working vs. sports Downs

[SS Cressa]

So I am an agility addict and know next to none about herding/working a dog on livestock. But was wondering: Ok a lot of Border Collies's on the start line creep. I am not even sure if they realize what they are doing. But it got me to thinking. How often is a dog "downed" while on sheep. Is it a joint down? As in to take pressure off the flock handler say's down but dogs already going down to realease pressure off stock. Who realeases the dog? Does the dog immeaditly move when the sheep left that senitive spot? or does it wait for handler command? And when it is down does it creep on the ground? I am wondering if part of teh Border Collie creep on the start isn't somehow in its geneitcs.

 

Cress: I can say down in any situation and she drops and won't move. I can say down while she is running for a toy and she will drop (while giving me a dirty look) and wait till I release. I normally will put the dogs on a stay and either trow a toy and no one moves. I can release just one for a toy while the other stay. I can take off running and they will stay. But on the start line she will creep ever so slightly but she still moves form the spot I left her. Agility IS work for Cress and she takes it very seriously. I am wondering if when I move out(lead out from teh start) it taking pressure off and she move accordingly to a better spot. (While I can't say for sure) i swear Cress generally have a better understanding of any course then her handler and she is very pressure sensitive.

[Mark Billadeau]

Generally, it means to stop moving, where stopping on the feet or must be on its belly depends on........

 

if the handler has a preference (down always = on belly or not).

if the dog has a preference.

if the dog is prone to being clappy/sticky.

if the dog's mind needs to be geared down by haing the dog on its belly.

if the handler has taught a stand (stop on feet).

if more pressure needs to be released by having the dog on the belly (dependent upon dog and sheep).

if the situation calls for the dog being able to quickly respond to the sheep (stop on feet).

how this dog "comes up" after stopped (some dogs come-up hard from their belly as compared to a stand).

[note: we may run a dog at a trial to work around flaws in the dog we are still training on at home]

 

This is one of the things I like about trialing; you're always needing to adabt how you run your dog depending upon how your dog is responding to your commands at that moment and how these particular sheep are reacting to how your dog is responding to your commands.

[juliepoudrier]

SSC,

I suspect the creep you see at agility trials is simply the dog's anticipation--it knows that when you move off, the next thing will be the release to start running the course. I'm not sure if it even relates to stock work at all.

 

I can say that the creeping or moving up when working is much more prevalent in my youngsters I'm starting than in my trained dogs, though it can happen with both. In all cases, it's usually because the stock start moving and the dog feels it needs to get up and move to also maintain control.

 

A dog that automatically lies itself down on stock is likely clappy and at least for me, I try to train a dog with such tendencies to stand only. There are other times when a dog may choose to lie itself down, and as Mark says because the work is fluid and in the moment, who chooses what (handler or dog) and why/how depends entirely on what the stock are doing and what the handler/dog team are trying to accomplish at that time.

 

J.

[muttlycrew]

I had a similar question when I started Stella on stock. When I ask her to down (off stock), she doesn't move until I release. When I ask her to down on stock, she will lie down and only move to 'fix' the sheep and get them back on balance. If I want her to down and not move, regardless of what the stock is doing I add the word stay, so my command becomes "Lie down stay". Her release from the stay is me giving a directional command.

 

When I first started her on stock it was weird to me not using my release word and my first question I asked my instructor was "If I ask Stella to lie down and she does and immediately gets up before being released, will this affect her in obedience/agility?" He reassured me that it wouldn't and that most dogs know the difference (assuming they have been taught). So far in the 3 months of training she hasn't confused down on stock vs down off stock.

 

As for the creeping, I agree with Julie in that it's more of the anticipation of wanting to go. I did read in August's Clean Run magazine them giving a sequence to run that talked a lot about pressure zones. But again, I think creeping on the start line or on contacts is more anticipation/excitement and possibly lack of understanding and maintaining the criteria.

[Rave]

The creeping is a training issue, not a genetic one. I've taught many a BC a start line stay and none have ever creeped or broken their stays.

[rushdoggie]

I will agree that a creep is from anticipation, but it is interesting the way a Border Collie creeps in the crouch-y position more than other dogs do.

[Rebecca, Irena Farm]

AGree with Rave and Julie. The creep means, as my mom would say, "My body is lying down, but in my mind I'm doing whatever I want to!" I prefer not to fix it with making the down "more firm" - ie, getting more stern about it (this increases tension and reduces trust between you). Rather I want to show the dog there's no point to breaking after I've asked for the behavior once.

 

For instance, we have a Jack Russell, probably beagle mix. Lots of natural impulse control there - not! She can easily clear the tall baby gate we've set up for the kitchen.

