Willful disobedience

[Root Beer]

Perhaps it would have been less “rather beautiful” if there had been a bus heading in his direction.

 

Had there been any possibility whatsoever of a bus going through there, he would not have been playing in that area, regardless of the strength of his recall, which is very good. Not quite as solid as Dean's, but good enough that I would trust him to be in an area where there are cars. But he would not be turned loose at play like that in such an area.

[geonni banner]

Had there been any possibility whatsoever of a bus going through there, he would not have been playing in that area, regardless of the strength of his recall, which is very good. Not quite as solid as Dean's, but good enough that I would trust him to be in an area where there are cars. But he would not be turned loose at play like that in such an area.

 

I have no doubt that you would never expose your dog to what you considered to be a dangerous situation. But that isn't what I was trying to discuss. By your own admission Speedy refused to come when you called him. What I was wondering was did you issue a formal recall, or did you simply invite him to accompany you down the hill?

 

It isn't about whether you are a good trainer or sufficiently careful with your dog's safety. I'm sorry if you thought it was. It isn't even about how well trained Speedy is. I was wondering if he didn't come because he was invited to come rather than given a command to come. If the former, I would say no, he wasn't disobedient. If the latter, then well, yes, in that case, he refused a recall. Many people don't train for both an invitation and a formal recall. They simply don't make the distinction. I find it useful to do so. I wondered if you (and anyone else reading this) does too.

 

As I said, I too enjoy watching dogs become wrapped up in watching/smelling/generally being absorbed in something they find fascinating, and that is why I teach two ways of summoning my dog - the imperative one for when I need/ want her to come right now, and the "when you get around to it" one for when it isn't really so important and lollygagging is allowed.

[Root Beer]

I have no doubt that you would never expose your dog to what you considered to be a dangerous situation. But that isn't what I was trying to discuss. By your own admission Speedy refused to come when you called him. What I was wondering was did you issue a formal recall, or did you simply invite him to accompany you down the hill?

 

I would consider the recall that I used somewhere in between. It is the normal recall that I use at home to call him in from playing or from using the bathroom. Under normal circumstances, it is sufficient to bring forth the response that I intend - him coming when called. I would definitely consider a recall in competition more "formal".

 

It wasn't really an invitation, but it wasn't a formal competition recall, nor an "emergency recall", either. I would use an "emergency recall" when there is danger. He knows it from the sound of my voice - it's not really something that is trained to be "stronger" or more reliable. That is reserved for times when an unfriendly dog is approaching, or a car is coming.

 

My original point, though, wasn't really to make the distinction between different types of recalls, but to point out that his choice to stay put instead of coming when called had absolutely nothing to do with him trying to undermine me in some way. The reason he stayed there was about him, not me.

 

Based on what I've seen in my own dogs and with others, they certainly do decide to do something other than what they have been directed to do by a human. Often I see a very good reason for doing so on the part of the dog. Sometimes the lack of response can be attributed to training. Often there is a reason, though, that is outside of the handler and has more to do with the dog himself. Personally, I never attribute it to the dog trying to undermine, though. Not saying you were - it has come up in the course of the discussion, though.

[flyer]

I'm in the absolutely not camp.

 

Mr. Snappy and SDR have written a number of excellent reasons I believe this.

 

Dogs operate on an emotional energetic level. They do not reason things out so they cannot be willful.

[geonni banner]

I'm in the absolutely not camp.

 

Mr. Snappy and SDR have written a number of excellent reasons I believe this.

 

Dogs operate on an emotional energetic level. They do not reason things out so they cannot be willful.

 

 

While I agree with you that dogs don't disobey orders, break rules or refuse commands to "piss anyone off," or any other malicious reason, I do believe that they sometimes do so because there is a stronger motivation to do something else, or else they don't understand what is expected of them. I'm not sure what you mean by "an emotional energetic level."

 

Willful is defined as 1- (of a bad or harmful act) deliberate. 2- stubborn and determined.

 

Dogs are capable of both stubbornness and determination. And in fact, can and do disobey commands deliberately. (Often, as has been pointed out, for very good reasons - like the Border Collie that refused a recall and was found in the company of a lamb and ewe that were separated from their flock.) But dogs can also deliberately do "bad" things, like steal your prime-rib dinner off the counter. This does not make the dog bad or evil, but provided the dog has been taught to leave food on the counter alone, and has demonstrated a thorough understanding on this injunction, it certainly qualifies as "willful disobedience." (Whether the owner is also guilty for placing such a strong temptation to disobey before the dog is another matter.) In this case, the dog does not steal your dinner because it will make you angry, it does it in spite of the fact that you may be supposed to get angry.

