Need a lot of training in a short time

[Dixie_Girl]

I had an experienced trainer give me advice on teaching a dog to walk on loose lead. I used it with Jackson, and it was amazing how quick he learned it. I have used it on every dog since and so far, it works. He told me to take my training stick, (but you can use an old fishing pole, they are about the same) and hold it in the opposite hand I held the lead. Start in the back yard, start with a short lead. Watch the dog as you walk, and when the dog's nose passes your leg, smack the ground with the end of the stick, saying heel. Continue, wash, rinse, repeat. After he is walking good, give him more lead, still keeping him even with your leg. Also, after he is doing good with the short lead, make lots of right and left turns and stops. You will eventually be able to quit using the stick and just saying heel. He'll always wonder where you have the stick hidden and keep his mind on what y'all are doing. Good luck.

[Donald McCaig]

Dear Doggers,

 

Ms. Daisy Duke writes (in part): "FWIW, I did not say punishment to imply you are beating the dog, but the way I look at it is, there is reward and punishment. One is positive and one is negative. A correction is negative, therefore punishment."

 

Language is a commons - private meanings, even private meanings enjoyed by a subset of users - either conform to general usage or are argumentative.

 

Deliberate linguistic confusions may be successful: we have a "Defense Department" no longer a "War Department", may be confusing "Is a laptop running Linux a PC?" or may be unsuccessful like the usage Ms. Duke suggests.

 

"Correction" and "Punishment" are charged words but very few believe that The Virginia Department of Corrections "corrects".

 

Watson/Skinnerian theorists have had one huge language success: they fixed "Behaviors" as how we discuss what animals do. Although "Behavior" has broadened considerably from Watson/Skinner's atomism, it is a misleading, constricting term.

 

They have failed, however, to convince the commons that "correction" is "punishment". That usage is a private meaning and we ordinary language users can safely ignore it.

 

Donald McCaig

[Dixie_Girl]

Skip has a natural tendency toward food guarding. When all the dogs are getting high value treats, he will, on occasion, raise a lip. This is met with me saying, Ahhh Ahhh. That is a correction. If he actually snaps or lunges at another dog, he is banished to the bedroom with door shut, i.e., doggy jail. That is punishment. I know there are a lot of "positive only" trainers out there, but I'm still not sure how a dog learns anything if there are not consequences and rewards. If a dog is being taught to sit for example, and you clicker train, from what I understand, the person waits for the dog to sit on its own, then click, say sit, reward. The dog eventually learns to sit. Because the dog learns that the word, then the action, results in a treat. If the dog doesn't sit, he gets no treat. That is punishment, I don't care what world you live in. Punishment, just like corrections, have various levels. Punishment is just another word for consequence. Correction is just another word for reminder.

[ejano]

Robin was a world class puller. Some dogs just are. I tried all most above mentioned methods in working with Robin's heeling. For a time I used an Easy Walk harness which is very effective and your wife might appreciate it and it can be a good tool in teaching a puller to heel. Be sure it's a good fit.

 

The one method not yet mentioned was the one the finally worked and the one that really makes the most sense. If you have a fenced in area to work, remove the leash because they are fighting the leash, not you and teach them to stay by your side without the lead. Ideally, of course, this would start when they are a puppy but you can make real progress when they're older in a very short time. I didn't conquer heeling until Robin was about Hestia's age or a little older -- I know it took most of the summer and to be perfectly honest, he still needs reminding, although we don't play tug of war anymore, he just takes all the leash he can get.

 

Robin liked to chase the ball so I taught him that if he wanted to play ball, he had to line up in heel position by my side before I would kick it for him and gave it a command. Because it was a game, and not work -- and the motivator was really high (he got to chase the ball), he learned in about ten minutes to "heel". Once he learned the word and the position, it transferred to the leash, though it did take some time. Now, when he gets ahead of me, I stop, the lightbulb pops on in his head and he backs into position.

 

Liz

 

 

More great suggestions!

