Train the dog or the breed

[sea4th]

I hope I can phrase this question clearly. This is I think a working border collie vs. other herding breeds question.

 

Training a stockdog----do you train the dog as an individual without giving thought to the breed in question? Those who have had experience with training other breeds, would you handle the same situation differently depending on the breed?

 

I feel a (yet another) debate surfacing with a bc owner, taking advice from AKC all-breed training people telling her that you train strictly the individual, with no consideration given to the breed. Some of these people she is getting advice from don't even own a border collie, so IMO don't have the grasp of the mindset of a working border collie.

 

My response would be training the individual within the breed, i.e., keeping in mind the breed while adjusting training methods to the individual.

 

It appears to me that this bc owner, based on the all-breed methods of training, is not allowing the dog to develop --- by a lot of control ---- it's stock sense & working abilities. This is soley based on conversation, and not having watched her work.

 

I've tried to remain as objective as I can in posing this question. I've failed.----Hope I made sense though.

 

Thanks.

 

Vicki

[cgt]

People with more experience will give a better answer, but even with my piddly little background it seems pretty clear that the breed of dog involved *should* play a big role in how you train. Different breeds work in different ways and your training progression must take that into account.

 

Of course you have to take into account each individual dog's personality, talents, defects, etc., but the general strategy ought to be heavily influenced by the breed. For example, Border Collies are more naturally gathering dogs and so you usually start shaping their instinct via gathering type training (circle exercises, fetching, etc.)

 

Having said all that, given that most breeds have had all the instinct bred out of them, I can see why people would say that the breed is irrelevant. If the dog has lost all of its instinct (but kept its beautiful appearance :eek: ), I guess you just train the individual dog in what is probably a rather mechanical and limited style of work.

 

charlie torre

[blackacre]

"It appears to me that this bc owner, based on the all-breed methods of training, is not allowing the dog to develop --- by a lot of control ---- it's stock sense & working abilities"

 

I think you are more or less right. Most other breeds (OB's shall we call them) do not have a lot of natural instinct. Therefore, the all-breed trainers with little or no exposure to border collies have come up with a method of training that is somewhat or in some cases entirely mechanical. You could, after all, train a poodle to perform the basics. I had a friend take her poodle to a Pat Shanahan clinic for beginner dogs many years ago and do just fine. She had sheep and the poodle, so she figured, "why not?" (She ended up buying a couple of border collies from Pat BTW.)

I did once attend an all breed herding clinic to spectate. I do occasionally have OB people beg me to help them with their dog and I sometimes give in, usually against my better judgement, so I thought it would be useful to see how the OB trainers did it and in what way it differed from the way border collies were trained, as I understood it. Hmmm, quite an experience. The clinician, dog, handler and three or four sheep went into a pen the size of a small stall, say 6-7 feet across. Oh yes, a rake figured too. The dog was "encouraged" to go around the outside of this tiny area, over and over again. Some of these dogs had been doing this for months, since the last time the clinician was in town. The 'advanced' dogs were permitted to graduate to a somewhat larger round pen, say 20' across. I AM NOT MAKING THIS UP. Anyway, the one thing that struck me was that there were two or three border collies in the clinic, pretty useless, but nonethess. One or two in particular showed some desire to turn in at balance and walk up. THEY WERE REPRIMANDED FOR DOING THIS, as they were meant to continue circling endlessly at a sufficient distance and acceptable pace, so as to please the clinician. Yup, the rake figured again.

I also noticed that the same dogs were VERY uneasy in the tiny area they were started in. It would be unsurprising for a border collie, especially a young one, to feel uncomfortable in a small area like this because of the pressure.

The point of this is that I am pretty sure the clinician had no idea that turning in at balance was a good thing, nor did she think to observe that the border collie was uncomfortable with the pressure in the stall sized area. It did not fit into her scheme of things, which was mechanical control.

Add resentment and envy to a general lack of knowledge of border collies and you pretty much have the picture when it comes to OB trainers, unless by chance they come from border collies in the first place, and many do. Sure, I might be overstating the case, so I am perfectly willing to stand corrected.

A.

