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RDM ---- You did more than anyone could ever ask or expect. The most troubling aspect is that the legal system couldn't be depended upon to hold their end up...there was definitely something wrong in that household. The state legislatures could also help out in another way.... there is a great deal more that could be done to encourage responsible ownership....we have "sin" and "luxury" taxes for everything under the sun it seems....except in dog ownership, at least in my neck of the woods...

 

Maybe it doesn't contribute to the problem of BYB, but this is how much it costs to license a dog in my county. Is there any incentive there to spaying or neutering the dog? It's more of an inconvenience to own a female dog that is not been spayed, so people might be more tempted to go ahead and spay anyway. But an intact male really isn't that much of a problem to have around, if you don't mind them wandering off now and again looking for a bit of fun.

 

My vet is pretty cheap....it cost around a $100 each to neuter Robin and Brodie, but at $2.00 difference in the license fee, a year, I'd never get my money back in the lifetime of the dogs....if I were a person with a different kind of mindset, why would I bother to neuter a male dog or for that matter, spay a female as it is more expensive to spay a female...I might just lock her up on the barn for a few weeks of the year and hope for the best... Robin is good tempered, very well put together, healthy, shows some promise on sheep, and darned good looking to boot -- so is Brodie......are they neutered?...Heck, yes. Took care of that very early, thank you very much. The way that Robin jumps fences, I don't need him half way to Fairdale the second my back is turned... because somebody was too cheap to spay their female. It might be recommended to wait until they are 18-24 months old, but the minute they turned a year, because spring was in the air, off they went.

 

When I picked up the $6.00 license, I didn't even need to show the neuter certificates. But maybe that's because the folks knew me...

 

 

 

MALE $8.00

 

 

NEUTERED MALE ¨ $6.00

¨ ¨ ¨

 

 

FEMALE $8.00

 

 

SPAYED FEMALE $ 6.00

ABOVE PRICE INCLUDES ONE-DOLLAR SERVICE FEE ALLOWED BY LAW.

(ETA - this fee is collected by the county treasurer's office to cover the cost of handling the paperwork)

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Liz, we have enough taxes and fee's in this country we don't need to add dog ownership as well. Quite simply it's stupid idiots that really have no business owning a dog that are the problem. Those that want to be educated will be those that are like the OP's breeder won't be. As for licensing and S/N that really has nothing to do with it imo, it's responsible owners. I will not advocate that everyone needs to s/n I also don't have a county license (no county HS or ASPCA either) and for the past 10 years I haven't registered with the county I lived in. S/N helps, it's not a be all end all to the dog issues and can be harmful in some cases. Education and "peer" pressure should be able to do more, regulations simply drive the responsible ones underground. 'Cept in this case nothing mattered....

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Liz, we have enough taxes and fee's in this country we don't need to add dog ownership as well. Quite simply it's stupid idiots that really have no business owning a dog that are the problem. Those that want to be educated will be those that are like the OP's breeder won't be. As for licensing and S/N that really has nothing to do with it imo, it's responsible owners. I will not advocate that everyone needs to s/n I also don't have a county license (no county HS or ASPCA either) and for the past 10 years I haven't registered with the county I lived in. S/N helps, it's not a be all end all to the dog issues and can be harmful in some cases. Education and "peer" pressure should be able to do more, regulations simply drive the responsible ones underground. 'Cept in this case nothing mattered....

 

 

I agree with you about the taxes and fees in many respects....A fishing license in this state costs about three times more than a dog license! Plus, you have to shell out more bucks for a trout stamp...I"m not saying that "everyone" needs to spay/neuter or that kennel licenses for responsible ethical breeders should be raised out of sight, but perhaps consider that a wider difference for a license between altered and unaltered pets might do more to create responsible ownership .... just another viewpoint...

 

ETA -- My first job was a dispatcher for county emergency services (what is now 911). Our director happened to be a dog lover and so we kept a copy of the current and several back years worth of dog license reports in the center. If someone called up at 11 pm on a weekend said they found a dog and had a tag number...we could call the owner and say their dog had been found and who to call to go get it. As far as I now, our county 911 center still does that.

