Are having your "own" sheep really better?

[MagRam]

And at this point I would just add that "qualifying" for Finals is a whole 'nother ball game than being "competitive" at Finals,

A

 

I understand your point Anna but the people I was referring to - while probably not a threat to win the whole thing - were certainly competitve for moving out of the early rounds in Open. And others (some the same people) managed to get their nursery dogs into the top 10 at the Final Round.

 

Back to the original discussion - sometimes I think having your own sheep could actually be a disadvantage.

 

Imagine the following - not purely hypothetical as I think it happens reasonably often - scenario:

 

(1) Fairly Novice or inexperienced handler (2) with small field or arena (3) handful of sheep (maybe 10 or less that get very dogged) (4) where sheep learn all the heavy draws and don't behave well.

 

There is a saying I borrowed from Harvey Penick - a famous golf instructor - which seems to apply sometimes. "Practice does not make perfect. Practice makes permanent. Only perfect practice makes permanent."

 

I know in my own case I tried basically going it alone for a while using a friends sheep. As much as anything it was an economic decision - sheep in exchange for favors - and an overconfidence on my part. The combination of my own lack of knowledge and a false belief I kinda sorta knew what I was doing caused me to stagnate and possibly go backward. When I realized I needed regular help and started getting it from a very qualified big hat (Jennifer Ewers) my handling improved greatly. Adding a better dog to the mix was also a huge game changer.

 

However, I can easily see how an inexperienced handler having their own sheep could actually be a disadvantage by instilling a false sense of confidence and by making bad habits permanent from repetition. Especially if having your own sheep somehow convinces the inexperienced handler to not seek out qualified training as much. The last two years working with Jennifer have convinced me there is no substitue for an ongoing relationship with a highly qualified trainer. While clinics and occasional lessons are good there is no way any clinician or occasional trainer can get the same read on you and your dog that a really good trainer with a regular opportunity to observe you and your dog to assist. Clinics can be good to get a different perspective but they are no substitute for regular training.

 

In my own situation I would likely do far more damage working on my own if I had a small home flock.

[stockdogranch]

Pat, you bring up an excellent point! So, how's this for the ideal scenario: student works with knowledgeable mentor regularly; when mentor thinks handler is ready (and student has the wherewithal to have some stock), student gets (appropriate) stock, but student still seeks advise on a regular basis from mentor to make sure all goes well?

A

[MagRam]

Pat, you bring up an excellent point! So, how's this for the ideal scenario: student works with knowledgeable mentor regularly; when mentor thinks handler is ready (and student has the wherewithal to have some stock), student gets (appropriate) stock, but student still seeks advise on a regular basis from mentor to make sure all goes well?

A

 

I think that is ideal but the point about still seeking regular advise from mentor is key for most (especially me). Also student needs to rotate stock often enough so the don't get too dogged and still make sure to get out to different places and different stock.

[appyridr]

Given that time and money are limited--it almost sees like it might be quite advantageous to spend the money it would cost to have your own operation on really traveling around and buying sheep time at other folks' operations. That maximizes the opportunity to work different kinds of sheep on different fields in a way that working your "own" sheep really doesn't.

Is that nutty? Are there people who do well in Open (by well, I'll say something like "qualify for the National Finals") without having their own sheep?

 

Hi Robin,

As someone who does not own sheep, I'll offer my $.02 worth: I compete in Open with 1 dog & 2 in P/N (in the middle of the pack because I am a crappy handler for the most part) so I am in no way a 'successful' handler by your standard. :-) However we often score higher than handlers who DO OWN sheep. And I know of a number of other Open handlers here in the PNW who also do not have sheep....they sometimes place and beat the big hats, other times not.

First off, IMO everything depends on the kind of access to sheep you have, whether your own or elsewhere. If you own a dozen dogged sheep on 5 acres, you probably won't ever qualify for Nationals. However even if you own 10 times that many on 20 acres, you may still not qualify for Nationals.

Sept. is the perfect time to look at the finals numbers: there are 150 dogs going to Nationals in a couple weeks. The cut-off looks like it was about 20 points which would have been about the 250th ranked dog that earned points(if my calculations are correct). Regional/geographical/financial reasons determine why many of the 'top' 150 dogs do not go. However there are another 250+ dogs that earned points in Open trials in 2010, but not enough to qualify even they could/would go. I would guess that the majority of them own their own sheep. As Donald pointed out, there is SO much good work that dogs can only learn when doing practical chores day in day out, year round on a 'commercial' flock. However, even when you have that, it does not mean that you can qualify for Nationals. So I am not sure that 'qualifying for Nationals' needs to be your line in the sand. It is and should be our goal, but there are so many factors involved that I think you can set the bar a little lower for a lot of people. Especially if time&money are a factor. I will repeat that because it is primary; if time&money are a factor, you will likely not achieve a lot of success whether you own your own sheep or not.