 

But you lose me when you say that dogs cannot reason. They certainly can. I can show several examples of fairly complex reasoning by dogs, as can many others. I had a Collie named Treve that defeated the gate latch on my back yard to bring my Doberman bitch Rosie to the vet - by himself - when she had badly cut her foot. I retraced the blood-trail for many blocks of busy city streets, from the vet's to my back yard where a broken glass had cut her pad. Treve never opened that latch before that day or after it. He knew where the vet's was - I worked there. But he never took it upon himself to go there before or after the incident. Moreover, a shopkeeper with whom I was friends saw the dogs on their way to the vet's. He said that Treve led and Rosie followed him. He also told me that he saw the dogs stop and wait to cross a street until the traffic light was with them.

 

And then there was my neighbor's pit bull, who when left in and unfamiliar yard (mine) while his owner went to do an errand, cast his eyes around the yard and without hesitation jumped to the top of a dog house, thence to the top of a shed, along a 2x4 fence rail, down to a garbage can and back to his owner's house three doors down. I watched and followed him. He curled up on the door mat with the clear intention of waiting for his owner. I leashed him and took him back to my place, and kept him indoors until his owner returned.

His owner had left him with me so he could play with my dogs. They had met before on the street, and were acquainted, but Buster had never been in my yard before. He was presented with a confinement he did not wish to endure and he looked at the topography and reasoned a path by which he could escape.

 

These dogs both showed their ability to reason out a problem. These are not made-up "Lassie stories." They are actual events that I witnessed. In any case I fail to see how the lack of reason would prevent a dog from behaving deliberately, stubbornly or with determination. I have had aquarium fish that could demonstrate all three of these attributes, and whether or not they had the ability to reason is open to debate.

[border_collie_crazy]

ya I believe they do...Rusty sure does anyway! Rusty honest to gawd makes a point of screwing with my mom. for example...one day my mom was in the yard and Rusty ran around barking and completly blowing her off, she finally got frusterated and threw the shovel in his direction..Rust left in a huff, marched into the house, broke down the baby gate to go upstairs(off limits) went into my moms room, pulled all her blakets and pillows into a pile, pee'd on them, went back down found my mom, planted his feet in front of her and barked in her face before huffing off to his crate. Im sorry but pulling all that off took a LOT of effort on his part, that was no "whoops, Im confused"

[geonni banner]

ya I believe they do...Rusty sure does anyway! Rusty honest to gawd makes a point of screwing with my mom. for example...one day my mom was in the yard and Rusty ran around barking and completly blowing her off, she finally got frusterated and threw the shovel in his direction..Rust left in a huff, marched into the house, broke down the baby gate to go upstairs(off limits) went into my moms room, pulled all her blakets and pillows into a pile, pee'd on them, went back down found my mom, planted his feet in front of her and barked in her face before huffing off to his crate. Im sorry but pulling all that off took a LOT of effort on his part, that was no "whoops, Im confused"

 

This isn't disobedience, (well, it was that too) this was revenge! I had a similar experience with a house-guest and a cat years ago. Very similar scenario. The cat was teased and pestered, and immediately after he went to the guest's sleeping bag, crawled down to the bottom and took a huge dump. I told him to leave (the house guest) and take his stinky sleeping bag with him. My roommates and I were in stitches.

[desertranger]

After reading this thread a couple of times I'm ready to answer.

 

Do border collies exhibit willful disobedience?

 

DW says yes. Case in point my last BC named Basil. Depending on who was issuing an instruction he would stand there and refuse to do as instructed. Additionally if you insisted on his doing it he would start to argue with you while stamping his feet. And as if that was not enough he had to have the last word just before he would walk off in a huff.

 

Jin's jut as bad. He plays stupid mind games. Things he wants to do. Mind you they do not interfere with his work. If I send him for a medicine bottle he gets it. But if he brings me a ball he may or may not want to give it to me. As for recall obedience, it's getting better but there are times when I issue a recall and wh looks at me then will do something else, go lay in a mud hole, get a ball he left in the field. DW also says he looks at you and plays dumb. "Jin, pick up the ball" You get the head tilt and "Say what?" From a more serious point of view it means if he's wild searching for a ball it may take a few minutes for me to get his attention back to me so I can give him a down before setting him on course for the ball.

 

I shall also say I have given him instructions like go to that field in gate 'A', fetch object, exit gate 'B' then return. I've seen him wait and look at the problem before executing it. Then do all of the parts of the exercise in a manner he chooses. . BCs have a lot of latitude in their work. As an SD Jin is supposed to enter the house and clear it first. Instead quite on his own volition he turns on the hall lights first then checks the house and not always in the same order. I didn't teach him that. He's supposed to check the house form the back to the front. Instead he seem to do it at random and it's never the same twice in a row. Don't ask me why, that's how he does it. Wilful disobedience I don't think so. Just a dog thinking about his work.

