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Crossing Over - Class comparison and ability


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We were talking to a friend the other day that has recently raised a litter of pups but has only seen AKC herding events. We got on the subject of dogs that are considered proven and she mentioned that the sire of her pups has his "Started" title and she was under the impression that she had bred to a dog that had really proven himself as a working dog. She had never seen him work but was basing ability on the title. I'm not going to dispute or worry about the male dogs ability, I figure that it is neither here nor there, but it did make me wonder what my friend's opinion of Started was. I raised the following question to her "What is your vision of how a dog works and handles that has acheived their Started Title". Her answer was "A dog that works like Jake", the dog that we are running in Open at the USBCHA trials.

 

This got me thinking about perception and how each of the venues requirements translate.

 

 

Anyway, I've heard others that want to cross over from the other venues and run at some events that offer the USBCHA sanctioned classes or even unsanction but with simular requirements, what level would you suggest they compete successfully at in the other venues (AKC, AHBA & ASCA) before making the cross over into the following classes:

 

1) Novice, short course either open field or arena; a) that is required to execute a OLF and short drive and pen B) that is required to exectue a OLF and has the option to leave the handler post to assist the drive or fetch/lead the rest of the course followed by a pen?

 

2) Pro-Novice a) open field & B) arena, both requiring drives with the handler required to stay at the handlers post or a line even with the handlers post.

 

3) Open a) open field with a shed & B) arena with a shed.

 

I'm hoping someone that has competed in other venues can share some information, views and suggestions.

 

ETA: to disable the emoticons, sorry about that

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I am not exactly sure what you are asking, but I think there is such a huge difference between field trials and arena trials that they are incomparable. An open arena course is miles easier than a pro-novice field course, in my opinion.

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I am not exactly sure what you are asking, but I think there is such a huge difference between field trials and arena trials that they are incomparable. An open arena course is miles easier than a pro-novice field course, in my opinion.

 

 

I understand what you are saying, I guess I'm looking at the base requirements of approching and controlling the stock on the OLF properly, driving, the ability to flank and stop at any location, shed and control the livestock independently while driving and not relying on the handler or a fence.

 

In our novice, even arena, the dog needs to be able to execute a OLF. often time lifting off a set out dog, we set the sheep closer to the handler for novice, pro-novice and open has to get their sheep off of the back fence in the shorter trials, we set out off the back fence a bit if room allows. After the handlers post turn they can assist to a panel (drive or fetch) and then pen, the distance varies. Where would a person in the other venues need to be successfully competing, in order to successfully cross over and compete in that Novice class?

 

Then if the novice course required a single drive leg and pen?

 

When we move to bigger fields novice still runs novice, pro-novice is still pro-novice, it's just longer outruns, drives & fetches and Open often times sheds with the exception of cattledog trials.

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This doesn't answer your question but what's really sad is when a dog can have advanced "titles" in other venues but barely competes at ProNov or Ranch in ISDS-style trials, and then takes years to advance to Open if it makes it that far.

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Hi Debbie ~

 

Having trialed over the years in AHBA, ASCA and even (*whispers*) AKC, I think I know what you're asking. In my humble opinion, I think that for most arena-trialed dogs, the cross-pollination to USBCHA is minimal. I see few dogs who run in USBCHA trials run also in AHBA or ASCA.

 

I think a large reason for that is simply that there is such a HUGE variance in the requirements of USBCHA versus the other venues. The AKC "A" course favors a dog that just patters along in perfectly straight lines, holding the sheep to perfectly straight lines along a fence and through a short cross-drive. The most common ASCA courses, A and B course, are also entirely arena-contained. I do enjoy the AHBA ranch trials, because course directors can get creative in how they fill course requirements and it approximates actual ranch work. But again the AHBA courses are relatively small, taking place in fenced pastures and paddocks, and the dogs are never too far away to be directed by voice.

 

The distances alone are a tremendous difference; a 240 foot AHBA outrun versus working sheep that are 350-600 yards from the handler. When comparing to USBCHA trialing, the training is different, the sheep may be very different, and the terrain and the tasks are different. Success in the other venues may or may not translate to success in USBCHA.