The potty training is going apace...she hasn't had an accident in about a week and asks to go outside, but her leash manners are still atrocious...sometimes. Part of the trouble of training a smart dog is that they can ascertain what they can get away with with different people. I'm of the "sit on them" school when it comes to training to walk on lead. I keep a very short lead and do a ton of little corrections as the walk progresses. Basically, I never LET her get out of line. There are some big corrections (we have a gazillion rabbits here) but usually it's just little tugs and a lot of praise when she gets it right. When my daughter or wife walk her, they tend to let her have too much of her own head and then do major corrections. My wife calls it "Hestirobics" and always comes back from their walks tired, sweaty and vowing to never do it again.

As for counter surfing, it's kind of hard to train for if she only does it episodically. I've only caught her twice and she was quite contrite when I used "the voice".

The jumping up to greet is also hard to train when your friends either conveniently forget to scold her or flat out ignore our wishes . She knows not to do it with us....

Otherwise, Hesti is a very sweet, loving, smart dog with zero major behavior issues. We'd keep her if we had room for Cerb, her and another foster.

[juliepoudrier]

One thing that hasn't really been stressed is consistency, especially if you want training to go quickly. If your wife and daughter are allowing behaviors on leash that you don't allow (and vice versa), then you've all inadvertently introduced an element of randomness that will prolong (at best) or hopelessly confuse (at worst) Hesti's training. It may be that the only thing Hesti learns about leash walking is that when a man is on the other end of the leash she should behave, but when it's a woman then pulling all over the place is acceptable.

 

I would suggest that either you alone do all the training or that all three of you make a concerted effort to train the exact same way so that Hesti learns that pulling is never acceptable. If you are all taking the same approach to her training, and doing so consistently, she will learn much faster than if you're all allowing (and disallowing) different things.

 

JMO.

 

J.

[havenjm]

If you want a dog to pull, put it on a short leash.

 

Dog's are oppositional when it comes to pressure on their bodies. Meaning that they will, on instinct, move towards pressure. Putting on a short leash, where it's almost impossible to avoid said pressure, invokes that oppositional response: pulling. Not to mention that there's no quicker way to loose your patience than to give 200 corrections/minute.

 

Instead of trying to train a dog not to pull. Teach the dog that it never gets a correction if it's walking in a close enough proximity to you.

 

I usually start with a 20 foot lead, and just begin walking. If the dog doesn't follow, he gets a correction when I get 20 feet away. If the dog walks/runs in front of me, I turn and walk the other way; dog gets a correction at 20 feet.

 

I never say a word, positive or negative, during this. Nor do I make eye contact or really pay any attention to the dog other than to know where it is. The onus is entirely on the dog to pay attention to me. It usually takes 5-10 minutes for the dog to start paying attention to where I am and be actively trying to stay within the perimeter

 

After that, you gradually decrease the length of the lead and before long you're walking with a slack 4' lead.

[Lewis Moon]

If you want a dog to pull, put it on a short leash.

 

Dog's are oppositional when it comes to pressure on their bodies. Meaning that they will, on instinct, move towards pressure. Putting on a short leash, where it's almost impossible to avoid said pressure, invokes that oppositional response: pulling. Not to mention that there's no quicker way to loose your patience than to give 200 corrections/minute.

 

Instead of trying to train a dog not to pull. Teach the dog that it never gets a correction if it's walking in a close enough proximity to you.

 

I usually start with a 20 foot lead, and just begin walking. If the dog doesn't follow, he gets a correction when I get 20 feet away. If the dog walks/runs in front of me, I turn and walk the other way; dog gets a correction at 20 feet.

 

I never say a word, positive or negative, during this. Nor do I make eye contact or really pay any attention to the dog other than to know where it is. The onus is entirely on the dog to pay attention to me. It usually takes 5-10 minutes for the dog to start paying attention to where I am and be actively trying to stay within the perimeter

 

After that, you gradually decrease the length of the lead and before long you're walking with a slack 4' lead.

 

 

Cerb learned on a short leash and does very well. At ten months he walks at heel without pulling, even while off lead.

Why do I get the impression some here think when I say "short leash" I'm hoisting Hesti up to where she's walking on her back legs? If I only had six inches of leash between my hand and her collar there would still be slack if she wasn't pulling. I keep the leash just long enough that if she is walking at heel there is no tension, If she moves out of the "box" she gets a correction. If she stays in she gets my undying gratitude and a "good girl!" I'm simply defining the "box" with the leash.