[Smokjbc]

Hi,

 

I have worked with some "alternate" breeds, mostly German Shepherds, ACDs & Aussies. Aussies are the only breed, at least with the dogs I've been presented with, that seem to train in a similar manner as Border Collies. Of course, another factor is that the ACDs and the German Shepherds have been show bred and not herding bred dog. The GSDs have been really difficult to work with- most have some desire to work and circle, but of course lack the gather and balancing of the Border Collies and Aussies. I don't agree with working these breeds in super small space and forcing circling- in fact I work more on half flanks and stopping and walking in with them. Lots and lots of walking around, it is very difficult to maintain a true fetch with these dogs. It seems it takes tons of repetition to get these breeds to start even a slight pause at an artificial balance, let alone a stop and a controlled fetch. Then once you get that improved, you have to deal with their lack of covering ability- you'll get the dog slowed down and fetching, but if things get split, they have to be manually forced out and around to cover. Circling at hand does not equate learning balance at a distince. To be fair to the dogs though, they were originallly bred to maintain a border around the stock- what we are trying to do with these dogs is not what they would have been bred for even if they had been herding bred and not show bred- if that makes sense. Plus you have the factor of these people usually dabbling in 2-3 different dog sports/conformation/etc- when you don't have that natural instinct to begin with, its very hard to create it in sporadic, semi monthly sessions.

 

Another problem I've had, especially with the German Shepherds, is that I can see that sometimes the least talented and keen dogs have an AKC advantage. For example, I have two dogs that come out that are very different. One is super keen, has some real natural instinct, more cover than most and will think things out, but is also an extremely strong (but not overly aggressive, more pushy) and hard to pace. The second dog is semi-keen, has some circling ability, is sensitive and listens well. Out of the two, the first dog is a better herding representative of his breed, but the second dog will definitely be a better AKC trial dog and will probably be able to obtain titles faster.

I have ethical issues with all this, but its outweighed by my need to pay sheep rent. I have decided to take no more new GSDs though, my sheep were getting pretty fed up with them anyways

 

I rarely get a border collie out, and so far only one or two have been decently bred and talented- but those few good ones really underline the difference between breeds. Not only do they progress further, but you can see the sheep visibly relax when that border collies start real working. They never really relax off the other breeds- they don't seem to have any concept of releasing pressure on the stock.

[blackacre]

"It seems it takes tons of repetition to get these breeds to start even a slight pause at an artificial balance, let alone a stop and a controlled fetch. Then once you get that improved, you have to deal with their lack of covering ability . . . "

 

Yes, that's been pretty well what I have observed. If I had to reduce it even further, i would say that what OB's lack and border collies have in abundance is the intense desire to control stock. OB's must be placed or manoevered into the right position; border collies are there before you think to ask.

A.

[Pam Wolf]

Vicki, Just because someone calls him/her self a trainer does not mean they know jack $&*@ about training for herding work.

 

Far too often in AKC and other venues where arena trials predominate the emphasis is on getting mechanical work from any dog, regardless of breed. BC's fortunately learn alot faster and have more natural talent and can overcome a trainer's lack of ability. (or can easily be screwed up by said trainer ) While a natural dog can do well in arena trials, more often than not the 'mechanical' robotic dog will earn a higher score. (Many reasons for this, one being that often the natural dog MAY need more space to find the balance than is offered in the confines of an arena. IOW the sheep may sense that the 'natural' dog really wants to control them and require a larger distance from the dog whereas the mechanical dog has often had the 'work' taken out of him--indeed if it did ever exist--and much like the sheep accept the guardian dog, they accept this mechanical dog)

 

I've trained 10 different breeds and treated each dog as an individual, trying to help shape the behaviours that each dog has and encourage improvements where lacking. I've found most of the OB's (or BC's NOT bred for work)tend to require more work on 'the basics', being balance and pacing the stock. It takes MUCH longer for these dogs to comprehend. Unfortunately, it is MUCH easier to slow the dog down on outruns (as is frequently advocated by OB trainers) rather than let the dog figure out how to distance himself from the sheep in a 'more natural' manner. It is easier to rely on the stock doing the job for you (course trained stock and dogs abound) than to train your dog to cover and handle the stock for 'real work'.

 

And for these folks at the end of the day what really matters is that they get their title regardless of whether their dogs can work or not.

 

Pam

[blackacre]

"Unfortunately, it is MUCH easier to slow the dog down on outruns (as is frequently advocated by OB trainers) rather than let the dog figure out how to distance himself from the sheep in a 'more natural' manner."