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Sure, go ahead and get the brother too. When you wonder why your dogs pay no attention to you and are thoroughly bonded with each other, no doubt you'll come crying here asking for advice on how to fix the problem. Given how eager you've proven yourself to be to accept advice in this situation, don't be surprised when no one comes to your aid. (It's just like this thread: you were all impatient because no one answered you right away. I had read your post, but had nothing good to say about the breeder, and having been here many years, knew just how this would play out and so at first figured I wouldn't bother to answer. What's the point, after all? And I now see that my first impulse was the right one. While you pat yourself on the back for "saving" this pup, just remember that you have simultaneously encouraged the breeding of many more. Do you really think that the people who had that litter are going to be completely honest with you about their future plans? Really? Did they mention the bitch was now spayed? If not, you can bet your bottom dollar there will be more pups. And who knows what fates those pups will suffer? But of course that won't concern you because you've already gotten your little bundle of joy.)

 

As for making money on litters, I can assure you that anything those folks got from anyone, including you, was pure profit. You can bet they didn't do any sort of pre-breeding health screening, probably didn't do vet care during the bitch's pregnancy, and did only the minimum for the pups. No $$ in means anything they get from buyers, oh, excuse me, rescuers is profit.

 

NJNovice has already pointed out the costs incurred by a good breeder, but of course you wouldn't want to hear that anyway, because then you can't justify looking for a cheap puppy. I just hope all the money you saved with this purchase is put toward neutering your own dog so that at least you're not contributing to the overpopulation problem.

 

banghead.gif

 

J.

 

So would it be acceptable if these two puppies went to a shelter to "rescue" them then?

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So would it be acceptable if these two puppies went to a shelter to "rescue" them then?

I think this question has already been answered by several respondents to this thread. If the pups went to the shelter, then the breeder would not have profited from the breeding and maybe, just maybe would think twice next time. The pups likely would have been picked up by a rescue group. So yes, the breeder would not have been rewarded monetarily for pumping out puppies that never should have been created in the first place.

 

J.

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And I would have just said willful ignorance, but Journey has hit the nail squarely on the head. One thing I've come to understand over the years is that people will do whatever they want to do and then look for ways to rationalize or justify their actions, even in the face of disapproval of their peers. It's one of the uglier aspects of being human I guess.

 

J.

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And I would have just said willful ignorance, but Journey has hit the nail squarely on the head. One thing I've come to understand over the years is that people will do whatever they want to do and then look for ways to rationalize or justify their actions, even in the face of disapproval of their peers. It's one of the uglier aspects of being human I guess.

 

J.

 

Willful ignorance definitely has it's place in some people who support backyard breeders. My stepfather actually WANTED a lab specifically from a backyard breeder, because his last lab came from one, and she was a nice dog. I offered him help in finding him a good working line lab, due to some duck hunters I know, but nope, he wanted one that was "bred just to be a pet."

 

Fortunately, my mother stepped in and brought home a GSD puppy a few days ago (from a good breeder), so he said they can't have three dogs and won't get a lab until one of the current ones crosses the rainbow bridge, which should be a long time. I figure that will be a good 10 years since the older GSD is only about 18 months and the puppy is 8 weeks.

 

I'm not quite sure if my mom knows what she got into with the current pup though. He's already VERY high drive, and comes from high drive parents. If it doesn't work out, I will gladly take him off their hands, as he's pretty much my dream pup.

 

0714001542.jpg

 

Edited to add a picture, because all mentions of new puppies require pictures.

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but perhaps consider that a wider difference for a license between altered and unaltered pets might do more to create responsible ownership .... just another viewpoint...

 

No. You are still equating S/N with responsible owners, that simply isn't the case. Money will not create responsible owners nor will legislation and from the looks of things neither will education...

 

Great article Liz, thanks!

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Wonderful article! Thanks for posting the link, Liz. I see this phenomenon everywhere - for me it boils down to this: a lot of people would rather be right in their own minds than change anything in their belief system.

 

And, a minister I used to know said, "Opinions based on emotion will never be changed by facts." He was so right.

