How to break sheep to dogs

[kelpiegirl]

Back to Julie P's comment regarding the sheep reading the dog's intent- that's a very very big part of it. Sheep can sort out dogs who need to be given a wider berth, versus those who do not, just about from the handlers post, and if not that, at the lift.

[bcnewe2]

When I watch how Robin behaves around the sheep, I am reminded of those nature programs where wolves are working the edge of a herd of elk or deer...slow, easy movements, looking for the weak one to pick off... Brodie is your straight forward sheepdog out to do an honest day's work, like his Mum and the sheep know it. I have the feeling they think RObin is looking for lunch.

 

See I read that different. What you described the wolf doing would be more like an outrun, slow (or not so slow) easy movements on the edge. A straight froward dog sounds like a dog going straight at the sheep, sure to make any sheep uneasy.

I think what's really happening is Brodie's "intent" is what keeps the sheep calm. Not where he is or exactly what he's doing, his energy so to speak. Where Robin's energy might have more intent. Like he might be going to "catch" a sheep for lunch. or just being confused in his role would send out confused energy hence the sheep getting edgy.

[ThunderHill]

Returning to the original post, what it takes to dog break a group of lambs (not mature sheep) is: a good handler, a good dog, a suitable working area... and time. Lots of time.

 

Enough time that the survivors eventually quit being lambs.

 

What might suit best in your situation would be to put the dogs up till your lessons. Instead, hone your own stock sense (most humans don't have the same natural gifts as a well-bred dog) by working available sheep yourselves. One human gets to be the handler, the other human gets to be the dog. Then reverse. I guarantee you'll emerge with a better grasp of the mechanics of balance, covering, draws, flight zones, pace and pressure bubbles; and you should also wind up with an acute personal appreciation of what you're going to be putting your dog through.

 

If you don't have sheep but you can round up a big enough group of humans, you can amuse yourself "dog-breaking" your friends. Designate dog, handler, and "stock." Handler gets to give basic directions to the dog. Nobody else gets to talk. (Or employ other higher language skills.) Now take your flock somewhere. Enjoy.

 

Liz (S yadda.yadda.yadda)

[kelpiegirl]

Has someone been to a Jan W clinic?

 

Returning to the original post, what it takes to dog break a group of lambs (not mature sheep) is: a good handler, a good dog, a suitable working area... and time. Lots of time.

 

Enough time that the survivors eventually quit being lambs.

 

What might suit best in your situation would be to put the dogs up till your lessons. Instead, hone your own stock sense (most humans don't have the same natural gifts as a well-bred dog) by working available sheep yourselves. One human gets to be the handler, the other human gets to be the dog. Then reverse. I guarantee you'll emerge with a better grasp of the mechanics of balance, covering, draws, flight zones, pace and pressure bubbles; and you should also wind up with an acute personal appreciation of what you're going to be putting your dog through.

 

If you don't have sheep but you can round up a big enough group of humans, you can amuse yourself "dog-breaking" your friends. Designate dog, handler, and "stock." Handler gets to give basic directions to the dog. Nobody else gets to talk. (Or employ other higher language skills.) Now take your flock somewhere. Enjoy.

 

Liz (S yadda.yadda.yadda)

[ThunderHill]

Nope.

[Little Bo Boop]

Tonight we did okay..almost stuck to the plan...Got the sheep in a nice tight circle (grain helps). There were three people and Daisy, the pups' Mom, who held the sheep on one side...DH had Brodie on a long line and he walked up slowly to about 30 feet,, laid down and held them on the other side with me stationed on the far side to be sure they didn't skedaddle that way... it was a perfect moment in time. Then a cricket sneezed or something, the sheep took off, Brodie lunged, pulling the lead out of DH's hand...and the whole thing feel apart...suddenly Brodie was doing his first outrun and we were all so mesmerized, we let him go and he was right on target, but the sheep split on him so that was not something I'd want to try again for awhile because the sheep aren't cooperating.. Bro did alright though, -- he went after the lone sheep and brought her back to where he thought the group was, but they'd all headed west on him...so the whole thing went to pieces, but he did bring the one sheep back. We won't be trying that again for awhile. Way too early for that! The pressure of having to pay such careful attention is quite brutal.

 

Robin did okay as well. When I brought him into the pasture, he saw the sheep beginning to move away and immediately laid down without even being asked, so they stopped and looked back at him. They respect him quite a bit more than they do Brodie because he looks so different. Something about those wolfish gold eyes... We worked a bit at that...move, lie down, everything quiet...working at keeping both him and the sheep calm... He stayed on the long line and will do so until I can get him in a smaller space. So it was a nice baby-step. My goal is to get the sheep and dogs calm enough so that the dogs can to move quietly around the sheep...and these flighty little gals are a challenge for the dogs impulse control...At least both the boys and are are achieving some comfort level around sheep. The most important thing, I think, is that I am learning about sheep, and about the different styles of the two dogs.

 

I'm sure its all contrary from the usual training progression and I'm probably doing it all wrong from a professional handler's standpoint, but this is what we have to work with for now, and so must make do with what we have and try to not mess them up too much before real training starts...after Nationals...

