Query: evolution of language

[Donald McCaig]

[Dear Theoretistas. Ms. Banner writes:

 

I wondered about the stories of dogs finding missing sheep buried in snow that drifted up against a fence. A dog would need a pretty good nose for that.

 

In Scotland I was told that some sheepdogs are very good at this, others not. Almost all UK SAR dogs are Border Collies. Clearly they can use their noses, my experience is that they don't. Why?

 

Might be the training. We train for wide outruns where, at the end the dogs will find five or fewer sheep. Hill farmers and NZ musterers want a dog that can gather hundreds of sheep that may be scattered over a big space - hundreds of acres. Western sheep herders must sometimes gather but they'll be sheep the dog worked yesterday and will work tomorrow.

 

Wisconsin's 735 had the longest and most difficult outrun in the east - if you sent right, your dog went over one ridge, over another, then a third and disappeared for a very long time before he found the sheep. Sent left, he had to find one (invisible to the handler) open gate in a fence halfway across the field. First time I ran it, I was 5th to run and the first four open dogs failed to get to the sheep. Luke found them and it is the only time in my life I've ever been happy with a crossover.

 

Afterwards, I said to Jack Knox: "We don't train our dogs to do this."

 

He replied, "No. We don't teach our dogs how to find sheep."

 

 

Donald McCaig

[Tea]

And this is something that I must do. Have the dogs find sheep.

As my sheep forage in deep forest and the pasture land is only thirty or so acres.

And the grass is up halfway up my horses shoulder. When they spread out...it is Sweep the Broom that is best at gathering the fields of tall grass. And Gunny the deep forest.

 

Last night A lamb got out

 

I suspect a black bear compromised my fencelines, back in the woods where I keep my sheep at night. (This time of year they swim over to our island.)

 

Cap and Gunny found this lamb, a black lamb at night. Without direction from me. As I couldn't see anything. And brough her back to the gate.

 

I could tell the dogs nothing. I could only wait in the dark and hope they found her and brought her to me.

 

One young ewelamb.

 

Is is in these circumstances I thank all the shepherds that bred these dogs and I now stand on their bones.

[ThunderHill]

I *love* Geonni's comparison of scent to music... that's the kind of shift of underlying parameter which can really open up some avenues of thought.

 

As for Border Collies not (generally) using their noses for sheep work, I wonder whether it's just not a tool we've selected against as a primary choice, on their behalf. Humans at some point in time found a particular style very effective for most sheep work, and then chose to perpetuate and embellish that style (both genetically and through focused training) for many generations of dogs. It's not surprising that the tool set we've selected for in well-bred Border Collies is the thing they use first -- primarily sight, combined with some reliance on the handler to set them on the correct track.

 

I'm also wondering how most sheep would react if they realized a dog was tracking them by scent. Sheep are experts in body language and they'd know. Being "hunted" in such a classic mode might set off a very fundamental predator alert, depending on how close the dog approached. Would a dog know to switch styles in order to go back to conventional "working" once the wayward flock (or individual) had been located?

 

My more experienced dog will find scattered sheep in rough terrain and mixed brush if I just say, "Find 'em." He's more likely to miss a few if I give him a specific flank. He learned that early in his life, when I had a much rougher piece of property, and I think it's stood him in good stead for practical chores. Since I've moved I don't have the same opportunities for the dogs to figure things out on their own and I can tell the difference when I'm doing certain kinds of work. (Not generally things I'd be doing in a trial unless a run was truly badly busted.) That (and not having to trim feet because of all the boulders) is about the only thing I miss about my old place.

 

Great discussion, all. More, please.

 

Liz S in SCPA

[Liz P]

I also use a "find 'em" command when I want my dog to search for sheep in brush, tall grass, etc. It is still a flank command, but the dogs take more time and use their noses. It is also a signal that the sheep will not be bunched up together and that strays need to be located. Frankie is much better than his dam, but I started teaching that command to him right away while I did not teach her until later in life. I don't know if that is why Frankie is better.

 

Maybe it is a difference in training experiences in the USA on hobby farms vs big holdings in the UK where dogs get practical experience sweeping large hills.