 

Ruth

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I'm not quite sure if my mom knows what she got into with the current pup though. He's already VERY high drive, and comes from high drive parents. If it doesn't work out, I will gladly take him off their hands, as he's pretty much my dream pup.

 

0714001542.jpg

 

Edited to add a picture, because all mentions of new puppies require pictures.

 

Pretty pup.

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No. You are still equating S/N with responsible owners, that simply isn't the case. Money will not create responsible owners nor will legislation and from the looks of things neither will education...

 

Great article Liz, thanks!

 

 

S/N is part of responsible ownership, certainly.

 

If someone isn't looking after their animals in my county, they lose the right to own one. You can't just go the SPCA and "get a dog" --or a cat for that matter. You have to prove that you will be a responsible owner. SPCA works with animal control to investigate and prosecute abuse complaints and the do not hesitate to go in and take animals that are being abused or neglected. Tax dollars, private donations, and legislation support those efforts. The SPCA is very active in the community to educate people on pet overpopulation and in how to properly care for all kinds of pets. So yes, money, legislation, and education do work together to create responsible pet owners and put a stop to irresponsible ownership and abuse of animals.

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S/N is part of responsible ownership, certainly.

 

If someone isn't looking after their animals in my county, they lose the right to own one. You can't just go the SPCA and "get a dog" --or a cat for that matter. You have to prove that you will be a responsible owner. SPCA works with animal control to investigate and prosecute abuse complaints and the do not hesitate to go in and take animals that are being abused or neglected. Tax dollars, private donations, and legislation support those efforts. The SPCA is very active in the community to educate people on pet overpopulation and in how to properly care for all kinds of pets. So yes, money, legislation, and education do work together to create responsible pet owners and put a stop to irresponsible ownership and abuse of animals.

 

S/N isn't necessarily part of responsible ownership. It merely makes the life of the owner a bit easier. One can be a responsible owner and not S/N their dog. There are most health downsides and upsides to speutering, and personally, I think most people do it far too young.

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^^^^ thank you!

 

BTW, I flagged the listing on Craig's List.

 

Good for you.

 

i'm going to be a dissenting opinion. so flame away. if you meet the dog and like him, then by all means get him. one of my best dogs EVER was a back yard breeder pup. and no, they never did breed again. the dogs were supposed to be springer spaniels, the mother was a lovely liver and white but all the pups were black and white. when i looked down the road apiece, there stood a handsome male border collie in the neighbors yard. i had no doubt where those pups came from. she was a wonderful companion, of terrific nature. all who met her wanted a pup from her, but i had had her spayed as soon as she was old enough. why wait till these dogs end up somewhere awful, then pat yourself on the back for saving them. i've always heard that even for accidental pups, the owner should ask something for them, $50 or so, just to keep the riffraff out. if you can't plunk down $50, then you can't afford to keep a dog. don't hold it against the pups because their humans are ignorant. if they are intent on being back yard breeders not much you are going to do will change them.

 

Well spoken.

 

You just got taken in the oldest scam in the book. "2 left, only 2 left"...then you get there are there's way more, but they'll let you have one at half price because there won't be anymore.

 

Oceanfront property in Arizona and all that....

 

Those people just did make money on their byb efforts, because they got $25 for a dog that was worth worthing nothing to them.

 

The byb type consider $25 profit indeed. And mark my words...as an Alabama native, a Border Collie rescuer...they now have the ultimate justification to do it again.

 

Vet shots, dog food for 9 weeks, flea control, 2 dogs I think not!

 

 

There is zero point in trying to educate people. If you truly believe what you wrote (above) then you don't have a clue what goes into breeding a good stockdog, a mutt, yep that's about what you bought, and you will keep these folks in business. How do you even know the sire was a border collie?? Why do people ask questions.....

No one is going to hate you but it does get old when folks are trolling. Can you afford 2 dogs? HW, neutering (or are you not going to neuter them?) flea control, training classes, crates..........Impulse buys will come back to bite you, hopefully, everything will be fine but if it's not........

 

I had 3 dogs before and 1 was the border collie that was put down. 1 lab, 1 mutt also they don't need training to be good pets. These people weren't in business. I don't need a good stock dog for a pet nor need to spend $600 for one either.