 

Ahhh, I wondered about this obsession the OB folks seem to have.

I also attended an AHBA trial in my selfless quest for knowledge of OB's and it was much as you describe. It was a good thing that the sheep were sour, because, as far as I could see, not one OB ever got to the lift point on the 'outrun', nor did they need to. The sheep were quite unperturbed by the 'advanced' dogs, which maintained a steady pace and stayed well off the sheep. Two OB's actually stopped to take a crap and the sheep stopped and waited obediently until they were done.

A.

[HerdinGal]

I started out with Aussies, and even as I've becomed a primarily Border Collie person myself (my Aussies remain as wonderful companions ) I still train a number of other breeds - the Aussies of course, plus the heeling types (ACDs, Blues, Queenslands), Belgians (all 3 types), Corgis, Shelties, and the occassionally a mix of BC/Aussie, plus the rare Rotteweiler or GSD. I've had pretty good success with these breeds in terms of getting out of them capable practical stockwork - as well as trialing level skills (mostly arena but also some field if the owner had the time and determination).

 

From my own trainer I have developed the idea that "stockwork is stockwork" and breed specifity is irrelevant. In order to be useful the dog must be conditioned to circle first, from which the flanks and proper perimeter on the flight zone is taught. Some dogs take longer to learn this than others...some dogs require different encouragement than others...you work with what you have. Once you have those skills in place you can either continue to outrun (my preference) or at least have a controlled steady drive with enough flank arc to gather and cover the stock.

 

A reliable stop, recall, and controlled grip are essentional as well - and come with time and in the method that suits that individual.

 

No, many of these breeds will never reach the general level of skills that we would expect in a Border Collie in the time frame we come to expect... but they can be used to their maximum capacity and certainly be *useful* and fun. Very few do not have enough skills to bother with training, and even less have no skills at all for stock.

 

Of course no dog is perfect, and some are less perfect than most. It doesn't matter what the breed is...It matters what the owner is willing to do to use what the dog has. A 25% dog who used 100% of what he is generally will be better than a 100% dog only trained to 25% of his ability. A positive attitude goes a long way...especially when coupled with determination and true love of a dog and a breed.

[Bill Fosher]

Every dog is an individual, but by the sounds of it these All Breeds trainers are not training the individual or the breed. They have The Method, and they apply it. Simple as that.

 

Having read the item about slowing a dog down on the outrun, I now understand what someone said to me after a run at the last trial I went to.

 

If anyone has ever seen my Tweed on his outrun, they've learned to cover their ears to avoid damage from the sonic boom. When he was younger, he had an "atrun" more than an outrun, but with time and practice, he has become the nicest outrunning dog I've ever worked with. It is a speedy outrun, but I like it that way. Leaves more time at the the end of the run for the finesse work.

 

Well, after seeing Tweed's run, a spectator came up to me and said something about what a nice young dog he would be if I could get control of him on the outrun. I said something like I thought his outrun was fine, and the judge apparently agreed because no points were deducted. The spectator was baffled, but I had to cut the conversation short so I never found out what the thinking was. Now I guess I know.

[Pam Wolf]

Bill, I love the sonic boom! I'm not sure why the thought of the day is that it is an 'outwalk' when the term is 'outRUN'. I think it is an effort to appear controlled when things cannot be unless the dog is extremely slow.

 

You are right, if the dog gets down the field faster (but correctly) then you do have more time for the rest of the course in case any problems come up. From what I see of the OB's the problem is not speed so much as it is very difficult to maintain speed and get the dog to give distance from the sheep. If the distance is pushed too fast, the dog does slow down. But the problem is more with distance than speed in the early stages--of course most of these dogs lack the structure for being fast as a BC anyway.

 

And I think you have a valid point about people using 'the method' instead of training the dog. And, I don't think it is limited to all breed trainers.

 

Pam

[Bill Fosher]

When I think of a great trainer like Jack Knox, who has the ability to get great a young dog to make great strides in a couple of days at a clinic, and when I think of what I thought I was seeing when I first watched him work, I can understand how people arrive at the "one size fits all approach" to training.

 

Jack's use of pressure and release, and his ability to find the exact point at which a dog needs release from pressure, and the exact point when a dog needs pressure applied again, and how much pressure, are the subtlties that are lost on most people. I know they were lost on me until I had been working with sheepdogs for nearly seven years.