[Maja]

My BC does not find sheep in snowdrifts, because there is no need for this, but she finds my gloves which often fall out my pocket somewhere on the pasture. Sometimes i realize a few days later after heave snowfall that I lost one of my gloves (I have a few pairs), and I say 'find it' and she goes off and looks for it. Once she found my glove all by herself. So it is nothing surprising that a dog would find a sheep.

 

Maja

[ThunderHill]

Warning: another tangent ahead.

 

Speaking of the puzzlements involved in moving communication from one medium to another... Without any conscious intent, as my dogs and I have muddled along, we seem to have evolved a secondary vocabulary of non-traditional verbal signals which are clear to us, and useful to us, but which I despair of translating to use with a whistle.

 

"Bring 'em" means go out whichever way you like and fetch the stock. (Often ends a fiddling around with mini-flanks driving session.) Sometimes I want to see which way the dog chooses to go when I'm not micro-managing -- that can tell me about the dog, the sheep, and the dog's opinions about the sheeps' intentions.

 

"Get around" means ignore the flight zone and deal with the pressure and get to the other side of your stock -- often used in small spaces (paddocks, pens) where squeezing along a fence may be necessary; will often correct a dog who's hesitating and/or eyeing up a dubious sheep at close quarters and about to cause a fight. (I find that if the dog will move on past a worried sheep and give it somewhere to go, things tend to go more smoothly.)

 

"Watch 'em" means hey, if you don't pay better attention some sheep may bowl into you.

 

"Push" means move the sheep away, turn up the power a notch, don't just hold them -- but keep them balanced. I use it when I'm switching a dog from fetch to drive but other times as well... it's not quite the same as "walk up" or "walk in." More of a "lean on them just a little."

 

"Get 'em up" means move them whatever it takes -- dog may use teeth (judiciously) as needed.

 

"Put 'em in here," means through this opening I'm standing next to, whether it's a gate, a pen, a barn door, a trailer.

 

So, my dogs already have the language skills to comprehend what *these* sounds mean (at least, in context) when I make them. Now how am I going to figure out equivalent whistles? And get *that* across to my canine partner?

 

Wah. Sheepdogging is HARD. :-)

 

Liz S in SCPA

[JenS]

In regards to dogs using their ears to find sheep, I have two experiences of my now gone to the bridge dog, Woody, doing just that at dog trials.

 

Once was at Zamora. Now Woody was never a really great outrunner. He would decide he knew where the sheep were (if he really did or not) and that is where he would go regardless of my input. (If he was wrong, I could direct him anywhere, but he had to be proven wrong first). Because of this, I always made a point of having him spot the set sheep sometime before our run. He often wasn't to keen on this practice as he knew when we were actually ready to run and thought spotting sheep early wasn't a priority.

 

So on the Zamora field, we would go to the hill that ran along the trial field. A great place to watch the dog and sheep during the blind part of the fetch. While we were out there, I would encourage him to look for sheep as they were brought from set-out. He would do this halfheartedly, and didn't seem to actually see them. Then for one set, a noisy sheep was part of the group. He locked onto promptly when I asked him look for sheep. As a result, when it was our turn, he had no problem getting nicely to his sheep. He didn't always run out well on outruns over 400 yards, so I think having heard the sheep is what allowed him to get out there.

 

The second time was a much better example. It was a Western Regional in Oregon. The field was gorgeous, mostly flat with a hill at the top. I can't recall the distance, but it was probably 400-500 yards on the flat with another 100 yards up the hill to the sheep. Woody went out nice, but begin to cut in at the base of the hill. As I was inhaling to blow him back out (later than I should have, as there were a few trees on the field obstructing my view, and my eyesight is poor) one of the set sheep bleated quite loudly. Woody heard and bent back out perfectly, ending up behind his set right where he needed to be. If that sheep hadn't of hollered, we likely would have had a cross over.

 

Now at home my dogs use their ears for sheep quite a bit, but I do have at least one sheep with a bell on it, so not sure that really counts. I've seen them target in on the grass and tall weeds rustling too. I have never noticed scenting for sheep. I have kept ducks and they can be quite good at running and hiding when a young (or visiting) dog gets a bit out of hand. If they are missing, I have dogs scent them out to me so I can retrieve them.

 

Interesting discussion. Great to read when it is 107 outside...