New! And questions about other people disciplining dogs

[havenjm]

Yes, I suppose there is a note of sarcasm in my last post, but I think it's an accurate summary of the POV expressed in your post that immediately precedes it, and in the posts of several others.

 

The crux of the issue?

It's an accurate summation if you ignore the crux of the issue. I could care less if YOUR dog is biting YOUR ankles, or peeing on YOUR sandwiches, or steeling YOUR lunch. You will never have to worry about me intervening.

 

When your dog bites MY ankles, pees on MY sandwiches, or tries to steal MY lunch, I am going to intervene however I see fit. It is YOUR job to keep your dog from getting into such a predicament, it is not my job to tolerate it or to adopt your particular method of training.

 

 

To me, the crux of the matter is this. There is no danger involved -- it's a question of manners

It is absolutely a question of manners. But you're suggesting that others should tolerate or adjust themselves around your/your dog's bad manners. If you come to my house and your 16 year old son pees on my carpet and you tell me that you would like for me to thank him for expressing his teen angst, after all there is no danger involved. I'm going to tell you to get bent while I drag your son to your car by his ear and send you both packing.

 

If you ask me to whisper sweet nothings to your dog whilst I'm being chewed on, and wait for you come running with a handful of cheese, you're likely to get a similar response. It is not my responsibility to bear the burden of your son's teen angst or Nippers nipping.

 

It is not a case, for example, where the owner has absentmindedly gone off and left the dog at a trial, and others must deal with the dog's lack of mannerliness as best they can. The owner is present and has made it known to you that s/he does not want the dog to be disciplined in the way you want to discipline it.

It makes no difference whether the owner is present. If the behavior is occurring, the owner has been absent minded enough.

 

It seems to me there are several good ways to deal with this. You can handle it as the owner requests. You can avoid the dog.

Again, I take issue with the idea that the onus should be on me to avoid, or align my behavior with your dog's poor behavior.

 

You can reply that you're sorry, but the way you train involves instant corrections, and since this has become so instinctive with you that you probably cannot avoid giving them, it would be better if the owner kept the dog away from you. Any of these approaches, or any variations thereof, seem far better to me than assuming the owner deserves your contempt and displaying that contempt by ignoring the owner's wishes.

I would certainly let the owner know that when it comes to my body/my dog/my property I will respond how I see fit, and that if they do not wish for me to discipline their dog they should do whatever they must to keep their dog requiring a response.

 

I would rather try to show respect for the owner, and recognize that even though I may favor different methods, consistency in training is generally a good thing for the dog.

Consistency in training is a good thing for the dog if it's effective. If it's consistently ineffective, then it's merely lunacy.

 

You seem Hell bent on playing the respect card, yet it seems rather disrespectful,in my opinion, to allow your dog to bite someone and then tell them how they should respond or feel about it.

And I can't help thinking that unless you are the perfect owner, whose dog or pup could never, ever do something someone else would find objectionable, you would prefer that kind of respect and consideration were shown to you. Especially by someone who might happen to be very agile and powerful, whose kicks a dog could not so easily avoid, and whose ideas of appropriate corrections might be very different from yours.

If I have any doubt whatsoever about a dog's behavior I will either not give the dog any opportunity to act inappropriately or be ready to intervene far more quickly than someone who is merely reacting.

 

That is respectful of both my dogs and the people they come into contact with. If my dog thinks snapping at people (or any other inappropriate behavior) is appropriate, he is not capable of being in that particular situation and I would not subject him, or the people, to it.

[Eileen Stein]

It's an accurate summation if you ignore the crux of the issue. I could care less if YOUR dog is biting YOUR ankles, or peeing on YOUR sandwiches, or steeling YOUR lunch. You will never have to worry about me intervening.

 

When your dog bites MY ankles, pees on MY sandwiches, or tries to steal MY lunch, I am going to intervene however I see fit. It is YOUR job to keep your dog from getting into such a predicament, it is not my job to tolerate it or to adopt your particular method of training.

 

I thought what you're describing as the crux of the issue was implicit in my summary, but I can make it explicit. As I understand it, this would be an accurate statement of your position:

 

If someone else's dog behaves toward me or my property in a way I consider unmannerly, it is my absolute right to correct that dog in any way I see fit. The owner is entitled to no say in the matter -- s/he has forfeited any claim to a say in how his/her dog is corrected by permitting the dog to do something to me or my property that I find objectionable.

 

It's a POV I do disagree with, for reasons I've already stated and see no need to reiterate.

 

I'm often taken aback by the hostility that some dog owners feel the need to express toward other dog owners and their dogs. It seems disproportionate to me, but not to those who are in its grip, I suppose. I guess you really, truly believe that something I've advocated here is analogous to my bringing my 16-year-old son to your house, letting him pee on your carpet, and telling you that you should thank him for expressing his teen angst.