 

 

Well, let's see...

 

vet care is expensive

hip/elbow/eye certification is expensive

trials are expensive (not just the cost of the trial, but there's travel costs)

clinics are expensive

good dog food is expensive

 

Sounds to be like a breeder of quality pups is just about lucky to break even on that litter with those $600 puppies.

 

Still looks like they are definitely making money to me.

 

 

Sure, go ahead and get the brother too. When you wonder why your dogs pay no attention to you and are thoroughly bonded with each other, no doubt you'll come crying here asking for advice on how to fix the problem. Given how eager you've proven yourself to be to accept advice in this situation, don't be surprised when no one comes to your aid. (It's just like this thread: you were all impatient because no one answered you right away. I had read your post, but had nothing good to say about the breeder, and having been here many years, knew just how this would play out and so at first figured I wouldn't bother to answer. What's the point, after all? And I now see that my first impulse was the right one. While you pat yourself on the back for "saving" this pup, just remember that you have simultaneously encouraged the breeding of many more. Do you really think that the people who had that litter are going to be completely honest with you about their future plans? Really? Did they mention the bitch was now spayed? If not, you can bet your bottom dollar there will be more pups. And who knows what fates those pups will suffer? But of course that won't concern you because you've already gotten your little bundle of joy.)

 

As for making money on litters, I can assure you that anything those folks got from anyone, including you, was pure profit. You can bet they didn't do any sort of pre-breeding health screening, probably didn't do vet care during the bitch's pregnancy, and did only the minimum for the pups. No $$ in means anything they get from buyers, oh, excuse me, rescuers is profit.

 

NJNovice has already pointed out the costs incurred by a good breeder, but of course you wouldn't want to hear that anyway, because then you can't justify looking for a cheap puppy. I just hope all the money you saved with this purchase is put toward neutering your own dog so that at least you're not contributing to the overpopulation problem.

 

banghead.gif

 

J.

 

I got all the advice I need from you folks believe me.

 

So would it be acceptable if these two puppies went to a shelter to "rescue" them then?

 

Then some people would actually feel they saved a dog!

 

I think this question has already been answered by several respondents to this thread. If the pups went to the shelter, then the breeder would not have profited from the breeding and maybe, just maybe would think twice next time. The pups likely would have been picked up by a rescue group. So yes, the breeder would not have been rewarded monetarily for pumping out puppies that never should have been created in the first place.

 

J.

 

No profit in $75 for 2 dogs sold out of seven and then considering shots, flea control, food for 9 weeks please.

 

 

banghead.gif I do not get why this is so hard for people to understand!

 

Maybe because other hard headed people think they always know best!

 

 

And I would have just said willful ignorance, but Journey has hit the nail squarely on the head. One thing I've come to understand over the years is that people will do whatever they want to do and then look for ways to rationalize or justify their actions, even in the face of disapproval of their peers. It's one of the uglier aspects of being human I guess.

 

J.

 

I did not to rationalize anything I am done with this site for good. You guys have at your expensive dogs while believeing you are saving the breed. What a joke and a bunch of hypocrits we have here.

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I had 3 dogs before and 1 was the border collie that was put down. 1 lab, 1 mutt also they don't need training to be good pets. These people weren't in business. I don't need a good stock dog for a pet nor need to spend $600 for one either.

 

Then don't spend $600 on one. Mick wasn't a backyard bred dog, and I ended up getting him as a rescue at 5 months for $100. Sinead (the pit bull) was free. ALL dogs need training to be good pets. Neither of mine have seen the inside of an obedience school (but I basically know what I'm doing...YMMV), but I have put a lot of time into training both. Spent a decent amount of time and money on herding lessons for Mick. Not because I have any need for him to herd sheep, but Border Collies need a job, and that's what he's bred to do. He enjoyed the lessons, and I hope to get him back into it.

 

Also, if labs and mutts are so much better than Border Collies as pets (since, apparently, they don't require training), why didn't you go to your local kill shelter and find a dog there? You'd really be saving a life that way. A lot of places down there still use the barbaric gas chamber to euthanize animals. Hell, you might have been able to actually save a Border Collie there.