...and I am very consistent, to the point of being a bit of a bore. I think the difference between myself and my wife is that I'm 6'5", 220lbs and sound like a drill sargent (or so my wife says). My wife is 5'2". Hesti really seems to defer to me.

[juliepoudrier]

...and I am very consistent, to the point of being a bit of a bore. I think the difference between myself and my wife is that I'm 6'5", 220lbs and sound like a drill sargent (or so my wife says). My wife is 5'2". Hesti really seems to defer to me.

My point wasn't that *you* aren't consistent, but that according to your description, there is no consistency across your, your wife's, and your daughter's handling/training of Hesti (that is, Hesti is getting away with stuff with them that she's not getting away with when you handle her, therefore lack of consistency). I'm short and soft-spoken too, but that's not an excuse to allow a dog to pull like a freight train. I was just trying to point out that if Hesti gets away with things with your wife and daughter that she doesn't get away with when you're working with her, then you're all defeating your goal of getting her trained quickly and making her as adoptable as possible. Hesti defers to you because you *require* her compliance. I am about the same height as your wife, but that doesn't mean a dog can't respect my wishes when it comes to walking politely on a leash. And she's going to need to be respectful of people your wife's size too, if she is to be readily adoptable. If your methods of teaching Hesti how to walk politely on a leash don't work for your wife, then she needs to come up with a method that does work, so that Hesti understands that walking on a leash--no matter who is on the other end--requires polite behavior. JMO.

 

J.

[Ancarrow]

I have to disagree on the short lead issue.

I just talked to my wife (the daughter of a kennel owner who showed dogs all her youth) and she is just about fed up with Hesti lunging and and darting. At ~45lbs she's got some momentum when she hits the end of a leash. I myself have seen her hit the end of the leash and do a complete flip...repeatedly. Thus the short lead. Last night after she did her gymnastic routine I kept her on a short lead and when she wasn't distracted by the gazillion bunnies and quail we have running around, she actually walked with a loose lead for several miles. She's learning...but hopefully before my spouse needs rotater cuff surgery. When she walks well with me it's because I sit on her and give her feedback all the time, both poaitive and negative.

A short lead does not in any way preclude a dog from making and learning from mistakes. In fact they get more (and more timely) feedback, rather than the "look at me I'm free...." jerk (sound of dog strangling) of a long lead.

 

As for the time issue; Yes, I know good training takes time and I am prioratizing behaviors that I would consider the minimum in a pet. She was completely raw when she came to us a week and a half ago and now she will sit, down, go to bed (crate) and has not had an accident in about six days. She's a fast learner for the most part but the walking on lead and listening to commands outdoors are not progressing well.

 

WHAT WAS I DOING?

???I just decided to read this post from the beginning and noticed I was showing up in the post. Not sure how I managed to do that back on 9/2, but I definitely had no comment and still don't. Sorry. I am enjoying listening and learning though.

[Lou Castle]

The problem is that when we go outside the house/back yard, she is no longer motivated to train, even by really yummy treats. You have to actively put food in her mouth for her to notice it's there.

 

This is not unusual. Many kinds of training work very well as long as there are no distractions. But when those crop up, the training goes out the window. I think that you need something that's effective and allows communication all the time, not just in a vacuum.

 

I agree with Mr. McCaig that an Ecollar is "Probably the quickest and most reliable way to train a pet dog for ordinary obedience ..." But I disagree that one needs to be a "... a highly skilled professional trainer with a couple years ecollar experience." Many people who have never trained a dog or used an Ecollar have used my methods and trained their dogs to their complete satisfaction.

 

I don't know how old this dog is but if she's at least six months and the other suggestions given here don't give good results in a timely manner, than you might want to take a look at MY SITE.

[njnovice]

This is not unusual. Many kinds of training work very well as long as there are no distractions. But when those crop up, the training goes out the window. I think that you need something that's effective and allows communication all the time, not just in a vacuum.