[MrSnappy]

Ok, ok. The garbage CAN, dustbin, pail, receptacle. The container in which garbage is usually stored in the average kitchen/bathroom. I think that's what most people mean when they say "the garbage." In the case outlined: My garbage can. In my house. That's what I meant by "the garbage." OK?

 

Ummm - what makes you think I'm addressing you specifically? I don't understand your use of shocking googly faces or explanations about what your garbage can "means". I think I actually brought the garbage issue up as an example, and I'm expanding on it in the context of the discussion. I'm not even really sure what all the emphasis is all about - FTR, I was not speaking to you.

 

But I will address Dixie_Chick's example - if my dog takes the ball and lies down with it instead of bringing it back when I throw it, I assume she's tired or hot and doesn't want me to throw it again because then she will feel obligated to go get it again, despite how she feels. I'd say that's an example of OBEDIENCE, not willful disobedience - she knows she is supposed to retrieve a ball and if she interrupts the sequence of throw-chase-pick up-retrieve it's not because she's decided not to do what I say, it's because she's trying to tell me she needs a break the only way she knows how. She likes playing ball, and brings it back 95% of the time, and she knows the crux of the game is that if she brings it to me, I throw it ... so she must have a reason for the other 5% of the time and I really don't think it's because she's being willful. If anything, she's pausing HER game. After all, I don't throw a ball of any other reason other than for someone to chase it.

 

What I really don't understand is why a dog had to be either a robot or a willful creature, like there is no in-between. I think dogs can be sentient, intelligent and thoughtful beings and STILL not be out to undermine our requests. I would even argue that if you say your dog would never like you to be angry at him, and that him bringing back a ball is not that important to you so you'd never be angry about it, and you therefore don't do anything about it, then if he's not laying down with the ball because he's tired he's probably doing it because he doesn't think it's a command he *has* to follow. After all, you don't insist he does, so isn't that really about how much effort (ie little to none) you've put in to making him understand that he is always to bring the ball back to you?

 

RDM

[Olivia]

I agree with RDM here about the ball throwing. All of my dogs will at some point in the fetch game stop and lie down. They know very well that the game is "human throws the ball and I bring it back so they'll do it again". I have no doubt in the world that they know this. They love it and are extremely happy to do it. So when one of them lies down on the retrieve I assume they are hot or just need or want a break. If I keep playing with the others at some point the dog that is lying down will hop up and come back to the game, bringing the ball along. Then another might need a break. Etc.

 

During the lying down I can insist that they bring the ball back but they will just lie down again on the next retrieve. I know I need a break while exercising so why can't the dogs? They know when they need to stop; and even if they don't really need to and just want a break why shouldn't they have one?

 

The only time I insist they bring back or keep going is if we are ending the game and I want them to bring the ball or themselves on in so we can pack up and head home or inside. They are happy to comply with this if I ask.

 

The only willful disobedience I've ever seen out of my dogs is during sheep work ("stupid human, if I 'come bye' the sheep will escape... fine! There go your sheep... happy now?") and during some SAR work.

[Dixie_Girl]

RDM, In my example, I did say that when he is playing ball, and he is hot/tired, he will lie down with the ball, and I do leave him be. This is a case of words not being capable of presenting the picture the same as if you witnessed it. When he chooses not to bring the ball, on rare occasions, there is a distinct difference than when he is simply too tired/hot to run any longer. I just don't believe that a dog who can think and make decisions on their own, would NOT willfully disobey on occasion. When sheep dogs were sent over hill and yonder, they HAD to make decisions on their own regarding bringing the sheep back. I don't understand how you can know this is inbred into dogs, yet believe they are incapable of some days making decisions on their own regardless of what you are asking them. I do not believe it is done to annoy us, but to assert their ability to make decisions. I am sure they are not thinking this exactly, but I dont' know how to put it into dog-speak. And he doesn't lie down with the ball, he simply won't bring it back onto the porch. He will drop it on the ground, and stand there looking at me. When he does this, he will look at the ball then at me, etc. He knows what I want, he doesn't "forget". But sometimes he chooses not to do so. I will either bring him in, and play with just Skip, or put him in a lie down and throw a few times for just Skip. Either way, when he is allowed back at play, he brings the ball back to the porch every time. I dont' have a clue as to the "real" reason he does this. I don't believe he goes stupid all of a sudden, for short bursts, I don't believe he is trying to piss me off. Perhaps he is trying to engage me in a new game he has thought up between his planning for world domminance and I just haven't caught on yet. And, yes, I do get what you said about it's "importance" level, and I do agree with that. But, regardless of importance, he still knows what I want, and still chooses otherwise. Willful disobedience does not have to mean malicious disobedience. It is just choosing to do what he wants instead of what I want.