If you do not have your own sheep you need; opportunity to work in big spaces weekly and can get by with small fields 2-3 times a week. You need a mentor; a successful Open handler who will work with you and watch/critique your runs at trials, you will need to spend all of your extra money on taking lessons at least once a month and clinics 4 times a year or more if you can. And this is once you get to the P/N level. You would have also sent your young dog out to a prof.trainer(your mentor) to get the basic start for a month or two. IMO it is a rare dog and beginner handler who can train up a youngster without owning their own sheep for daily exposure to all kinds of work. Plus you need to have a well bred good dog to start out with. Luckily there are lots out there.

It takes dedication & hard work no matter what the situation to get to Open, let alone qualify for Nationals. IF you want it bad enough AND have the right kind of places to go to work your dogs WITH the right kind of help/instruction, and the time/money to do all of that, then I believe it can be done. It might take a little longer but you can get a dog trained up to run Open and place in the money on occasion and at the least, you will not look out of place. For me, I love the journey; the training, the exposure to as much as I can get for my 'little city dogs' and to see how far they have come despite all the limitations. To know that a couple of them would make useful farm dogs for just about anyone in any circumstance. They continually take my breath away and amaze me at what they do accomplish on trial fields that are 10X bigger & more challenging than what we train on.

cheers Lani

Langley BC

[MagRam]

Given that time and money are limited--it almost sees like it might be quite advantageous to spend the money it would cost to have your own operation on really traveling around and buying sheep time at other folks' operations. That maximizes the opportunity to work different kinds of sheep on different fields in a way that working your "own" sheep really doesn't.

Is that nutty? Are there people who do well in Open (by well, I'll say something like "qualify for the National Finals") without having their own sheep?

 

Hi Robin,

As someone who does not own sheep, I'll offer my $.02 worth: I compete in Open with 1 dog & 2 in P/N (in the middle of the pack because I am a crappy handler for the most part) so I am in no way a 'successful' handler by your standard. :-) However we often score higher than handlers who DO OWN sheep. And I know of a number of other Open handlers here in the PNW who also do not have sheep....they sometimes place and beat the big hats, other times not.

First off, IMO everything depends on the kind of access to sheep you have, whether your own or elsewhere. If you own a dozen dogged sheep on 5 acres, you probably won't ever qualify for Nationals. However even if you own 10 times that many on 20 acres, you may still not qualify for Nationals.

Sept. is the perfect time to look at the finals numbers: there are 150 dogs going to Nationals in a couple weeks. The cut-off looks like it was about 20 points which would have been about the 250th ranked dog that earned points(if my calculations are correct). Regional/geographical/financial reasons determine why many of the 'top' 150 dogs do not go. However there are another 250+ dogs that earned points in Open trials in 2010, but not enough to qualify even they could/would go. I would guess that the majority of them own their own sheep. As Donald pointed out, there is SO much good work that dogs can only learn when doing practical chores day in day out, year round on a 'commercial' flock. However, even when you have that, it does not mean that you can qualify for Nationals. So I am not sure that 'qualifying for Nationals' needs to be your line in the sand. It is and should be our goal, but there are so many factors involved that I think you can set the bar a little lower for a lot of people. Especially if time&money are a factor. I will repeat that because it is primary; if time&money are a factor, you will likely not achieve a lot of success whether you own your own sheep or not.

If you do not have your own sheep you need; opportunity to work in big spaces weekly and can get by with small fields 2-3 times a week. You need a mentor; a successful Open handler who will work with you and watch/critique your runs at trials, you will need to spend all of your extra money on taking lessons at least once a month and clinics 4 times a year or more if you can. And this is once you get to the P/N level. You would have also sent your young dog out to a prof.trainer(your mentor) to get the basic start for a month or two. IMO it is a rare dog and beginner handler who can train up a youngster without owning their own sheep for daily exposure to all kinds of work. Plus you need to have a well bred good dog to start out with. Luckily there are lots out there.

It takes dedication & hard work no matter what the situation to get to Open, let alone qualify for Nationals. IF you want it bad enough AND have the right kind of places to go to work your dogs WITH the right kind of help/instruction, and the time/money to do all of that, then I believe it can be done. It might take a little longer but you can get a dog trained up to run Open and place in the money on occasion and at the least, you will not look out of place. For me, I love the journey; the training, the exposure to as much as I can get for my 'little city dogs' and to see how far they have come despite all the limitations. To know that a couple of them would make useful farm dogs for just about anyone in any circumstance. They continually take my breath away and amaze me at what they do accomplish on trial fields that are 10X bigger & more challenging than what we train on.

cheers Lani

Langley BC

 

 

Lani -

 

I think you nailed it.