 

"Hell bent on playing the respect card" -- now there's a funny concept. If I advocated more of a live and let live attitude, would I be hell bent on playing the live and let live card? When you claim your right to discipline other people's dogs, are you hell bent on playing the discipline card? A funny concept . . .

 

I get it that your overriding principle, superseding all others, is "Don't mess with ME," but why, if I hold and express a different point of view, am I "playing a card"?

[geonni banner]

The non-dog-owning sector of the populace seems to think that dog-owner and dog-lover are synonymous terms. Alas, they are not. I put myself squarely in the first camp. I have no use for the vast majority of dogs that I encounter. What with poor breeding, poor manners and feckless owners - or even overzealous (to my way of thinking) owners, I know an awful lot of dogs I don't like. I say this with some sadness. I'm sure it is no good reflection of my character.

 

I love my dog, and try to do what's best for her. But I have a tendency to see other's dogs as mildly annoying or a downright nuisance. I have a use for my dog. She is my best friend, an uncritical listener, and she keeps the riff-raff away. This earns her my love and respect. But I am not a dog lover. I surprise even myself with the vehemence of my response when that term is applied to me.

 

But I am not alone in this way of looking at things. Many other devoted dog-owners of my acquaintance feel the same way. While I will come screaming in if I see a dog being hurt or terrorized, I am otherwise content to view the dogs of the world at a distance - and I'm more comfortable if they remain somewhat distant. (Well, I will say I'd love to get a chance to meet Betty Gillis's Stella. )

 

But I think this dichotomy may explain the sharp divide between those who find a gangley pup intent on shoe-icide annoying or entrancing. I got out of training because I felt that a trainer should like dogs a lot more than I do. It is fortunate for me and my dog that my vet, dog-walker and several of my best friends are dog lovers. I keep hoping they will be a "softening" influence on me. But I haven't noticed it yet...

 

Well, what the heck. I'm not a people person either. And don't get me started on kids!

[njnovice]

The non-dog-owning sector of the populace seems to think that dog-owner and dog-lover are synonymous terms. Alas, they are not. I put myself squarely in the first camp. I have no use for the vast majority of dogs that I encounter. What with poor breeding, poor manners and feckless owners - or even overzealous (to my way of thinking) owners, I know an awful lot of dogs I don't like. I say this with some sadness. I'm sure it is no good reflection of my character.

 

I love my dog, and try to do what's best for her. But I have a tendency to see other's dogs as mildly annoying or a downright nuisance. I have a use for my dog. She is my best friend, an uncritical listener, and she keeps the riff-raff away. This earns her my love and respect. But I am not a dog lover. I surprise even myself with the vehemence of my response when that term is applied to me.

 

But I am not alone in this way of looking at things. Many other devoted dog-owners of my acquaintance feel the same way. While I will come screaming in if I see a dog being hurt or terrorized, I am otherwise content to view the dogs of the world at a distance - and I'm more comfortable if they remain somewhat distant. (Well, I will say I'd love to get a chance to meet Betty Gillis's Stella. )

 

But I think this dichotomy may explain the sharp divide between those who find a gangley pup intent on shoe-icide annoying or entrancing. I got out of training because I felt that a trainer should like dogs a lot more than I do. It is fortunate for me and my dog that my vet, dog-walker and several of my best friends are dog lovers. I keep hoping they will be a "softening" influence on me. But I haven't noticed it yet...

 

Well, what the heck. I'm not a people person either. And don't get me started on kids!

 

Take for example my mom's GSD puppy, he's 13 weeks old and nearly the size of Mick already. He is a horrible jumper (for that matter, her 2 year old GSD still jumps on me) and he play bites, a lot. When he pulls this stuff on me, he ends up with a swift knee to the chest and if he bites, I grab his scruff. No complaints from my mother, but she's still firmly in the camp of "don't correct him, just give him a toy." It doesn't work on him.

 

Meanwhile, Mick will NOT jump on me. He knows better. Will he jump on other people? Yes. Will he knock it off with a firm verbal correction from me? Yes. But I really do get pissed off at the amount of friends I have who are like, "I like it, he's just so friendly." To me, jumping on people is not acceptable ever. My dogs do not jump on me. With Mick I'll say, "give me a hug" and he'll gently stand up and put his paws on my hips. Both of my dogs know the "get it" command, which means to jump up and grab whatever I'm holding or pointing to. That's the closest I allow to them jumping on/at people. If my dogs are jumping at people, I expect them to get a knee or swat, it doesn't bother them, it just gives them the hint to knock it off.

 

Oh, and I also don't like most other people's dogs. I like my family's dogs and my friend's dogs. I've dealt with too much stupidity at dog parks to want to deal with most other dogs. My dogs feel the same way, especially Mick.

