Herding question

[john wilhelm]

First a little background on myself, beings I have never properly introduced myself to the list. (lurked for about a year before I joined the list) Male in my mid 50's, returned to the farm after being away for 35 years. Have returned to help my father farm (too stubborn to retire). Presently do not have a border collie, but did have one that I got from a shelter, but unfortunetly lost him in an accident. Never got to the point with Bud to where we could try herding, but I really don't think that he had herding genes in him anyway. I really have no herding experience with dogs.

 

So now to my real question. We have an 80 acre pasture with two cows and their young calves (about 150lbs each) and one other calf that is about 700 lbs. One of the cows and the three calves are fairly gentle, but the other cow is wild as a march hare. We need to get the cattle into the barn lot to load and move them. However, everytime we try, the one that is wild heads for the hills, thus spooking the others and they are impossible to drive into the barn lot. So for all you herders out their will a border collie be able to handle a situation like this? In other words would the dog be able to get the cows and calves into the barn lot? How good of a dog would you need for these type situations, would you need a really top quality (open quality) dog to accomplish this or would a lesser dog be able to handle this? For all you non-herders (but do have some cattle experience) out there, if you have an idea of how to handle our little delema, fire away. The cattle are pretty gentle when you are not trying to drive them. We can get within 15 feet of them when we take a bucket of feed to them, but they will not feed bucket herd. Any help would be greatly appreciated.

 

Thanks,

 

John

[Rebecca, Irena Farm]

I tried my dog out on a similiar situation - except there were about 50 cow-calf pairs, but really there were only a few trouble makers. It's really hard for a dog that's not seen cows before to start cold on mamas with calves, especially if the job is to put them where they think they are being threatened. What we ended up doing was driving them to an open field where they could settle down and let us do our business there. All I let my dog do was contain them loosely - he was good for streaking out and preventing a quick getaway across the wrong creek once, for instance. But mostly he was just another warm body. There were some freaky heifers in there that moved in ways I didn't know cows could move and I didn't want him to be a part of it.

 

A couple of experienced dogs could have done the job. Maybe. I got the feeling that moving cows on a commercial operation was like playing ping-pong with marbles and toothpicks. But I know lots of people who do it well. If this were a need in my life I'd contact someone who had a well-run farm and used dogs to run it, and get a dog from them.

[Guest totallyterry2003]

If you need to move the cattle now....buying a dog will not help. It is going to take awhile for you to learn to handle even a trained dog that you would buy. You also will need to learn to read cattle. If you don't know what you are doing, you could put a dog in danger from the wild cow.

 

If the cow is really wild ask around your neighborhood, there must be a beef producer that has a dog or dogs that you could hire to help you. There may even be someone with a horse that has experience in loading the cattle.

 

Do you have loading chutes, etc.?

 

I don't know much about cattle but couldn't you leave some grain in the barnyard and when they come to eat it, shut the gate? How good are your barnyard fences?

[john wilhelm]

My question about a dog being able to handle a situation like this was for future reference, rather than an intention to run out and buy a dog right now to solve this particular problem. I do not believe that anyone in our county is using dogs to handle cattle. We have checked with a couple of horse people and they thought the only solution would be to rope the cow and they were not interested as they are getting older and did not want to risk injury. Tranquilizing, I suppose is a possibility, as well as just shooting her and making hamburger out of her. We can get them to come into the barn lot to eat, but beings the lot is not on the homestead we can't just look out the window and see when they are in the lot. We have not had any luck in catching them in the lot and when we do they take off as soon as they see us coming. I have tried hiding in the barn, but they have not come in the lot while I was there. We suspect they are coming to the feed by smell, I wonder if they could also be smelling my presence.

 

Back to the dog question, I thought I had read on this forum that it was usually a tough situation for a dog to handle one cow, sheep, or whatever rather than several or a herd. Was this just for young inexperienced dogs or does this apply to any dog, including those that would be capable of competing in say national finals?

 

John

[toney]

Normally, it is more difficult to handle one animal- be it cow, sheep or goat. That applies to people on foot working the animals as well- two or three animals seem to move easier than one who just KNOWS you're going to eat him if you get near him- and there isn't any other animal around to sacrifice in his place, either. Certainly, there are dogs that can handle your situation, but it will require an experienced cattle dog and will require dog breaking all your cattle. No, it probably won't require a National Finals qualifying dog, but it will require a dog that knows what he's doing and a handler who knows his job and how to help the dog. I've had to work splitter cattle throughout my life and they're a pain at the best of times. It's a lot of work for the dog to control a cow that breaks- he has to convince her to turn and stick with the others, when it's the last thing she wants to do or is used to doing. Her idea is to leave everyone else as a snack for the thing she perceives as a predator and head for the hills. If you're thinking about getting a dog, make sure you contact someone who has cattledogs and get a trained one. It would be too much for a pup or young dog just learning his job.

[haflingerrider]

John,

I went to a clinic last fall. They worked cattle there. The owner of the farm and the clinician stated that they had to break the cattle to dogs. They went out every day with very well trained dogs and moved the cattle from field to arena. It was a chasing situation every day until the catle came to respect the dogs, from what I was told. I also asked about the same question you have asked about the type dog I would need to work our cattle. They told me that it is about impossible to work a herd, even a small one with one dog, especially if the cattle are not dog broke. I do understand the part about being dog broke. Our cattle are 4 wheeler broke. When we get a rougey cow (usualy at calving) that we can't drive to the barn... we get out the 4 wheeler. We have chased cows all around the field and after several trips to the other end, they are tired enough to listen to reason. We have had them walk into the lot with tongues hanging out. Sounds mean but the next time you try to drive that cow, she will usually let you drive her. If not you go get the 4 wheeler and I tell you she will almost start to the pen herself!! That is what they mean by being broke.

 

We keep 70 head of brood cows and have found that the best way to keep cattle tame is to hand feed them ground corn. If you feed your cattle every day for the next 2 weeks, in the lot. You eventually will have an opportunity to slam that gate shut and have 'em. Or if you have "good fence" get some teenage boys to chase them around with 4 wheelers till they get ready to listen to reason If you have alot of valleys, trees or poor fence... this WILL NOT WORK! We happen to have a 60 acre field with good fence and nary a tree or hill.

 

Another thing too. I truly believe one cow that is a rouge will ruin your entire herd. Not only will her offspring behave like her but insanity is catching. She throws her tail up and runs, so will all the others. When we wean the heifers we want to keep, we pen them up in the barn and hand feed them all winter. They get used to trotting up to the bunk for feed from your hand (actually a bucket). Then when you turn them out to be bred the folowing June, all you have to do is rattle a bucket of grain and you have insant attention. They will come running from the farthest point of the pasture. After several years of raising heifers this way, you have a pretty tame herd.

 

Good luck! Of coures you can always shoot her! Burgers are good