 

In my own situation I go to a recognized "big hat" weekly for training. We have a little group lesson every week and the other dog/handler teams are generally well ahead of me. In fact our little lesson group had at least 4 dogs run in the 2009 Open Nationals (2 were the instructors and 2 students each had 1). We had three dogs from our little group make it to the top 15 of the 2009 Nursery Nationals (1 the instructor and 2 student dogs). Of the student dogs only 1 of the students has her own sheep (one of the Nursery dogs). This year only one Nursery dog from our group is going to Nationals but that is mainly due to the fact that it is East Coast and 4 or 5 Open qualified dogs/handler decidd not to make the trip (well - our instructor is not competing because she is judging but mostly the students decided not to make the trip).

 

Point is that every weekend is a little bit like attending a clinic - we learnnot only from working our own dogs but also from watching the other handler/dog teams in the class. And it is generally at a pretty high level.

 

But in a lot of ways it beats a clinic because when we go back the following week (and the week after and so on) our instructor (clinician) already has a very good handle on both our handling skills and the dog's skills and our respective shortcomings. So depending on who you are training with I think the regular lessons can be more valuable than what I call clinic chasing. There are a few clinicians I would attend primarily for a different perspective but I am already getting the same or better quality training where I am.

 

I am currently trialing at the Pro Novice level and chomping at the bit to move up. But we are not quite ready due to consistency issues. Our instructor wants us to be ready when we do move up so that we can at least be somewhat competitive. Even though it is frustrating, she is right. So for now we keep working on things and hopefully inching closer bit by bit to that first Open run.

[Cynthia P]

I wanted to add that sometimes having your own sheep is a detriment.

 

We have about 250 ewes and about 400 lambs; We rotationally graze and move grazes every day. WE almost never practice on a small group and don't have the time to tune up for bigger trials. At any given time we have 3 groups of sheep

 

Plus getting farm sitters is difficult so we miss many trials. Would we get points, maybe, but you can't when you can't leave the farm.

 

There are certainly days we'd like to cut back to 30...and head out to other trials.

 

anyone want to farm sit???

 

Cynthia

[Sue R]

Julie P is a very good example of "it's not what you have, but what you do with what you have that makes the difference". She put in the time, miles, and effort to learn, train, and progress long before she could consider having livestock of her own. Having stock is no guarantee of success and not having stock is no guarantee of lack of progress.

 

Each person, each dog, each situation is unique - it's what you do with your circumstances and the situation you create, that makes the difference. But, boy-oh-boy, do I wish my circumstances would allow me to have sheep! But I just have to make the best of what I do have in terms of resources and opportunities.

 

Best wishes to all out there, with stock or without, who are doing the best they can with the resources available - enjoy the journey!

[stockdogranch]

...boy-oh-boy, do I wish my circumstances would allow me to have sheep!

Meh--you have something MUCH better--CATTLE!!!

A

[Sue R]

Okay, so I should have said, "In addition to these wonderful, marvelous, supremely edible cattle!"

[Pippin's person]

Thanks for all the new comments--always interesting to read. I think it's particularly interesting to think about "success"--I picked "handlers who qualified for nationals" as a somewhat arbitrary mark rather than a "line in the sand." Everyone's idea of success is different of course and that's part of what makes doing this so enriching and engaging. I also agree that it's important to remember that everyone does the best they can with what they have--my question was mostly a philosophical one, I suppose.

 

[ETA: snipped some irrelevant comments]

 

As much as I love having lessons and find lessons an invaluable learning tool (and one that I wouldn't give up even if I had my own sheep), I've also been finding lately that I feel a little like I'm always in class without really having a chance to do the homework, and to me, that seems like one of the real benefits of having some sheep of my own. It's hard to just muddle through and figure something out when there is someone there telling you what to do--or maybe I should say, it's easy to let someone tell you what to do if they are standing there watching and you are floundering.

 

Which, I suppose also provides an answer to my own question. Seems like the ideal situation is like Anna described, but it's probably a hard ideal to meet.

[topnotchdog]

Thank you so much for this encouraging post! Thank you Sue R for your thoughts.

 

Barbara

 

Best wishes to all out there, with stock or without, who are doing the best they can with the resources available - enjoy the journey!

[juliepoudrier]

I think what Sue was referring to with me was the fact that even though I didn't have my own sheep, I was at my trainers working my dogs usually 4-5 days a week. Of course back then gas was "high" at somewhere between $1 and $1.50 per gallon. I would not be able to drive the 2.5-hr round trip now like I did then, simply because the cost of gas has gotten so high. And of course not all trainers will open up their places to a student the way my trainer did. I also helped her and other sheep-owning friends with sheep care, and I farm sat for free in exchange for being able to work my dogs (the farm owner has to know and trust you to make this work).