 

I think that if the reward is greater than the punishment, most dogs will choose the reward. But if they are choosing, then they are willfully disobeying what they know you want. Any time choosing is involved there will be variences in what will happen. Sometimes, most times, it's what we want, on occasion it is what they want.

[geonni banner]

RDM, In my example, I did say that when he is playing ball, and he is hot/tired, he will lie down with the ball, and I do leave him be. This is a case of words not being capable of presenting the picture the same as if you witnessed it. When he chooses not to bring the ball, on rare occasions, there is a distinct difference than when he is simply too tired/hot to run any longer. I just don't believe that a dog who can think and make decisions on their own, would NOT willfully disobey on occasion. When sheep dogs were sent over hill and yonder, they HAD to make decisions on their own regarding bringing the sheep back. I don't understand how you can know this is inbred into dogs, yet believe they are incapable of some days making decisions on their own regardless of what you are asking them. I do not believe it is done to annoy us, but to assert their ability to make decisions. I am sure they are not thinking this exactly, but I dont' know how to put it into dog-speak. And he doesn't lie down with the ball, he simply won't bring it back onto the porch. He will drop it on the ground, and stand there looking at me. When he does this, he will look at the ball then at me, etc. He knows what I want, he doesn't "forget". But sometimes he chooses not to do so. I will either bring him in, and play with just Skip, or put him in a lie down and throw a few times for just Skip. Either way, when he is allowed back at play, he brings the ball back to the porch every time. I dont' have a clue as to the "real" reason he does this. I don't believe he goes stupid all of a sudden, for short bursts, I don't believe he is trying to piss me off. Perhaps he is trying to engage me in a new game he has thought up between his planning for world domminance and I just haven't caught on yet. And, yes, I do get what you said about it's "importance" level, and I do agree with that. But, regardless of importance, he still knows what I want, and still chooses otherwise. Willful disobedience does not have to mean malicious disobedience. It is just choosing to do what he wants instead of what I want.

 

I think that if the reward is greater than the punishment, most dogs will choose the reward. But if they are choosing, then they are willfully disobeying what they know you want. Any time choosing is involved there will be variences in what will happen. Sometimes, most times, it's what we want, on occasion it is what they want.

 

Yes!

[Shetlander]

I think that if the reward is greater than the punishment, most dogs will choose the reward. But if they are choosing, then they are willfully disobeying what they know you want. Any time choosing is involved there will be variences in what will happen. Sometimes, most times, it's what we want, on occasion it is what they want.

 

An instructor and friend I trained with for years often said that dogs don't think in terms of rignt/wrong but rather safe/unsafe. He used to say that dogs are natural born gamblers, as well.

 

 

I believe Quinn thinks in terms of fun/no fun. Like when he was a youngster and thought keepaway was a wonderful variation to our games of fetch. Until I brought out the long line or even cheerfully told him it was time to quit <gasp!>. I must seem like a big spoilsport at times, I'm sure.

[Maralynn]

He used to say that dogs are natural born gamblers, as well.

 

So true and it made me laugh!! Last week Kipp succumb to the temptation of chasing a cat. He picked the wrong one -feisty ol' PJ She snarled and slapped him and he quickly came back to me. The following day I was out with him and we came across PJ again. He looked at her and she stared back at him. I could see the wheels turning in his head as he weighed his options then quickly turned and trotted back over to me.

[desertranger]

Dixie has a point./ Jin does the same thing. If he's hot and tired he lies down in the coolest spot he can find. I've learned to wait and wouldn't call it willful disobedience. Jis does exhibit that on occasion. Mostly when he find the garage door open and he wanders to the church. He doesn't always want to come home since he's having a good time. When he's upset he also tries to make for he church and then the wash. Getting him to return is a joke and he'll plain refuse. I think I know the reason he does this and slowly we are making progress to his not doing it.

 

I don't think BCs are willfully disobedient. I just think they have their own reasons for not doing something.

[juliepoudrier]

Linda's comments to this thread got me thinking (always dangerous) about playing with our dogs. And maybe this should be the subject of a separate thread, but as I was jogging with the dogs this morning it occurred to me that when I play with my dogs I look at it as, well, play, in which they have some "say" in how the game goes (vs. an actual game, for example, flyball, where there are rules that need to be followed to compete successfully). There are times when Ranger brings his deflated basketball on our walks. I will kick it for him to fetch and most of the time he brings it back to me to kick again, but sometimes he (or one of the other dogs) will grab it and run in the other direction. I don't view that as disobedience to the game; after all, it's supposed to be fun for the dog, and if the dog decides that running off with the ball is fun, who am I to correct/punish the dog for that? Likewise if I have dogs fetching balls in a pond. It's supposed to be *fun* for *them.* Jill habitually will bring the ball within a few feet of shore and then drop it and come on out of the water. Yes, it can be a bit annoying from the POV of me getting hold of the ball to throw it again, but since it's supposed to be her fun time, I wouldn't dream of correcting/punishing her for not bringing the ball all the way back. Instead I have another dog who is trained to go collect balls/toys on command. I guess it sort of boggles my mind that an activity that's supposed to be for the dog's entertainment would be turned into something where the human considers the dog to be disobedient and then sees a need to correct/punish the dog for that disobedience. They're dogs. Shouldn't we take into account what they might view as fun when we're playing with them (within reason of course)? It would be like sending a toddler to her room because we were rolling a ball between us (the game) and then at some point she decides to grab the ball and toddle off with it. Am I in the minority on this?