[Gary M]

I guess I don't know where all these ill-mannered dogs are, or I have a higher tolerance threshold or maybe I have just been extremely lucky my entire life but I have never had the dog confrontations many here seem to have had. Not even when I was young (10-14) and my dad had a home delivery milk route that I was on every day of the summer or when I later had a paper route. I have never, literally never, been bitten by a dog other than my own and then only twice and both were understandable from the dog's viewpoint. (Sadie who bit me when she was in severe pain and I touched her wrong and a collie mix we had when I was a kid and I provoked her.)

 

Yes, I have had dogs try to hump my leg and other obnoxious behaviors and maybe its just me, but usually a good scowl or sharp "hey what the hell ya doing" has been all the correction necessary.

 

Substitute "your child" for "my dog" in these illustrations of poor training and are the actions of the aggrieved the same? If your ill mannered child won't stop screaming in a restaurant, do I have the right to crack him upside the head to correct your child rearing failure? Will you object if I do? How about if I catch your kid throwing eggs at my house, can I give him (or her) a good hard swift kick in the crotch? After all, it is YOUR job to manage YOUR child and it is not MY job to tolerate it or to adopt your particular method of training (to quote havenjm). Your child should be better behaved then my dog is unless you think my dog is smarter than your kid.

[geonni banner]

I guess I don't know where all these ill-mannered dogs are, or I have a higher tolerance threshold or maybe I have just been extremely lucky my entire life but I have never had the dog confrontations many here seem to have had. Not even when I was young (10-14) and my dad had a home delivery milk route that I was on every day of the summer or when I later had a paper route. I have never, literally never, been bitten by a dog other than my own and then only twice and both were understandable from the dog's viewpoint. (Sadie who bit me when she was in severe pain and I touched her wrong and a collie mix we had when I was a kid and I provoked her.)

 

Yes, I have had dogs try to hump my leg and other obnoxious behaviors and maybe its just me, but usually a good scowl or sharp "hey what the hell ya doing" has been all the correction necessary.

 

Substitute "your child" for "my dog" in these illustrations of poor training and are the actions of the aggrieved the same? If your ill mannered child won't stop screaming in a restaurant, do I have the right to crack him upside the head to correct your child rearing failure? Will you object if I do? How about if I catch your kid throwing eggs at my house, can I give him (or her) a good hard swift kick in the crotch? After all, it is YOUR job to manage YOUR child and it is not MY job to tolerate it or to adopt your particular method of training (to quote havenjm). Your child should be better behaved then my dog is unless you think my dog is smarter than your kid.

 

Well... Dogs aren't kids. You can get arrested for even threatening to slap a kid upside the head. And at least in my case, a dog (or kid) would have to be really obnoxious (read: intent on bodily harm) for me to slap it upside the head. And there would be a couple of "self defense" steps before the head-slap was unlimbered.

 

Obnoxious is in the "eye of the beholder." I have been bitten a number of times - but usually when I was teching at a vet's or working at a groomers. Any sort of physical bashing - and in most cases, even yelling are completely inappropriate in that context. The dog is scared, in pain, sick, whatever. You put on the smock and "you takes your chances." It's part of the job.

 

However, a dog on the street who wants to hump my leg, (crawl up the front of me), and other obnoxious behaviors is IMO, in need of correction. "A good scowl" is frequently ignored by both dog and owner, and a sharp "hey what the hell ya doing?" will often net you an indignant tirade about "being so mean." So if I choose to use a body-block, or holler "Get the hell away from me!" I see nothing wrong in that. I may be sorry for the dog, but I'll prevent it from any of the above if I can - but that doesn't have to include getting physical with the dog or the owner. Usually.

 

Maybe it's because I'm so close to "The People's Republic of Berkeley," but parents and dog-owners alike in my neck of the woods, tend to be really permissive, and feel that whatever their kid/ dog wants to do to you is just dandy. If it looks hostile, growls, or offers to bite it's because "you provoked him!" If he smears his muddy feet all over your clean clothes, its: "Why are you so uptight? He's just being a dog!" People tether their dogs to the front of the local grocery and go inside browsing for 20 minutes while their dog barks loudly and incessantly in the doorway of the store. And because they apparently have leather eardrums, you should too.

 

The kids are no better. I've had one push my adult Doberman Pinscher off a curb into the path of an approaching bus, another fired a cap-pistol at point-blank range into my dog's face, and another swatted my dog with a large tree branch. The kids in each case had a parent present who did nothing. (The only kids in my neighborhood who seem to be possessed of any manners or a clue about how to approach a strange dog are the much-maligned "ghetto kids" or skate-rats!)