 

Still looks like they are definitely making money to me.

Wow, I want to live in your world where it's so cheap to do all those things with a dog. Because it certainly isn't in my world.

 

I got all the advice I need from you folks believe me.

Then some people would actually feel they saved a dog!

No profit in $75 for 2 dogs sold out of seven and then considering shots, flea control, food for 9 weeks please.

Maybe because other hard headed people think they always know best!

I did not to rationalize anything I am done with this site for good. You guys have at your expensive dogs while believeing you are saving the breed. What a joke and a bunch of hypocrits we have here.

 

OMG. I'm so glad you have come here to tell us how terrible we are. I'm sure you will now make your santimonious exit while saying how much better you are than all us stuck up hypocrites with our expensive dogs. If you really wanted to save some dogs, you could have offered to get the parents spayed/neutered. Have fun raising two sibling puppies. It tends to go swimmingly, but since you are the grand dog expert, so much smarter and kinder than us, I'm sure you'll do super!

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S/N is part of responsible ownership, certainly.

 

It is not. It is one way to handle a very small part of responsible ownership.

 

Spay/neutering no more makes a responsible owner than OFA/CERF/Trialing makes a responsible breeder.

 

If it was that simple, then the laws world work. It's not, and they don't.

 

If someone isn't looking after their animals in my county, they lose the right to own one. You can't just go the SPCA and "get a dog" --or a cat for that matter. You have to prove that you will be a responsible owner. SPCA works with animal control to investigate and prosecute abuse complaints and the do not hesitate to go in and take animals that are being abused or neglected. Tax dollars, private donations, and legislation support those efforts. The SPCA is very active in the community to educate people on pet overpopulation and in how to properly care for all kinds of pets. So yes, money, legislation, and education do work together to create responsible pet owners and put a stop to irresponsible ownership and abuse of animals.

 

25 to 75 dollars will get you a dog at any SPCA I ever worked with. You fill out a piece of paper, say you have a fence and you haven't killed anything lately and you're done. No home check, no requirements, and in Alabama no spay/neuter either. You'll get a form though, so you can get some money back if you remember to have it done.

 

Here in Tennessee spay/neuter programs don't exist. The real AC is pretty much the tire of a car and the barrel of a shotgun. The official AC here is a good team of people but even they will tell you through thousands of hours of efforts over the last 10 years they have made zero difference in the percentages of animals that die. They just take more in now - the same percent dies.

 

Responsibility takes ethics, morality, and personal accountability. They have been trying to legislate all of that since the beginning of time without success. I don't know how to teach it...not a clue...and the OP here was just another example that when the chips are down people think first and only about themselves. The rest of it be da*ned. If you've got an itch, scratch it, doesn't matter what the consequences are later. You can always complain about the people who were mean (those who told you the truth), didn't help you (didn't butter you up and tell you what you wanted to hear), and hey a lawsuit is always an option too!

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It is not. It is one way to handle a very small part of responsible ownership.

 

Spay/neutering no more makes a responsible owner than OFA/CERF/Trialing makes a responsible breeder.

 

If it was that simple, then the laws world work. It's not, and they don't.

25 to 75 dollars will get you a dog at any SPCA I ever worked with. You fill out a piece of paper, say you have a fence and you haven't killed anything lately and you're done. No home check, no requirements, and in Alabama no spay/neuter either. You'll get a form though, so you can get some money back if you remember to have it done.

 

Here in Tennessee spay/neuter programs don't exist. The real AC is pretty much the tire of a car and the barrel of a shotgun. The official AC here is a good team of people but even they will tell you through thousands of hours of efforts over the last 10 years they have made zero difference in the percentages of animals that die. They just take more in now - the same percent dies.

 

Responsibility takes ethics, morality, and personal accountability. They have been trying to legislate all of that since the beginning of time without success. I don't know how to teach it...not a clue...and the OP here was just another example that when the chips are down people think first and only about themselves. The rest of it be da*ned. If you've got an itch, scratch it, doesn't matter what the consequences are later. You can always complain about the people who were mean (those who told you the truth), didn't help you (didn't butter you up and tell you what you wanted to hear), and hey a lawsuit is always an option too!