 

J.

[mbc1963]

They're dogs. Shouldn't we take into account what they might view as fun when we're playing with them (within reason of course)? It would be like sending a toddler to her room because we were rolling a ball between us (the game) and then at some point she decides to grab the ball and toddle off with it. Am I in the minority on this?

 

I absolutely agree - and almost sat down to type up something like this yesterday, but I got hot and tired and didn't feel like playing anymore.

 

Most of my day with my dog, he gets a lot of say in what he does: where to lie, how many times to fetch the ball before he goes to lie under the Forsythia, whether he sniffs the leaf for one minute or three when we're out in the woods. There are very few things that I demand that he do. I'd guess I spend 95% of the day letting Buddy do what he wants. The last 5% of time when I do give commands, it's when we're in situations that require structure: walk over HERE to cross the road, WAIT LIE DOWN in the path because there's a horse coming, STAY so I can go pat that dog you hate, ENOUGH barking at the kids outside.

 

I expect my dog to listen to me when I give required commands. I guess I use a different tone of voice - he rarely fails to do what I ask. I think most of us probably play "live and let live" most of the time, and only get authoritative in very specific situations. (Obviously, working dogs are in a different category.)

 

Mary

[Shetlander]

I guess it sort of boggles my mind that an activity that's supposed to be for the dog's entertainment would be turned into something where the human considers the dog to be disobedient and then sees a need to correct/punish the dog for that disobedience. They're dogs. Shouldn't we take into account what they might view as fun when we're playing with them (within reason of course)?

 

I see what you're saying. Maybe I'm a control freak (though I really don't have the attention span for that). Really, I think I'm like Mary and at least 95% of the time my dogs are doing pretty much what they want to. But then again, that is within certain parameters. I expect house manners and yard manners for that matter. Anyway, I have also set some parameters for fetch. It is an activity Quinn adores, second only to working sheep. As a youngster, he brought some variations to the game I didn't care for. Hurtling into my midsection upon returning the ball/Frisbee, tugging after I told him to release, playing keep away. Those were all things he found tremendously fun but I found either painful or simply not fun.

 

As the person providing his entertainment when I could be doing lots of other things, I figure I get to set some ground rules in our play. For example, tugging by itself or as part of fetch is fun for both of us, but the rules in place (release when told, no teeth on skin, tug only when asked) are there for my comfort and safety. I had to take a few months off from Frisbee last year due to a bad case of Border Collie Elbow which came partly from Quinn repeatedly tugging instead of releasing the Frisbee. It was my fault for not enforcing that particular rule.

 

So yeah, I dote on Quinn and am out there throwing balls and Frisbees in all kinds of weather and times of day for his Lordship. But I have a few rules I expect to be followed. If he doesn't follow the rules, I usually respond with a consequence (might be a 10 second stop in the game, a verbal correction, or even ending the game). Often, I figure he is ready for a break anyway at that point anyway. And if he ever lies down, I always assume he needs a break. Given his heat intolerance I work hard to stop before that happens during the warm months.

 

However, Quinn totally, absolutely agrees with you, Julie. He has been giving me "You're mean... and stoopid" looks since he was a small pup and I found ways to spoil his fun. He is very long suffering.

[juliepoudrier]

Liz,

I think the things you describe fall under my "within reason" comment. I wouldn't want a dog hurtling into my stomach or grabbing my hand instead of the tug toy. But ISTM that if you're playing fetch and the dog fails to return the ball it's not a capital offense. I guess I just choose to exert control over my dogs under different circumstances and let them widen the parameters during play, as long as no one's getting hurt. We have so much control over so much of our dogs' lives that I just like them to have control at times too.

 

J.

[bcnewe2]

In in Julie's camp on this one. Besides, unless there's a real reason of need, I think allot of the time my dog won't bring something back is because they are getting hot and use the time of not bringing it back as a bit of a cool off. So why would I push a dog past what might be safe.