 

In the end, I feel it would depend entirely on the abilities of the individual dog, rather than his level at the arena venues. Different dogs have different aptitudes, that's all.

 

In lieu of an answer to your original question, I'll say this. My Nick turned 2 in May and he's completed Started in ASCA and HRD II in AHBA. We'll be trialing HRD III in September. However, in the USBCHA world ... we're still in Novice-Novice, with a view towards having him ready for Pro-Novice next year. His success in the other venues does not translate save in broadest terms for what I'll need him to do for Pro-Novice.

 

I don't know if this helps, but I tried! :rolleyes:

Cheers ~

 

Gloria

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I have run...in my previous life AKC; run currently in USBCHA open & PN; AHBA in the III level

 

so:

 

AKC A course: started similar to AHBA HTADII (herding trial arena dog)

intermediate& advanced: AHBA HTADIII

 

AKC B course: started: USBCHA NN; with a shorter outrun: harder than AHBA HTDI (herding trial dog)

intermediate: just slightly harder than USBCHA NN; AHBA HTDII

advanced: USBCHA PN with a shed; AHBA III

 

AKC C course: nothing in USBCHA: AHBA RTDIII

 

just for interest sake

 

Cynthia

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I have run...in my previous life AKC; run currently in USBCHA open & PN; AHBA in the III level

 

so:

 

AKC A course: started similar to AHBA HTADII (herding trial arena dog)

intermediate& advanced: AHBA HTADIII

 

AKC B course: started: USBCHA NN; with a shorter outrun: harder than AHBA HTDI (herding trial dog)

intermediate: just slightly harder than USBCHA NN; AHBA HTDII

advanced: USBCHA PN with a shed; AHBA III

 

AKC C course: nothing in USBCHA: AHBA RTDIII

 

just for interest sake

 

Cynthia

 

I feel compelled to point out that this doesn't apply in all parts of the country, unless the AKC B advanced course has a 350-yard outrun, as can be the case in Western USBCHA pro-novice trials (e.g., Utah's Icebreaker trial last year). I know nothing about AKC trials, so maybe it is the case--but if it is, then I don't see why people rag on AKC trials.

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You really cannot compare AKC B course with any of the USBCHA courses as the AKC courses are measured in feet not yards. Absolutely no comparison.

 

Kathy

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And it's not just the course.

Often times (at least out in the west) the sheep in USBCHA trials can be very wild and ornery.

In my opinion this is where the ultimate challenge originates in these trials.

 

charlie

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AKC Herding Regulations

 

"Course B" is the course most similar to ISDS/USBCHA-style trials.

 

You really cannot compare AKC B course with any of the USBCHA courses as the AKC courses are measured in feet not yards. Absolutely no comparison.

 

Kathy

 

Kathy, three feet still equals a yard no matter who is notating the distance, even if it is AKC. But you knew that, right? :rolleyes:

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AKC Herding Regulations

 

"Course B" is the course most similar to ISDS/USBCHA-style trials.

Kathy, three feet still equals a yard no matter who is notating the distance, even if it is AKC. But you knew that, right? :rolleyes:

Not Kathy, but true - according to your link, Advanced (cattle and sheep) outruns are 350 feet minimum to 1200 feet maximum. Sounds like AKC thinks in terms of feet, not yards. And, if you consider that an "average" USBCHA course has a 350 yard outrun (and a maximum of maybe 700 - 800 yards, not by regulation but just by practicality of field of vision), there is a pretty obvious difference in scale.

 

Of course, there are courses that range from one extreme to the other, and all points in between. Some are more or less worthy to be considered reasonable tests to provide qualifying points for National Finals.

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So for those who don't want to do the math, AKC allows outruns anywhere from 116 yards to 400 yards (did I calculate correctly?). So Sue's difference of scale is that the longest outrun allowed by AKC is equivalent to pretty much the shortest outrun you'd find on a USBCHA "advanced" (open) course. In practice, I'd be willing to bet that very few AKC courses are offered at the maximum outrun and most are offered at the minimum.