 

I liken your example to the property zoning wars going on here ...over the past ten years, there have been huge political and personal arguments over whether or not zoning should come to municipalities in this county and it always comes down to "if you don't own the view, you can't control it." And, "What people do on their own property is their own d**n business." But, every now and then, something comes along that makes people question the wisdom of their decision.....

 

The most recent case in point is an enterprising young man who has decided to have a Woodstock like concert on his farm -- three days and nights of non-stop music, live bands mixed with DJs....the township is screaming WE NEED ZONING NOW TO KEEP THIS BAD STUFF OUT!!!!! Well, that won't stop this year's concert.... (The township is "dry" by the way, the only liqueur license is, ironically enough, held by the local church to ensure that no evil brew is sold in the township but I suppose everyone can bring their own to the event if it's on private property, which leads to a whole 'nother issue...)

 

We're by no means a Utopia for animals...that kind of stuff goes on here too, but it does get prosecuted and word gets around and the next guy thinks twice before he shoots his dog, abuses his wife or beats his kid because he doesn't want to go to jail. And it's a heck of a lot tougher here to get a dog from the SPCA.

 

Liz

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I do not think Spay and Neuter are the only solution but as a policy it does have an effect. I have lived in Rhode Island for the last 15 years, and got my first dog at out local animal shelter at that time. Back in 95 there were plenty of local puppies and dogs available, today the same shelter imports puppies and dogs from a couple of shelters in the south. This was a huge philosphical debate for them, very much along the lines of this topic. Basically the concern was if they bought the dogs north were they just encouraging the problem. In the end one of the things that swayed the debate was the concern that if they had no puppies then people would just go to a pet store which was even worse than rescuing dogs that are going to die any way. The program is very comprehensive and not just based on spay/neuter, but an education component going into schools etc. It is not just a drop in puppies, but they have had a drop in strays as well.

Bottom line I do think a comprehensive education policy can work, I should also add that the local towns have not played a role with license fees etc. In my town it costs $10.00 for a spayed dog and $15.00 for intact and it is on the honor system, plus they do not maintain a database of dogs so if you skip a year it is never noticed. The only thing they check is the rabbies cert.

 

Edited to add that Rhode Island requires all dogs adopted through a shelter to be S/N when they reach an appropriate age (I do not know what that is)

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I just got around to this thread and I want to ask a hypothetical question.

 

Let's pretend I'm the OP and have found this pup on Craig's List. I don't want to support a BYB, but I've fallen hard for this pup. I'm trying to think of a responsible way to get my hands on this puppy.

 

What if I contact the seller and say,"I will spay your female in exchange for the puppy (and perhaps its brother). You call and make the appointment to have her spayed at your vet. I will meet you there at the vets, and when she is admitted I will take the pup(s.)"

 

You meet at the vets, see the bitch admitted, collect pup, foster the brother and work with local Border Collie rescue to place him.

 

Now, tell me why this does/doesn't work or does/doesn't make sense. I'm not saying it does or doesn't - but I want to hear discussion on it.

 

No, I've never done this.

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I just got around to this thread and I want to ask a hypothetical question.

 

Let's pretend I'm the OP and have found this pup on Craig's List. I don't want to support a BYB, but I've fallen hard for this pup. I'm trying to think of a responsible way to get my hands on this puppy.

 

What if I contact the seller and say,"I will spay your female in exchange for the puppy (and perhaps its brother). You call and make the appointment to have her spayed at your vet. I will meet you there at the vets, and when she is admitted I will take the pup(s.)"

 

You meet at the vets, see the bitch admitted, collect pup, foster the brother and work with local Border Collie rescue to place him.

 

Now, tell me why this does/doesn't work or does/doesn't make sense. I'm not saying it does or doesn't - but I want to hear discussion on it.

 

No, I've never done this.

 

If you really wanted the pup, then yes, doing things like this does make sense, and would work. You have to make an effort though, and stick to your guns and *not* take the pup unless the prove their end of the deal. Be prepared for excuses and shenanigans.

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