 

I was also raised around livestock (not sheep, but horses and dairy goats and poultry) so the stock-reading curve wasn't so dramatic for me.

 

As much as I love having lessons and find lessons an invaluable learning tool (and one that I wouldn't give up even if I had my own sheep), I've also been finding lately that I feel a little like I'm always in class without really having a chance to do the homework, and to me, that seems like one of the real benefits of having some sheep of my own.

 

I think the main question a person thinking about getting sheep should ask is: "Do I like sheep, and would I want to raise them even if the dogs weren't a factor?"

 

If I could never trial again, I would still raise sheep, because I've always wanted to participate in rare breed conservation and because I like having livestock, and I really like sheep. But I know people who keep sheep strictly as training tools and they don't like sheep and their sheep get short shrift. That bothers me.

 

Other things you need to consider:

1. Can I afford sheep? And do I have the resources (mentors, etc.) to help me learn their proper care?

2. Can I sell sheep on? Keeping the same old sheep year after year isn't going to help your training program.

3. Do I have the space and time for sheep? They aren't super high maintenance, but they do require time for care and they require space for living.

4. Are there other like-minded individuals nearby? Would a co-op be the answer?

 

And so on....

 

As Cynthia noted, sometimes the sheep themselves can make doing other things (leaving the farm) difficult, but it's also true that the larger numbers like she has can provide invaluable experience for your working dogs. I wish I could have more sheep, but given my so-called pastures can support 40-50 under the best conditions, it's not likely to happen unless I find another place to live. I think Bill Fosher said that you need to keep at least 200 breeding ewes if you plan to make money off your sheep. So Cynthia has enough sheep to make money, but too many sheep to easily leave the farm. A catch-22.

 

The main benefit for me of having my own sheep is the *practical* work situations I can find for my dogs (youngsters, mainly). I've found that pushing hungry sheep off feed bunks is a great way to help a young dog build confidence driving. In away-from-home training sessions, you don't often encounter situations (which can be turned into training/learning situations) like a ram standing off your dog, or protective ewes with lambs, or having your dog help you sort sheep (at a gate or in the open field). So, yes, there are great reasons to keep sheep, so if you want sheep and can afford them and you like them so that you will do right by them, go ahead and get them.

 

The caveat is that, as others have mentioned, if you're a novice and don't have regular mentoring, it will be relatively easy to allow bad habits to develop in your dogs and in your handling. And there is no substitue for getting (especially) your young dogs out to different places to work on different stock. I think one of the reasons Twist and I did so well so quickly is that I took her and worked her *everywhere.* We never had the "stress because it's a trial" issues because trials were pretty much just like going somewhere else and working stock. And I didn't have sheep of my own when I started out with Twist, so all of our experience was on other people's stock. So even if you have your own stock, you should still make a concerted effort to get your dogs out and about to a variety of stock and properties.

 

And keep going to a trainer and clinics so that you have another set of eyes looking at you and your dogs to point out where you're going wrong.

 

Let us know what you get!

 

J.

[Donald McCaig]

Dear Novice Shepherds,

 

One more caveat: "Sheep are born just looking for a place to lie down and die."

 

Sheep won't suit couch potato owners. They are low capital but skill and attention intensive animals. You MUST have a sheep mentor, a good sheep book (I recommend Parker) and a good annual schedule (Pipestone used to publish one - dunno if they still do.) You should buy your sheep from a single flock , not one here and one there and never from the livestock market. For the first three or four years, go by the book, don't think for yourself. Walk among your ewes every other day, even in summer months when they're just grazing .

 

Lambing is difficult, high-stress, scarey and remarkably beautiful.

 

Donald McCaig

[Mark Billadeau]

Like dogs, choose your sheep breed wisely. Each has their own pros and cons; make sure these best fit your individual circumstances.

[Smalahundur]

I think I went the "classical" route; I got into border collies because I have sheep, not the other way round. This is also the norm for the people (farmers) surrounding me.

So to me it was a bit strange to read about people who are into dogs, and then getting sheep for especially for dogtraining, buying criteria being how well certain sheep are suited for a certain dog. Kinda topsy turvy seen from my neck of the woods.

By the way this is in no way meant negative, I have great respect for the accomplishments of trialing handlers, no matter if (and why) they own sheep . And of course I dream of trialing some day too, though my first aim is "usefull farmhand".

[juliepoudrier]

Smalahundur,

In the beginning most of the folks trialing in this country were stockpeople first as well. Over time, the demographics have shifted and now I'd say a significant number of trialers got sheep after they got the dog. What I see as the bright side of that is that it has probably revived in a small way, sheep farming in America, and along with the Slow Food movement has created a niche in which people who may have gotten the sheep for the dog(s) can also provide a product to the local community. So it's something of a win-win, I think.

 

J.