 

I agree with Mr. McCaig that an Ecollar is "Probably the quickest and most reliable way to train a pet dog for ordinary obedience ..." But I disagree that one needs to be a "... a highly skilled professional trainer with a couple years ecollar experience." Many people who have never trained a dog or used an Ecollar have used my methods and trained their dogs to their complete satisfaction.

 

I don't know how old this dog is but if she's at least six months and the other suggestions given here don't give good results in a timely manner, than you might want to take a look at MY SITE.

 

In all honesty, I do not think an Ecollar would be the best method for the average Border Collie. I think a lot of them would shut down with an Ecollar correction.

 

There's a big difference between the temperament of a working GSD/Malinois and a Border Collie. And, I'm not a click & treat person in the slightest. I use prong collars, myself...but they wouldn't be appropriate for the softer temperament of a lot of Border Collies.

 

Also, I think you're just here to advertise your business, personally.

[PSmitty]

Yeah, I clicked the "report" button, because I didn't think that kind of blatant advertising was too cool here, but I don't know if the "report" button works.

[Lou Castle]

In all honesty, I do not think an Ecollar would be the best method for the average Border Collie. [Emphasis Added]

 

Oddly I don't recall saying that an "Ecollar would be the best method ..." I DID say that if the suggestions given by others in the thread did not give good results in a timely manner that it's something to consider.

 

I think a lot of them would shut down with an Ecollar correction.

 

Ever seen a dog of any breed trained with my methods? I've worked with dozens of BC's and not one of them has ever "shut down." Those were dogs brought to me after other methods, including suggestions such as those made here, had failed. I'll suggest that your comments have nothing to do with my methods and are based either on hearsay or having seen other methods in use.

 

There's a big difference between the temperament of a working GSD/Malinois and a Border Collie. And, I'm not a click & treat person in the slightest. I use prong collars, myself...but they wouldn't be appropriate for the softer temperament of a lot of Border Collies.

 

Ecollars, used as I do, are very appropriate for soft dogs of any breed. Softness, hardness, fearful, handler sensitivity are not issues because modern versions of the tools can be adjusted so low that the animal can just barely perceive the stim. All animals, regardless of species or temperament respond to the rules of learning theory. Reinforce what you want repeated; punish what you don't want repeated. (The terms are used on the Operant Conditioning sense of the words).

 

Also, I think you're just here to advertise your business, personally.

 

My website, which gives full "how to" information to train a dog with an Ecollar, is free. Nothing for sale, nothing to buy. I sell Ecollars and have a very few private clients but it's not obvious from the website and there's no obligation to buy anything from me to use the protocols.

 

Yeah, I clicked the "report" button, because I didn't think that kind of blatant advertising was too cool here, but I don't know if the "report" button works.

 

You think my post was "blatant advertising?" LOL You might want to look up the definition of "blatant!" Didja look at the website or just make this determination from your read of my post? Never has any forum or list moderator determined that I'm doing anything but giving advice with my posts.

[Maralynn]

This is not unusual. Many kinds of training work very well as long as there are no distractions. But when those crop up, the training goes out the window. I think that you need something that's effective and allows communication all the time, not just in a vacuum.

 

I agree with Mr. McCaig that an Ecollar is "Probably the quickest and most reliable way to train a pet dog for ordinary obedience ..." But I disagree that one needs to be a "... a highly skilled professional trainer with a couple years ecollar experience." Many people who have never trained a dog or used an Ecollar have used my methods and trained their dogs to their complete satisfaction.

 

I don't know how old this dog is but if she's at least six months and the other suggestions given here don't give good results in a timely manner, than you might want to take a look at MY SITE.

 

Seeing as this thread is over a month old and the dog was adopted out 2 weeks ago I think this advice is a little late

 

But anyway, why not just build up her motivation until see is able to focus? Baby steps will work and the training won't fall by the wayside when done correctly.

 

A person with good timing can make just about any method work. Bad timing and you can screw up just about any method.

 

As to blatent advertising, well it does kind of sound like advertising when a new person responds to a month old thread with a link to their website/training service.

[rushdoggie]

As to blatent advertising, well it does kind of sound like advertising when a new person responds to a month old thread with a link to their website/training service.

