top handlers do not do health testing, this is a problem and talk about ruining a breed. Just because I choose to train and trial in AKC doesnt make my dogs any less than a true border collie. Yes I am proud of a started ASCA title, I am new to herding and although it may not be a large accomplishment for a border collie it is a large accomplishment for me. Everyone starts somewhere and Im sure that the first time you had a good run at the prenovice level you were over the moon. I have every right to show every accomplishment myself and my dogs achieve, regardless how irrelevant you think it may be. I choose to show in conformation because I personally enjoy it, and to be honest, my dogs do as well. They are not overdone, they dont have tree trunks for legs and their hair doesnt weigh them down, but structurally they are correct and I have no problem broadcasting that. And after that show they can turn around and work whatever stock you throw at them whether it be ducks, sheep or cattle. It makes no difference to me who agrees or who disagrees. If it makes you feel better to degrade someone else and their breeding program then by all means, have at it, I know my dogs and I wholeheartedly believe in what I am producing. Trialing in AKC makes me happy, it makes my dogs happy and I will continue to support them and breed what I personally feel is a true border collie.

 

 

 

I am opting out of this discussion, we all hold very strong opinions and beliefs and to be honest, neither side will compromise those. Consequently we are wasting our time and breath discussing the issue. Thank you for the input, I hope Im not coming across as rude, hopefully we will meet at a nearby trial in the future :rolleyes: If there is a USBCHA trial coming up in the future in Arizona feel free to stop by and watch an open handler, Molly Wisecarver, that trains and trials in both AKC and USBCHA with the same dogs, you might just be surprised at how "true" her border collies are.

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Hello again Mandy,

 

.... because right now the Border Collie is changing into two seperate breeds and unless more people step out and try to make a difference in the AKC world, its only going to get worse.

 

As others have mentioned, this is exactly what those of us who treasure the true working Border Collie want! Personally, I hope that the chasm between true working Border Collies and the AKC version becomes as wide and deep as possible!

 

nancy

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That isn't intended to be rude, I just wonder why you can't just accept the status quo when you aren't going to be able to change it. You may well deplore it but beating your head against a brick wall just gives you a headache.

 

As a relative newcomer to the breed, I find these discussions very informative and interesting. I have never purchased a puppy from a breeder and i probably never will but if i did, i would know exactly what type of breeder to look for thanks to those people on this board who refuse to accept the status quo. Even though i may never use this information about what makes a border collie a border collie in regards to a purchase (as a non-stockdog person, rescue works just fine for me), you better believe that when people see my dog and want to know where i got him, i talk their ear off about how to go about getting a puppy if they need one from a breeder. So please folks, continue bashing your heads against the proverbial brick wall because for every person who publicly asks for advice and then follows it, there are many more that are simply reading and learning, just waiting to use that knowledge or pass it on to others.

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If it makes you feel better to degrade someone else and their breeding program then by all means, have at it,

 

Of course it doesn't make me feel better to "degrade" someone. What a thought! I'm sure nobody gets enjoyment from discussing the facts about your breeding program, or expressing an opinion about it. But it would be a disservice to the border collie breed not to point out actions and viewpoints that are detrimental to the breed. I would like to think I've done that with courtesy, and as far as I've seen everyone else did also.

 

health issues are large concern and many top handlers do not do health testing, this is a problem and talk about ruining a breed.

 

Interesting that you did not respond to Denise's point. You say that you don't have to test your dogs in open or any comparably rigorous way for working ability to know that they have it, and anyway one can breed two open working dogs and have puppies in that litter that just won't stack up as a good working dog. Suppose a top handler said to you that he can tell just by looking that his dogs don't have hip dysplasia, and anyway one can breed two dogs with Excellent OFA ratings and still have dysplastic puppies in that litter. He'd be making the same argument for breeding without testing for CHD that you're making for breeding without testing for working ability, wouldn't he? What do you think of that argument?

 

Anyway, I have tried to listen to your arguments and give them serious consideration, even though I've heard them many times before. I hope you have given some consideration to our arguments, and maybe even will take time to think over those that may be new to you. That's really all we can hope for.

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While I can see your point I must also say that to define a true border collie as ONLY one that works the the open usbcha level is ignorant.

Nobody here has ever said that. People have made the comment that dogs bred for something other than working ability (including instinct, physical ability, and temperment) become another sort of dog over the generations.

 

I dont believe that AKC is detrimental to the development of this breed, they have done some great things and they have done some not so great things.

We'll really have to agree to disagree on this one. The show ring has been demonstrated to have negative effects on more than just the Border Collie.

 

I believe the same is true for some of those that only breed open working dogs, health issues are large concern and many top handlers do not do health testing, this is a problem and talk about ruining a breed.

Just because many top handlers choose to prove their dogs' all-around abilities and physical/health strengths through the work rather than through extensive testing just means that they are following time-tested tradition. And, I guess I'd have to ask, how do you know that many "top handlers" don't do testing? Many fine handlers do test, within reason.

 

Just because I choose to train and trial in AKC doesnt make my dogs any less than a true border collie. Yes I am proud of a started ASCA title, I am new to herding and although it may not be a large accomplishment for a border collie it is a large accomplishment for me. Everyone starts somewhere and Im sure that the first time you had a good run at the prenovice level you were over the moon. I have every right to show every accomplishment myself and my dogs achieve, regardless how irrelevant you think it may be.

What you do with your dogs doesn't change them. I'm pleased when my dogs can accomplish a certain level of work, too. You are "new to herding" and this may not be "a large accomplishment", so how is it sufficient to determine that this dog is worth producing pups at this point in time?

 

I choose to show in conformation because I personally enjoy it, and to be honest, my dogs do as well. They are not overdone, they dont have tree trunks for legs and their hair doesnt weigh them down, but structurally they are correct and I have no problem broadcasting that. And after that show they can turn around and work whatever stock you throw at them whether it be ducks, sheep or cattle. It makes no difference to me who agrees or who disagrees. If it makes you feel better to degrade someone else and their breeding program then by all means, have at it, I know my dogs and I wholeheartedly believe in what I am producing. Trialing in AKC makes me happy, it makes my dogs happy and I will continue to support them and breed what I personally feel is a true border collie.

There are lots of things I might enjoy or make me happy, but if they are not the right things to do, maybe I need to do something different, something truly productive. Supporting the judging of dogs, particularly dogs with a purpose, by appearance is counterproductive. Breed "standards" are largely arbitrary, but you are supporting their use by participating in conformation showing.

 

I am opting out of this discussion, we all hold very strong opinions and beliefs and to be honest, neither side will compromise those. Consequently we are wasting our time and breath discussing the issue. Thank you for the input, I hope Im not coming across as rude, hopefully we will meet at a nearby trial in the future :rolleyes: If there is a USBCHA trial coming up in the future in Arizona feel free to stop by and watch an open handler, Molly Wisecarver, that trains and trials in both AKC and USBCHA with the same dogs, you might just be surprised at how "true" her border collies are.

She's not the only one but I'll tell you this - handlers that are successful in both USBCHA and AKC are almost invariably running dogs that are ABCA or ISDS (or CBCA) lineage, not AKC lineage. They are dual-registered which allows the pursuit of titles, and opens a whole new market for pups.

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Yes I am proud of a started ASCA title, I am new to herding and although it may not be a large accomplishment for a border collie it is a large accomplishment for me. Everyone starts somewhere and Im sure that the first time you had a good run at the prenovice level you were over the moon.

 

The problem here being that the conclusion drawn by others who got an ASCA title wasn't "I should breed my dogs!".

 

Just saying....

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