 

I shouldn't just pick on Jack. There are a handful of other people who have skills similar to his. But the point is that to most of the people who are watching him, he is simply running dogs around and around in a round pen, and saying "Git bock" from time to time. Undoubtedly some folk think "shoot, I can do that" and go home and try it. They don't get the results that Jack gets because they can't read dogs and stock and react to them the way Jack can.

 

So somewhere in there, there is a balance between using a method and training the individual. I really don't think breed considerations come into it very much. If the all breeds people want to spend the time teaching a bloodhound to herd by smearing peanut butter on the sheep's butts, that's their business, I susppose. But you can't make a dog want to herd. Any training worth doing starts from the presumption that the individual dog -- regardless of breed -- wants to work.

[blackacre]

Jack could make a dog bought off the back of a pickup in a Kmart parking lot look good. In fact, I saw him do just that once. He is a master at reading dogs and applying and releasing the right amount pressure at the right time.

I do not, however, think that this speaks to the issue of training the individual with no regard for the characteristics of the breed. I would think that he has a goal in mind but is well aware that he will not achieve it in the few minutes allocated to that dog should it be an OB. I admit I don't know, though, since I've never seen him work with an OB.

A.

[Smokjbc]

Hi,

 

Just wanted to add, in defense of some other, not quite as fancy, "OBs", is that I've seen a fair number of mystery mixes, intentional herding/hound crosses, lots of BCX (usually with Aussie or ACD), that were outstanding dogs at very specialized, real work jobs. Not anything to the caliber of a well trained Border Collie, but then again- who wants to send their good dog into a semi truck of cattle to unload it when you have Lattie the Aussie mutt who will do it for you (and quite well and strangely, still has most her teeth after about 10 years). I know a cowboy who swore by his two (unfortunately now deceased) partners- a Catahoula rescued from a pound and a Pitbull cross who would catch wild cattle for him. Nothing we'd want or expect a Border Collie to do, and really has nothing to do with whether they were trained as a breed or individual. The point is more that they weren't trained much at all, but with a "go" and "stop" they could still handle some pretty impressive tasks. I think alot of so called "herding breeds" are dogs like this- once bred to be good at a specific task, but not ever considered an all around farm dog, or if so, not a farm dog used every day for multiple tasks. What the AKC herding world tries to do is make alot of these breeds into general herding dogs, when in fact they are more suited to specialized work and not meant to gather over a distance or pen sheep, etc. They might just be meant to run sheep through chutes (or most likely cattle), to guard sheep or maintain borders without actually moving sheep, to hold cattle while the cowboy with the rope shows up, etc. I think some mechanical training, if you are trying to turn a specialized breed into a general, all purpose herding dog, is necessary. Thats why I've found that the more sensitive, trainable dogs tend to do better than some of keener dogs, even if they have a little less instinct, they are more open to learning how to be an all around dog. I wish there were more ways for those breeds to be proved out as what they were intended to be, but so far it seems only Border Collies & Aussies (ASCA) have a set of trials specifically set out to test their respective breeds. And without a good general knowledge of what those breeds do, they are losing what footing they did have as useful dogs in real working situations. I do think there is a border-type (GSD type) trial system developing, but its still very infrequent and probably will always be since it requires a great number of stock to run ( I think its like a minimum of 20 head per dog, anyways the idea is to use a large flock).

 

 

Jaime

[blackacre]

Sure, I buy it Jaime, but since the border collie is the greatest all rounder that ever was or ever will be, why bother? Just between us, of course. I have reservations about training OB's too but it sure helps pay the hay bill.

A.

[Smokjbc]

LOL.... well we know that.. but whether that makes us snobs or just people with high standards- take your pick

 

I think the occasional biscuit eater has its value- not only can it occasionally be useful- but if you lose one to a working accident (actually most of the working accidents I know of involve pickup trucks) it won't be as hard to replace as your good Border Collie.

 

I am always having reservations about working with OBs, when I first started I had this idea that all these Border Collie people would come out of the woodwork- but apparently they are too busy doing flyball around here LOL. Instead I get alot of conformation people who want to get an AKC ROM, which requires some kind of working title. As soon as they get the title, they'll be done working their dog. Probably just as well.

 

 

Yes I'm a horrible Border Collie snob and proud of it.