 

Now working sheep. Down in AR with terrible humidity I sometimes had to do some hard work with the dogs, say getting them out of the neighbors field where they were mixed in with lots of cattle. All sorts of pushing sheep through places they'd really not be, it was terribly hot work. If at one point we passed a stock tank or the pond and they would run over and jump in. Is that willfull or just a dog that is trying to stay cool or not over heat?

If the dog stopped working, I'd maybe do a correction and call him back to the job at hand as I say when we're done but I had no issue with a dog taking a detour into the water then right back to work, sometimes not even quitting work while dipping into the water. Besides, I've never had a dog just up and quit working sheep unless it's a training situation and I've pushed to hard. Sure I could call them back and I did, but then quickly found a way to end our session as obvisiously I had pushed them past their pressure point.

 

 

 

I think it's really all in the word.

I usually "ask" Mick if he wants to come in. Then there are time where he has to come in. Because I give him the leway of asking most of the time I don't mind having to tell him twice when I'm not asking, but he doesn't take that out of content, it's a come inside thing. That's not willful, that's giving him the choice.

[PSmitty]

Linda's comments to this thread got me thinking (always dangerous) about playing with our dogs. And maybe this should be the subject of a separate thread, but as I was jogging with the dogs this morning it occurred to me that when I play with my dogs I look at it as, well, play, in which they have some "say" in how the game goes (vs. an actual game, for example, flyball, where there are rules that need to be followed to compete successfully). There are times when Ranger brings his deflated basketball on our walks. I will kick it for him to fetch and most of the time he brings it back to me to kick again, but sometimes he (or one of the other dogs) will grab it and run in the other direction. I don't view that as disobedience to the game; after all, it's supposed to be fun for the dog, and if the dog decides that running off with the ball is fun, who am I to correct/punish the dog for that? Likewise if I have dogs fetching balls in a pond. It's supposed to be *fun* for *them.* Jill habitually will bring the ball within a few feet of shore and then drop it and come on out of the water. Yes, it can be a bit annoying from the POV of me getting hold of the ball to throw it again, but since it's supposed to be her fun time, I wouldn't dream of correcting/punishing her for not bringing the ball all the way back. Instead I have another dog who is trained to go collect balls/toys on command. I guess it sort of boggles my mind that an activity that's supposed to be for the dog's entertainment would be turned into something where the human considers the dog to be disobedient and then sees a need to correct/punish the dog for that disobedience. They're dogs. Shouldn't we take into account what they might view as fun when we're playing with them (within reason of course)? It would be like sending a toddler to her room because we were rolling a ball between us (the game) and then at some point she decides to grab the ball and toddle off with it. Am I in the minority on this?

 

J.

 

I'm totally with you on this.

 

And Linda said this:

 

I do not believe it is done to annoy us, but to assert their ability to make decisions. I am sure they are not thinking this exactly, but I dont' know how to put it into dog-speak.

 

I'm totally with her on this, too.

[Root Beer]

Even in the context of a performance sport, I don't personally consider the dog's choice to do something other than what I have indicated as "disobedience" per se. Although it is often an independent choice on the part of the dog.

 

While it's a more formal game with clearer structure, if my dog does something other than what I have indicated in competition, I don't consider that choice to be "wrong". There is always a reason and I always consider the dog's reason to be valid. It is, after all, a game.

 

Sure, sometimes it's my fault - I didn't cue correctly, my timing of the cue was off, my voice said one thing but my body language said another, or there is a hole in training that needs to be filled before the dog will perform correctly.

 

But sometimes it's the dog's choice, too - independent of me. I find that in sports, this is actually a very uncommon point of view. Most do say that any error on the dog's part is the handler's fault. My experience tells me different.

 

One time in competition, Dean accidentally took the teeter. This was before he was fully trained to do the teeter. In the game that we were playing, it was not required for the dog to take it and I never intended for him to do so. But, as we were running along, it was suddenly in his path and I called him off too late. He went flying up and when it fell out from under him, he literally kept running in the air for a second before he descended and landed with his feet back on the thing. He was fine and we finished the game.

 

Later that day, I was running him in Standard. There was no teeter since we were running in Level 1. The dogwalk at this place was not slatted and when we got to it, he put four paws on and jumped right off.

 

Did he disobey? Technically, yes. I told him to "walk it" and he knew it. But he had a darn good reason to jump off that board. Earlier that day an identical board had fallen out from under him! In fact, I would say that his choice was good sense at that point and I completely respected that choice.

 

Granted, the reasons why dogs choose to do something other than what they are told in performance is not usually that dramatic, but that's a very clear example of what I mean.

 

Since I view performance as a game, part of the game is preparing the dog to play successfully. Then, on game day, we strive for a solid performance. When that doesn't happen . . . well, it's a game. At least that's how I see it.