 

If my Doberman so much as curled her lip at that kid who pushed her in front of a bus she could wind up in the pound for being a "dangerous dog." So of course I made sure that she did not go into retaliatory mode when liberties got taken with her. I do my best to see that those liberties don't get taken, but sometimes they get under the radar. Ergo, a well-trained dog is a must if it will be exposed to other humans and dogs.

[Gloria Atwater]

Hi folks! I'm new here, though I've been lurking a while. I have an 11 week old BC pup, Tug.

 

I've run into some problems with other people (all friends/family, at this point) attempting to discipline Tug, which isn't a problem in and of itself - except that they are doing it completely WRONG! A friend of mine has a Pomeranian female that she likes to bring to 'play' with Tug, except the Pom's idea of playing is to try to get him to chase her. I'd rather not encourage him to CHASE any other animals, especially not small furry ones, and his recall is nowhere near solid enough to be able to call him off her reliably. Further, this particular friend felt it appropriate to 'discipline' Tug for play-biting at her tail by pushing him over onto his back and yelling at him.

 

This is not how I teach, and I tried to make that clear to her. Most of my family is willing to follow the methods I use and has made an effort to remember the words he knows and use them appropriately. He's a little bit of an introvert, so I've been trying to work on his confidence and trying to 'roll' him and yell is most definitely NOT going to help that.

 

How do y'all deal with people that try to discipline your animals inappropriately? ......

 

 

Greetings all ~

 

To deal with the original post, (my apologies for a tangent responding more directly to Mr. McCaig) if someone were to correct a dog or puppy of mine in a way I can't approve of, my response would be direct and to the point. "Don't do that. I don't like it." I don't care if the person is my landlord or the mayor of New York.

 

That said, if my dog is doing something awful, such as chasing sheep or terrorizing the neighbor's Pomeranian, by all means, I expect the nearest person to administer the appropriate correction. But in matters of simple discipline, the only people I permit to correct my dogs are those whom I trust to do so correctly. Those people are free to deal with an infraction as if my pup were their own, but everyone else? Leave it alone. I'll deal with my dog. And I'm the one who bites.

Cheers ~

 

Gloria

[Maja]

Well, three cheers for Bernese mountain sheepdogs. I'd like to see anybody try to correct her .

 

But joking aside, I think Gloria's post reflects my views very well.

 

Maja

[Root Beer]

Greetings all ~

 

. . . if someone were to correct a dog or puppy of mine in a way I can't approve of, my response would be direct and to the point. "Don't do that. I don't like it." I don't care if the person is my landlord or the mayor of New York.

 

Same here.

 

And nobody is given free and unsupervised access to my dogs unless I know that I can trust them to treat them as I see fit. It's my job to teach my dogs manners in the way that I choose. Nobody else is given that privilege, regardless of their training preferences. Anyone who does not respect that is not permitted to interact directly with my dogs, even once manners are reliably solid. And that is not only in my home. I am extremely choosy about who I will hand a leash over to at a training class or competition. It must be someone who will handle my dog in the same way that I would.

 

So, if someone asks to pet my dog and the dog is not yet to the point where he or she won't jump, I let the person know that, and make it clear how I want things handled if the dog should jump. If the person does not agree, I do not allow that person to interact with the dog. That, of course, negates the possibility of the person having to endure behavior that he or she does not like, so it works out well.

[G. Festerling]

Eileen said:

I'm often taken aback by the hostility that some dog owners feel the need to express toward other dog owners and their dogs. It seems disproportionate to me, but not to those who are in its grip, I suppose.

 

Sorry, I just had to repost this. It always amazes me as well. Substitute the word 'dog' with kids (parents in that case obviously), horses, cats or whatever. It is all the same. I guess it all boils down to the fact that we all seem to think we can do better. Reminds me of my very best friend pre baby and now with a toddler!

I generally don't care much about others animals or how they choose to interact with them unless it is brought to me for advice or I see a dangerous situation develop. The extend of my involvement will vary from working with it to maybe just pointing out something I see. Totally depending on what is going on and if it is any of my business. This does exclude abuse of course.

Sometimes I forget (and since I have worked my dogs more I am constantly reminded of this since I am now the novice compared to my other animals) that others don't have the same background. May not know what I know. May not be able to do what I can do. And so on. And along the same lines, I don't know everything either! I know, hard to fess up to!

 

Having said this, if I choose to raise a dog a specific way (and I went though this with my GSD, right-wrong-or indifferent I followed my training directors advice) that makes them a pain in the rear for others potentially, I will do what I can to try to keep it under control. I will avoid any situation that others maybe affected. If I need others to help or they are interested in interactions with my guys, they co through me. Which for the most part is totally not an issue with my Germans!

And one more thing I try to remember is who I would feel if I was in the other persons shoes.