 

To compare the AKC distances to courses in my neck of the woods, the minimum outrun would be the equivalent of a N/N or P/N outrun (the two lowest classes in "border collie trials" (and not to be confused with the western P/N, which is the equivalent of our ranch class).

 

The few venues I've been to that also offer AKC and similar trials seem to hold those trials on small fields, where the hosts of the trials I attend would hold N/N and P/N classes.

 

As for AKC courses with a shed, do they really do a shed like we would do in a USBCHA open course? I've heard a lot about ribbon pulls and the like, but nothing about actual sheds (separate off some of the sheep and hold them off the others), though I imagine doing so would be tough in a small area.

 

J.

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Julie- one thing- in the north east, you see trials with 300 yd outruns (open).

 

So for those who don't want to do the math, AKC allows outruns anywhere from 116 yards to 400 yards (did I calculate correctly?). So Sue's difference of scale is that the longest outrun allowed by AKC is equivalent to pretty much the shortest outrun you'd find on a USBCHA "advanced" (open) course. In practice, I'd be willing to bet that very few AKC courses are offered at the maximum outrun and most are offered at the minimum.

 

To compare the AKC distances to courses in my neck of the woods, the minimum outrun would be the equivalent of a N/N or P/N outrun (the two lowest classes in "border collie trials" (and not to be confused with the western P/N, which is the equivalent of our ranch class).

 

The few venues I've been to that also offer AKC and similar trials seem to hold those trials on small fields, where the hosts of the trials I attend would hold N/N and P/N classes.

 

As for AKC courses with a shed, do they really do a shed like we would do in a USBCHA open course? I've heard a lot about ribbon pulls and the like, but nothing about actual sheds (separate off some of the sheep and hold them off the others), though I imagine doing so would be tough in a small area.

 

J.

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JulieW,

Yes, I am aware of USBCHA trials with shorter outruns, but I don't think they are the majority. And Sue had already pointed out that some USBCHA trials have shorter outruns, and obviously USBCHA arena trials have very short outruns, but you're unlikely to find an open trial at the *minimum* AKC distance, which is where the majority of AKC trials seem to fall. And many USBCHA trials have outruns significantly longer than 300 yards. The point is that I seriously doubt you see many, if any, AKC outruns set anywhere near 300 yards. Maybe someone with more experience with AKC than I can state otherwise with more authority than me, but since AKC is for all breeds and all breeds must be accommodated according to their rules (except at breed-specific trials), the choice for outruns seems to land at the lower end (can you imagine what, say, corgi owners would have to say about the overall fairness if they showed up at a trial with a 400-yard outrun?).

 

J.

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I was talking in generalities; and yes the outruns are shorter (which i did note);

 

The sheep are different etc.

 

I have not trialed in AKC for 8 years since i stopped trialling my ACD so this is by memory;

 

At the AKC trials the started B class was onlly about 70 yards...

 

B intermediate: 120 yards, drive away, assisted cross drive, pen...possibly a hold in the ring, can't remember

 

B advanced: 200 yards, drive, cross drive (of approx 200yards), pen, shed...yes a real shed; and everyone complained that these sheep were hard to shed; B advanced is somewhat similar to PN in Ontario

 

It isn't nearly as hard as the USBCHA course, which is where i trial now, but we were asked what the similarities and differences were.

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Poor Corgi!

 

JulieW,

Yes, I am aware of USBCHA trials with shorter outruns, but I don't think they are the majority. And Sue had already pointed out that some USBCHA trials have shorter outruns, and obviously USBCHA arena trials have very short outruns, but you're unlikely to find an open trial at the *minimum* AKC distance, which is where the majority of AKC trials seem to fall. And many USBCHA trials have outruns significantly longer than 300 yards. The point is that I seriously doubt you see many, if any, AKC outruns set anywhere near 300 yards. Maybe someone with more experience with AKC than I can state otherwise with more authority than me, but since AKC is for all breeds and all breeds must be accommodated according to their rules (except at breed-specific trials), the choice for outruns seems to land at the lower end (can you imagine what, say, corgi owners would have to say about the overall fairness if they showed up at a trial with a 400-yard outrun?).