[geonni banner]

Linda's comments to this thread got me thinking (always dangerous) about playing with our dogs. And maybe this should be the subject of a separate thread, but as I was jogging with the dogs this morning it occurred to me that when I play with my dogs I look at it as, well, play, in which they have some "say" in how the game goes (vs. an actual game, for example, flyball, where there are rules that need to be followed to compete successfully). There are times when Ranger brings his deflated basketball on our walks. I will kick it for him to fetch and most of the time he brings it back to me to kick again, but sometimes he (or one of the other dogs) will grab it and run in the other direction. I don't view that as disobedience to the game; after all, it's supposed to be fun for the dog, and if the dog decides that running off with the ball is fun, who am I to correct/punish the dog for that? Likewise if I have dogs fetching balls in a pond. It's supposed to be *fun* for *them.* Jill habitually will bring the ball within a few feet of shore and then drop it and come on out of the water. Yes, it can be a bit annoying from the POV of me getting hold of the ball to throw it again, but since it's supposed to be her fun time, I wouldn't dream of correcting/punishing her for not bringing the ball all the way back. Instead I have another dog who is trained to go collect balls/toys on command. I guess it sort of boggles my mind that an activity that's supposed to be for the dog's entertainment would be turned into something where the human considers the dog to be disobedient and then sees a need to correct/punish the dog for that disobedience. They're dogs. Shouldn't we take into account what they might view as fun when we're playing with them (within reason of course)? It would be like sending a toddler to her room because we were rolling a ball between us (the game) and then at some point she decides to grab the ball and toddle off with it. Am I in the minority on this?

 

J.

 

I agree that recreational activities for the dog, should be just that - for the dog. If he's done playing, for whatever reason, that's just dandy. When I go out to play with the Kong or the Frisbee, I don't say, "Fetch!" when I throw it. I say where's the Wubba/ Frisbee/ Kong?" The dog usually goes after it. Most of the time she brings it right back, presumably so I will throw it again. It's what she wants. If she decides to walk around and shake it, or drop it and investigate a clump of weeds, so be it. When She's done with the weeds I might say, "Where's the Wubba?" She will usually respond by going after it and bringing it in. More Wubba play is what she wants. If she responds to the question by glancing at the Wubba, glancing at me and strolling off to gnaw an inviting stick, so be it. I go get the Wubba and pick it up myself.

I view "Where's the Wubba?" as an invitation - not a command. So if the dog plainly says, "Bugger the Wubba, I'm bored with it" and goes weed-sniffing she is not disobedient - willfully or otherwise. She has simply declined an invitation.

If I were training her for formal obedience, I would have a special collar that we only used for that activity. I would teach her a "Fetch" command and work toward a high percentage of prompt compliance.

 

The same if we're at the dog park or any off-lead, (or even on lead) recreational strolling. If I want the dog to come to me because I feel like thumping her ribs affectionately or I found something she might find interesting I say "Come-meere" or "puppy, puppy, puppy!" If she's out ahead of me and I'm changing direction, I say, "Let's go!" If she's off-lead she will eventually circle around to stay with me. If she's on lead she can finish sniffing the bush or what ever.

 

If I were in a situation that I considered there to be some urgency, I would use a formal recall. "Sugarfoot come!" And I expect her to beeline to me immediately. "Puppy, puppy, puppy" is an invitation. "Sugarfoot, Come!" Is a command. I expect commands to be obeyed - barring extenuating circumstances.

 

Play is play, and just hanging out is just hanging out. The dog chooses what to do. If she doesn't choose to accept my invitation - "Oh well!"

 

I too believe in letting a dog choose where to sleep, and how to amuse itself, as long as it respects specific rules like stay out of the garbage and don't tease the cat. Commands should be used when I need them. And I expect the dog to comply. But the rest of the time she gets to choose.

[Ooky]

I'm kind of in-between on this one. There are the safety rules that Liz points out, and those are non-negotiable (no teeth on skin, etc). There is also the "last-one" command, which is non-negotiable as I won't be hounded by my own dog or encourage any OCD behavior this way.

 

And then there is the not-bring-ball-back, which is TOTALLY up to the dog in my book. I don't want to guess if he is really too hot and tired - I figure he probably is if he doesn't return. Even if he is bored, that is fine too. But I have played ball a few times until his back legs were dragging and don't ever want to see that again. Also, he is SO into fetch that it is no big deal to me if he doesn't return with the ball, he will certainly want to again soon enough. If I need him to be closer (like at the park with other people around) I'll call him in but still allow him to sit with the ball.