 

+1

 

But, hopefully the poster will participate in other threads and erase that perception.

 

Welcome to the Boards.

[Lou Castle]

Seeing as this thread is over a month old and the dog was adopted out 2 weeks ago I think this advice is a little late

 

I saw no post from the OP stating that any of the suggestions given before my post had worked and nothing stating that the dog had been adopted out. Perhaps I missed it. Is it a rule here that one can't reply to a post that's "over a month old?"

 

It seems to me that in the absence of a post from the OP that contains something like "We’re having success!" one can safely assume that nothing significant has changed. I'd prefer to comment on an old post with the full realization that others may find the topic after doing a search than NOT to comment and have someone who is looking for information NOT find it. People come to these forums looking for help and many of them do searches to find advice that may be years old but is still pertinent.

 

I think that making the comment that the post is two months old, a fairly short time in the grand scheme of things, is shortsighted as to how people use these forums. But perhaps it's just me.

 

But anyway, why not just build up her motivation until see is able to focus? Baby steps will work and the training won't fall by the wayside when done correctly.

 

I think the OP has tried this and had it fail. But I wonder why you're giving advice knowing that this thread "is over two months old and that the dog was adopted out 2 weeks ago." Doesn't the complaint regarding the age of the post apply to you too? Or is that just for others?

 

As to blatent advertising, well it does kind of sound like advertising when a new person responds to a month old thread with a link to their website/training service.

 

Perhaps you'd have preferred that I'd posted my 5,500 word protocol on teaching the recall rather than the link to the website?

 

Oh, and I'm not a "new person." I've been a member for several years. I've just have been busy elsewhere. But those forums have slowed down and I'll have more time for this one now.

[Maralynn]

I saw no post from the OP stating that any of the suggestions given before my post had worked and nothing stating that the dog had been adopted out. Perhaps I missed it. Is it a rule here that one can't reply to a post that's "over a month old?"

 

It seems to me that in the absence of a post from the OP that contains something like "We’re having success!" one can safely assume that nothing significant has changed. I'd prefer to comment on an old post with the full realization that others may find the topic after doing a search than NOT to comment and have someone who is looking for information NOT find it. People come to these forums looking for help and many of them do searches to find advice that may be years old but is still pertinent.

 

No rule, but it is generally of considered basic netiquette. But the advice you gave was just to visit your website. If you've got a method that works, why not just post the basic version here?

 

 

I think the OP has tried this and had it fail. But I wonder why you're giving advice knowing that this thread "is over two months old and that the dog was adopted out 2 weeks ago." Doesn't the complaint regarding the age of the post apply to you too? Or is that just for others?

 

Actually I was asking you why the method wouldn't work The background info that could be found in other threads started around the same time this was was that this dog was a foster dog that had come into the family within the past week or so. There is a 2 week evaluation period and then the dog would be available for adoption. They wanted to get as much done in that period. The OP hadn't worked long enough on any one method to have considered it as a failure yet.

 

Perhaps you'd have preferred that I'd posted my 5,500 word protocol on teaching the recall rather than the link to the website?

 

Actually I would be interested in reading that. If you posted a thread on it I'm pretty sure a lot of members would check it out.

[PSmitty]

You think my post was "blatant advertising?" LOL You might want to look up the definition of "blatant!" Didja look at the website or just make this determination from your read of my post? Never has any forum or list moderator determined that I'm doing anything but giving advice with my posts.

 

Ummm, yeah, thanks. I know the definition of blatant, and I stand behind my use of the word.

 

And no, I chose not to look at your website, and didn't really have to. The fact that you agree that an E-collar is "Probably the quickest and most reliable way to train a pet dog for ordinary obedience", told me all I needed to know about your training.

[Lou Castle]

No rule, but it is generally of considered basic netiquette.

 

I don't think that there is such thing as a rule of "basic netiquette." there are some generally accepted guidelines and lots of disagreement about lots of things. Want to start a big debate on an email list, ask which is better top posting, bottom posting or multiquoting.

 

But the advice you gave was just to visit your website.

 

No, it wasn't. My advice was to FIRST try the suggestions made by others and then ONLY if they did not "give good results in a timely manner" to take a look at my site.