 

J.

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Poor Corgi!

Ha! Reminds me of a trial I was at once where I commented on what was meant to be the role of a working corgi, per corgi people: droving dogs who worked cattle (driving them down the road to the market, for example). The person I mentioned that to got highly offended at the implication that corgis weren't meant for large acreages like some of the bigger herding breeds might be (she had corgis) and went on to tell me that she had sold corgis onto 2,000-acre cattle farms in Canada where the dogs did indeed gather the cattle off of large acreages. I couldn't help but picture the farmer getting up before dawn, sending the poor little dwarf-legged corgi out to gather the 2,000 acres while he went back to bed to sleep for a little while longer, then got up and had breakfast and then read the paper while he waited for his herd to show up.... (No disrespect intended to corgis, honest, I just don't see the point in trying to make a particular dog into something it's not.)

 

J.

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Catch-22. This is what a couple of AKC judges told me: the advanced B outrun can never be 400 yards because the maximum beginner outrun is 100 yards. The courses have to be proportionate, so if novice can't be more than 100 yards, then their advanced are not allowed be the maximum the rules ostensibly permit. Maximum footage/yardage in their novice controls other classes regardless.

 

In practice, a B course outrun has never once been larger than 250 yards, not even up to the maximum 300 that the rules as interpreted allow. The 100 yard cap on their started level rules the roost, not that it matters because they don't run novice courses at 100 yards ordinarily.

 

I think I got this right.

 

Penny

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Every ACK trial I ever saw or heard of (and, yes, I'll admit I've seen quite a few in the past), the premium (entry form) always stated that the distances were the minimum. And, the entries for the A course were always plentiful, while the B course usually had at most 8 or 10 dogs running, and this includes all three levels. Pretty much noone was up to the task of getting out of that damned arena,

A

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Catch-22. This is what a couple of AKC judges told me: the advanced B outrun can never be 400 yards because the maximum beginner outrun is 100 yards. The courses have to be proportionate, so if novice can't be more than 100 yards, then their advanced are not allowed be the maximum the rules ostensibly permit. Maximum footage/yardage in their novice controls other classes regardless.

 

In practice, a B course outrun has never once been larger than 250 yards, not even up to the maximum 300 that the rules as interpreted allow. The 100 yard cap on their started level rules the roost, not that it matters because they don't run novice courses at 100 yards ordinarily.

 

I think I got this right.

 

Penny

Penny, are you saying that whatever the lowest level (B course) runs, sets the field/size for the most advanced level offered - all levels run the same size course (with the modifications for drive, etc.) at any particular event? That would certainly set the bar pretty low.

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Penny, are you saying that whatever the lowest level (B course) runs, sets the field/size for the most advanced level offered - all levels run the same size course (with the modifications for drive, etc.) at any particular event? That would certainly set the bar pretty low.

 

That's not it at all. The three outruns have to be different lengths.

 

But I probably don't have the correct details on why their advanced course can't really be 400. I'll see if I can find someone to explain the rule. It's completely forgettable because senseless.

 

Penny

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Dear Doggers,

 

Julie wrote: The person I mentioned that to got highly offended at the implication that corgis weren't meant for large acreages like some of the bigger herding breeds might be (she had corgis) and went on to tell me that she had sold corgis onto 2,000-acre cattle farms in Canada where the dogs did indeed gather the cattle off of large acreages.

 

Nope. That's wrong. It was Lassie Collies working sheep in British Columbia. Northern British Columbia. Very far northern British Columbia far, far, far from trials. And, as I recall, the owner of these marvelous dogs was a recluse who never left the ranch. Marvelous dogs. Better than Border Collies because so much gentler on the stock. My source was unimpeachable. Been in Collies for years.

 

Donald McCaig

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