 

It became a nuisance because she's also easily capable of levitating to the counters from a standstill. Or the stove!

 

So when Jetta jumps the gate, I simply say, "uh, oh!" pick her up (she's about 17 pounds), and carry her to the back door. I smile and pat her while I'm carrying her and say cheerfully, "Bye bye!" when I put her outside.

 

This isn't control. She can immediately go around and through the front door, and be back at the gate in seconds.

 

The first time we did it three times in a row. Now she will do it if she Just. Can't. Resist. She gets the same response - in fact now she will go straight to the back door herself sometimes.

 

That's not to suggest the specific method here to solidify the start line behavior. Just to illustrate that I was letting Jetta decide on her own where her mental line was to be able to follow the rules.

 

I suspect there's a much finer balance between hell-bent-for-leather and handler attentiveness in agility than in stock work.

 

By the way, I teach a "down/stay" which has a hand signal, for around the house, and "lie down" (voice/whistle) on stock now. That way there's no crossover confusion, I hope.

[Gloria Atwater]

Hi SS ~

 

Mark detailed the working down pretty well. How often a sheepdog must down depends on countless variables, from the dog's working style to the type of sheep (wild or tame, skittish or heavy) and the terrain you're working in. A pushy dog may have to "down" more often than a softer-moving dog, and a softer or clappy dog may need to stay on its feet more so as to not appear weak, to the sheep. Whether that "down" actually means belly in the dirt or a standing stop depends on many other factors, including the dog's style of movement.

 

The handler is in charge of when the dog downs, but "down" on sheep does NOT always mean a rock-solid, don't-move-an-inch, obedience style down. Sometimes all the handler needs is a stop, just for an instant. Sometimes the stop just means, "Hey! Pay attention, there's a command I need you to take." And sometimes it dang sure means, "Stop moving and stay put until I tell you otherwise!"

 

Sometimes, yes, the dog will decide when he needs to down. A good dog can read that he needs to take pressure off the sheep and down himself before his handler tells him. A good dog may also sometimes break his down if the sheep do something that needs instantaneous correction. The human can't always react fast enough, so in such cases, the dog can be correct to break his down. But a working BC shouldn't be allowed to make too many of those decisions on his own, or he'll start thinking he should take charge all the time.

 

As for the border collie "creep," yes, it a style of going, a hallmark of the breed and to that extent it is genetic. Many border collies use that "creep" when walking up on sheep or making careful, slow, precise movements on their livestock. Not every border collie does it (my old Jesse works in a more upright manner,) but for other dogs, the "creep" is definitely a hereditary trait.

 

The creeping you're seeing, though, is probably just anticipation. In that case, it has less to do with genetics and more to do with your dog being a little naughty. If you don't want the creep, reinforce your down.

 

There. Have we confused you, yet?

Cheers ~

 

Gloria

[juliepoudrier]

a softer or clappy dog may need to stay on its feet more so as to not appear weak, to the sheep.

Not the actual point of the discussion, I know: Although I agree that a weaker dog may need to be kept on its feet so as not to appear weak to the stock, I disagree that a clappy dog must be kept on its feet so as not to appear weak. Most clappy dogs I know are clappy as a result of too much eye, and that eye is just fine for controlling/intimidating livestock and so the clap is rarely construed as weakness IME. The issue with a clappy dog is *getting the dog back up,* a problem that can allow the stock to move in a direction you don't want, but that the stock still don't necessarily equate with weakness in the dog, IMO.

 

J.

[Gloria Atwater]

Not the actual point of the discussion, I know: Although I agree that a weaker dog may need to be kept on its feet so as not to appear weak to the stock, I disagree that a clappy dog must be kept on its feet so as not to appear weak. Most clappy dogs I know are clappy as a result of too much eye, and that eye is just fine for controlling/intimidating livestock and so the clap is rarely construed as weakness IME. The issue with a clappy dog is *getting the dog back up,* a problem that can allow the stock to move in a direction you don't want, but that the stock still don't necessarily equate with weakness in the dog, IMO.

 

J.

 

 

Hi Julie ~

 

Your are right, of course, and I agree with you. I was over-simplifying in my reply, since I'm not sure how much the original poster knows about sheepdogging. My 1 yr old pup, Gael, occasionally is a bit clappy, though it's usually when we're working in a smaller field and I get the sense she's thinking, "Hey, why push? There's a fence right there and you've got 'em."

 

But getting her back on her feet is sometimes an issue, particularly when I *need* her to get up and push. The sheep respect her any time she moves, but if she sprouts roots and just stares at them, naturally they'll take advantage and drift wherever.

 

So, my omission is corrected. Thanks!

Cheers ~

 

Gloria