 

Then there is my insistence that he perform certain commands while playing fetch for training/mental stimulation purposes. Sometimes, it's the price of playing fetch with me - you want me to throw it, you will have to do some tricks/abide by changing rules. For example, I may insist he wait while I throw it, or he may need to do 5 touches, 5 leg weaves, circle behind me from both directions, and a roll over before I throw he ball. Sometimes I have him sit and walk away. He is then to wait for my cue and round behind my back when I throw the ball. However, this seems to be a big strain on his impulse control and he sometimes wants to "cheat" and only run towards me but not go all the way around my back, because he is so impatient to get to that ball! I correct him before he can get the ball, and, if I have to, set up the "game" again to do it right. Or sometimes I use the game of fetch, which is a powerful reward for him, to train/proof new things - I did this a LOT with boundary training (where he is not allowed to cross the curb and go into the road without permission, and even if running full tilt for a ball must screech to a halt and lay down and wait for me when he reaches the boundary). This is a very serious thing for us, so I used firm corrections (verbal) in training it, while still also playing fetch. Not punishment, but definitely corrections.

 

Our fetch can sort of organically morph from something that's purely recreational and fairly mindless to something that is much more structured/directed by me and/or a method for training something in a fairly rigorous manner. For us, I think it has to do with living in the city. While he enjoys "mindless" fetch a lot (as do I sometimes - way easier for both of us!), I notice it doesn't satisfy him at the same level the "games" with more details and tougher expectations do. Because we live in an apartment in the middle of the city (downtown), in his normal life his off-leash time has to be pretty structured, and at the moment isn't even an everyday occurrence. "Just fetch" will exercise his body but not much else, and I personally find we need to pack more into our activities. But when we go visit the in-laws on the farm, or go to a clinic, or camping, or I take him on work trips where he is off leash a lot, then fetch is usually "just fetch", because he's got so much else going on his mind is already working, he's got freedom and other activties. Then, fetch really can become just a luxury with no need for me to impose rules/requests (beyond safety rules) that I insist be followed.

 

I guess it sort of boggles my mind that an activity that's supposed to be for the dog's entertainment would be turned into something where the human considers the dog to be disobedient and then sees a need to correct/punish the dog for that disobedience. They're dogs. Shouldn't we take into account what they might view as fun when we're playing with them (within reason of course)? It would be like sending a toddler to her room because we were rolling a ball between us (the game) and then at some point she decides to grab the ball and toddle off with it. Am I in the minority on this?

[Shetlander]

But sometimes it's the dog's choice, too - independent of me. I find that in sports, this is actually a very uncommon point of view. Most do say that any error on the dog's part is the handler's fault. My experience tells me different.

 

There definitely is a big camp in agility that it’s always the handler's fault because it is either training or handling deficiency. I often felt that way, given some of the handling I saw. I definitely prefer that school of thought to the "He's blowing me off!" crowd and those who use punishment for mistakes in a game. And in obedience, I ran into the belief that the dog was being defiant much more frequently than the handler/trainer was being ineffective.

 

Still, I remember making myself crazy in agility trying to paint a clear path for my Lhasa, Chili, who at times sucked off my lead, usually to contacts. Friends and I were trying to figure out what I was doing wrong to no avail. When I took him to a seminar, I felt very validated when I saw him blind cross the instructor to take a jump that was in no way even close he was being cued. The instructor came to a halt, Chili returned to stand in front of him and the two regarded each other for several seconds before the instructor commented "Well, aren't you the independent minded little fellow?" So my task became not better handling but instead I needed to make coming to my hand extremely reinforcing for those moments of Lhasattitude. If I could call Chili off his wrong course, he got treats and excitement. That made him willing to consider I might have an alternative path for him to try. After enough practice, calling to my hand worked very well even in the heat of competition.

 

 

I guess I just choose to exert control over my dogs under different circumstances and let them widen the parameters during play, as long as no one's getting hurt. We have so much control over so much of our dogs' lives that I just like them to have control at times too

 

I think our dogs live very different lives since yours have work to do and Quinn is solely a companion. Consequently, I think his parameters are pretty wide much of the time, other than basic manners and no, you don't get to tell the other dogs what they can do, which is back to manners. Since standing in the heat or snow or rain or dark throwing a toy isn't first on my list (though I love watching how much fun Quinn has), I probably am a grump about bring me the toy all the way back if you want me to throw it. I also require Quinn to return the Frisbee directly to my hand. Again, not talking about a dog who needs a break. When the Frisbee falls to the ground, I almost always take that as a sign Quinn is starting to tire.

 

There is also the "last-one" command, which is non-negotiable as I won't be hounded by my own dog or encourage any OCD behavior this way.

 

Oh gosh, there's another rule I have -- maybe I am a control freak Quinn gets told "that'll do" or "take a break" as well. And then further play just isn't an option. I also put fetch toys up unless we're playing. Like you, I didn't want a dog who followed me with a toy in his mouth or jabbed at me constantly to throw for him. And since Quinn is toy crazy and was tugging and fetching almost out of the womb, I think that could have been a real possibility.