 

If you've got a method that works, why not just post the basic version here?

 

Because I've had people try to use the "basic version" and then complain when it did not give good results. Instead I post a link to the entire protocol so people can read and understand it.

 

Actually I was asking you why the method wouldn't work

 

I never said that "the method [that you suggested] wouldn't work." I DID say that I thought that it had been tried and had failed. There are many reasons why this occurs. Sometimes it's that the method isn't suited for the owner. Sometimes the owner can't apply it effectively. Sometimes it's a mechanical problem, sometimes a mental one. Sometimes it's not suited to the dog or to what is being trained.

 

Earlier I wrote,

Perhaps you'd have preferred that I'd posted my 5,500 word protocol on teaching the recall rather than the link to the website?

 

Actually I would be interested in reading that. If you posted a thread on it I'm pretty sure a lot of members would check it out.

 

It would take hours to adapt just one of my many (already written and published) protocols and I don't see the need. If people want to read (for example) how I suggest teaching the recall, all that's necessary is a click on THIS LINK.

 

If clicking on a link is too much trouble, well ...

[Lou Castle]

Ummm, yeah, thanks. I know the definition of blatant, and I stand behind my use of the word.

 

I'll disagree. LOL.

 

And no, I chose not to look at your website

 

Fine by me! But then any criticism you make about my methods or tools is meaningless as it's based on conjecture and assumptions.

 

and didn't really have to.

 

Definitely not! It contains information that I'm quite sure you've never considered. But you're not required to inform yourself.

 

The fact that you agree that an E-collar is "Probably the quickest and most reliable way to train a pet dog for ordinary obedience", told me all I needed to know about your training.

 

Good to see that your mind is open.

[PSmitty]

Settle down there, Lou. Let's not go making assumptions about what I've considered or not, or how open my mind is, or isn't. I also don't recall criticizing you or your tools. I've only commented on what *appears* to be your promoting your business here. I mean, about half of your posts here contain links back to your website, but you've said you're not advertising, so I guess that's that.

[Laurae]

I've just have been busy elsewhere. But those forums have slowed down and I'll have more time for this one now.

 

Awesome

[Jack & Co.]

Oh, and I'm not a "new person." I've been a member for several years. I've just have been busy elsewhere. But those forums have slowed down and I'll have more time for this one now.

 

I went over to check out your forum but I didn't see any topics. What sort of things do you discuss? I see that it's an E Collar forum; how do your break down your topics?

[grenzehund]

Oh, and I'm not a "new person." I've been a member for several years. I've just have been busy elsewhere. But those forums have slowed down and I'll have more time for this one now.

 

Great - we'll look forward to reading something other than advertising your company self-promotion proselytizing about offering information about shock collars. Just like on the other dog forums you visit.

[Lou Castle]

Settle down there, Lou. Let's not go making assumptions about what I've considered or not, or how open my mind is, or isn't.

 

Well we know that you've NOT considered my methods because you've all but refused to go read my articles! And we know based on your comment "The fact that you agree that an E-collar is 'Probably the quickest and most reliable way to train a pet dog for ordinary obedience', told me all I needed to know about your training." [Emphasis Added] that you're mind is pretty much closed on them. Or did you mean something else by those words?

 

I also don't recall criticizing you or your tools. I've only commented on what *appears* to be your promoting your business here.

 

I consider that a rather rude comment about me "promoting [my] business" to be a criticism of me. In fact you told us that you "clicked the 'report' button." and called what you perceived to be "advertising" in my posts to be "blatant." And you reasserted that in a second post. Now your continue your personal attack. I don't mind, it just shows how little you know about how I use an Ecollar. And it shows the length that some who oppose the Ecollar will go to, to try and get people not to use them. Much easier to make the ad hominem attack than to actually read and critique someone's suggestions.

 

I mean, about half of your posts here contain links back to your website

 

Of course they do. I've spent hundreds of hours writing, reviewing and editing my articles so that the average pet owner (whatever that means) can use an Ecollar to train their dogs. It's illogical to think that I would rewrite those articles again for every list/forum that I visit.