 

Not to be mean, but this post speaks volumes. It is clear to me (and I'm assuming others as well) that you are in over your head. I don't think you have the Big picture, when it comes to stock/sheep work, and that's not a slam on you, this stuff takes a while to figure out ;-) I think you'd be well served in re-reading Julie P's post...especially the part about getting into/starting bad habits for your dogs as well as your sheep. I know a couple of months seems like a long time, but if you can't get in with a trainer, maybe you could just go out to an established handlers place and just watch and learn? Just watching someone do chores would probabaly go a long way in teaching you the proper way to handle dogs and sheep. Once again, no one is slamming you, wanting to get out and do things' right now' ;-) is human nature, but if you think you might be in this for the long haul, and it's not just a passing fancy, you might just want to sit back and rethink things a little. Just my 2 cents ;-)

 

Betty

[bcnewe2]

What might suit best in your situation would be to put the dogs up till your lessons. Instead, hone your own stock sense (most humans don't have the same natural gifts as a well-bred dog) by working available sheep yourselves. One human gets to be the handler, the other human gets to be the dog. Then reverse. I guarantee you'll emerge with a better grasp of the mechanics of balance, covering, draws, flight zones, pace and pressure bubbles; and you should also wind up with an acute personal appreciation of what you're going to be putting your dog through.

 

If you don't have sheep but you can round up a big enough group of humans, you can amuse yourself "dog-breaking" your friends. Designate dog, handler, and "stock." Handler gets to give basic directions to the dog. Nobody else gets to talk. (Or employ other higher language skills.) Now take your flock somewhere. Enjoy.

 

I did that once at a clinic. A MC clinic. I was the only smart a** that had a hand ful of grain so the sheep followed me around where ever I went.

[ThunderHill]

I did that once at a clinic. A MC clinic. I was the only smart a** that had a hand ful of grain so the sheep followed me around where ever I went.

 

See? Stock Sense 101! Excellent. :-)

 

Liz-yadda

[Pippin's person]

I'd definitely second and third the suggestion to work on your own stock sense before you try to train your dogs--particularly if you are going to be working lambs (as an aside, you might find it easier to raise the lambs up and then have someone with a trained dog break them for you--I think others have suggested the same).

 

I think I learned more in a couple afternoons of moving sheep around a field on my own (particularly about holding a line ) than many months of working the dog. It also helps you remember to pay attention to the sheep more so than the dog (or I should say to give 90% of your attention to the sheep and the other 10% to the dog).

[kelpiegirl]

We did this at a clinic, and I found it pretty helpful for showing a me (a complete newbie) what it was to move sheep/dog etc. We also moved sheep with two people... Where did you learn this technique?

 

Nope.

[Stoga]

Another good one, Julie! Thanks from one of the many the benefit from the time, effort, caring, and experience you put into your posts.

 

Here, here! Thanks Julie...

[Sue R]

Liz,

As an open handler and a trainer I can tell you that I would rather take on a dog who's a blank slate than one that someone has tried to "prepare" for the work when the person doing the preparing isn't well-versed in the work or even in the stock to begin with. The dogs someone has put poor training on or much more difficult to deal with than the ones that have no training. It's your trainer's job to train or help you train the dog. You won't make their job any easier or save yourself money if you are doing the wrong things beforehand.

This is *so important*, combined with educating yourself about moving stock (you're the dog!), and having the patience to wait for those lessons where you can get a good, solid foundation put on you and your dog both. JMO.

 

You've got a great resource lined up so let your dogs be dogs and not sheepdogs yet, work on understanding the stock yourself, and be ready for October! Best wishes!

[ejano]

Thank you all for sharing your knowledge and experience to help us off to a good start. I've been rereading the thread, taking it all in and Thunderhill's suggestion for building stock sense brought to mind a long ago experience -- on my way to English Lit, I took a side trip through Communication Theory...At the beginning of one of the classes, one of the instructors used a "ice breaker" communication awareness exercise - we were to pair up and take turns directing a visually challenged person from point A to Point B across the campus quadrangle-- I got a lucky draw...my partner had a sibling who was blind, so she was excellent at directing me. When it was my turn, well...we were lucky we didn't end up in the fountain...

 

Between now and October, I'll be working at figuring out how to stay out of the fountain...

 

Thanks, all.

 

Liz

 

What might suit best in your situation would be to put the dogs up till your lessons. Instead, hone your own stock sense (most humans don't have the same natural gifts as a well-bred dog) by working available sheep yourselves. One human gets to be the handler, the other human gets to be the dog. Then reverse. I guarantee you'll emerge with a better grasp of the mechanics of balance, covering, draws, flight zones, pace and pressure bubbles; and you should also wind up with an acute personal appreciation of what you're going to be putting your dog through.

[Gloria Atwater]

Hi Liz ~

 

I'm late to this discussion so I can only say, good on ya! It sounds like you've hit on a good plan.

 

At this stage of the game, I can only agree that just letting your dogs be dogs until you are ready to start sheepdog training IS the best move I can think of. Of course you can continue doing ordinary stuff like working on your downs and walking quietly on leash, just to make sure the habit of obedience is there.

 

However, don't be surprised if your dogs turn to chimpanzees the first few times you take them to lessons. I can't count the times I've seen some poor dismayed new handler saying, "But he's so well-behaved at home!" If that happens, just keep being patient and firm, and time will take care of the rest.

 

As for dog-breaking spring lambs ... honestly, you can't tame green sheep with green dogs. There are few things more horrifying than a frantic sheep slamming full-speed into a fence, with an over-excited dog on its tail. Getting your own lambs sounds great, but you want to be careful, or all you'd end up with are sheep who've learned to run from dogs - and slam into or over fences. I'd strongly advise inviting someone who has a well-trained dog who is kind to lambs. The lambs need to learn that the human is the safe place to be and that the dog is in control.

 

If this is too much preaching, I do apologise! I promise I mean well, and I know you've already had more advice than you probably wanted. Enjoy your dogs and I hope you'll report your adventures when you start training in the fall.

Cheers ~

 

Gloria