Boder Collie in Talladega

[juliepoudrier]

Liz,

Nothing really to add to the whole "why not "rescue" the pups comments, since Paula and Mary have adequately covered that topic, but it does bother me that you're assuming these pups will be abused or worse if someone doesn't swoop in and save them from their awful fates. You really have no idea what will become of those pups, and it's just as likely that the family members that took the others will grow tired of theirs after they get pas the cute puppy stage and become annoying adolescents and thus bad things could just as easily happen to the ones that were placed as to the ones that weren't. Instead of worrying about those two puppies (one of which no doubt is already in the hands of the OP), why not instead consider the lives of all the additional puppies this breeder will be encouraged to produce if they are successful in unloading this litter? You could worry yourself to death over every animal in need, but the fact is that in cases like this, buying the pup (and maybe even adopting it out for free) could just encourage many more such pups to be produced--with NO BETTER PROSPECTS than the two on Craig's List today.

 

J.

[Journey]

^^^^ thank you!

 

BTW, I flagged the listing on Craig's List.

[rufftie]

i'm going to be a dissenting opinion. so flame away. if you meet the dog and like him, then by all means get him. one of my best dogs EVER was a back yard breeder pup. and no, they never did breed again. the dogs were supposed to be springer spaniels, the mother was a lovely liver and white but all the pups were black and white. when i looked down the road apiece, there stood a handsome male border collie in the neighbors yard. i had no doubt where those pups came from. she was a wonderful companion, of terrific nature. all who met her wanted a pup from her, but i had had her spayed as soon as she was old enough. why wait till these dogs end up somewhere awful, then pat yourself on the back for saving them. i've always heard that even for accidental pups, the owner should ask something for them, $50 or so, just to keep the riffraff out. if you can't plunk down $50, then you can't afford to keep a dog. don't hold it against the pups because their humans are ignorant. if they are intent on being back yard breeders not much you are going to do will change them.

[ejano]

Liz,

Nothing really to add to the whole "why not "rescue" the pups comments, since Paula and Mary have adequately covered that topic, but it does bother me that you're assuming these pups will be abused or worse if someone doesn't swoop in and save them from their awful fates. You really have no idea what will become of those pups, and it's just as likely that the family members that took the others will grow tired of theirs after they get pas the cute puppy stage and become annoying adolescents and thus bad things could just as easily happen to the ones that were placed as to the ones that weren't. Instead of worrying about those two puppies (one of which no doubt is already in the hands of the OP), why not instead consider the lives of all the additional puppies this breeder will be encouraged to produce if they are successful in unloading this litter? You could worry yourself to death over every animal in need, but the fact is that in cases like this, buying the pup (and maybe even adopting it out for free) could just encourage many more such pups to be produced--with NO BETTER PROSPECTS than the two on Craig's List today.

 

J.

Nobody really does - but it's a fair guess that, as others have pointed out, that the breeder is tired of having it around...the advertisement says as much. Either the breeder is responsible or not...it has a collar and shots...but selling on Craiglist for $50.... If nobody is working with it, it is getting to be a nuisance, outgrowing it's "cuteness" and at three months it definitely is needing training and discipline And you're right...it's a poster pup for a lot of pups that nobody wants. But realistically, whether or not this breeder sells or gives away these last two pups, they'll still go on to have another litter because that's the way they are..

 

Sure, a great many pups that on the surface seem to be going to good homes end up being given up on for a variety of reasons. For my part, it was very easy in particular starting around the 10 month stage to see why so many end up with behavioral problems and are given up by their owners. Mine suddenly became a great deal of time consuming work. I found myself spending the better part of my day keeping them exercised, trained, entertained, fed, groomed, socialized and generally out of trouble, their outside bathroom area picked up and their crates cleaned, Robin out of the garden, Brodie from chasing the cat... etc... And we continue to follow that pattern ... it's enjoyable...good for all of us. I have the time to do it.

 

But for someone who took it on without thinking about it and suddenly ended up with even one whirling dervish on their hands, yeah I can see how at that age, plunk to the pound they go. I can't debate the merits of how to stop BYB...I agree with all of the principles you do. I seem to be on a crusade lately to save the world and everything in it... Somehow I don't think I'll get very far .....better just give up....

 

Liz

[ejano]

Didn't I already say that?

 

I didn't see it either....apologies...I'm blurry eyed from correcting grammar quizzes....

 

Liz

[Laurae]

I can't debate the merits of how to stop BYB...I agree with all of the principles you do. I seem to be on a crusade lately to save the world and everything in it... Somehow I don't think I'll get very far .....better just give up....

 

Kind of seems like that last sentence is meant to be a dig at everyone who is too jaded to help animals in need or something, but in case you are sincere, the answer is not to just give up, but to put your efforts toward saving more than just one--if saving that one may be contributing to the problem...

[ejano]

Kind of seems like that last sentence is meant to be a dig at everyone who is too jaded to help animals in need or something, but in case you are sincere, the answer is not to just give up, but to put your efforts toward saving more than just one--if saving that one may be contributing to the problem...

 

No, it's not a dig at anyone or anything here, just my own weariness. I've just been running around in some pretty useless circles up in my area trying to work on a plan to tackle some environmental/socio-economic problems in our area and the entire issue is just too big for one encompassing solution. So I've been working on a plan to try to narrow the focus a bit, start with just one part of the issue but everything is so entangled it's impossible to separate..it's like a chain of dominoes....can't come up with anything workable... The frustration is mounting day by day...

 

Liz

[juliepoudrier]

To me it's not about being jaded or saving "just this one;" it's about trying to do, as Laura says, the right thing for the many. Encouraging BYBs, mills (through pet stores or BYB mills) , or any other irresponsible breeder by "saving" the one is ultimately adding to the problem. Do I feel sorry for those pups and the ones like them? Sure. Do I wonder what the owners of those pups will now do--abandon them at some point or produce *even more* puppies? Yes. Do I worry that the OP was interested in papers because s/he wants to make a quick buck by also producing puppies? Yes, a resounding yes!

 

ETA: Liz, I know this doesn't apply to your specific issue, but as far as dogs are concerned probably the one solution that would tackle the most problems is to start or becomg involved with a local rescue.

 

J.

[Malvie]

I'll make this as mild as I can....

 

This thread makes me mad.

 

Look, OP (Original Poster): Look on the main page of this board and look down from "General Border Collie Discussion". You'll see a thread on "Dogs Available for Rescue".

 

I rescue dogs. I had a beautiful dog posted for months and nobody wanted her. (She's now mine, so not available).

 

Go to a shelter and find a wonderful pet. Doesn't even have to be a BC. Could be a "little brown dog".

 

My office is down the street from B.A.R.C. in Houston. I can't go over there, I just can't. All those sweet, wonderful dogs who have (in Houston) 48 hours to be adopted or put down (that means, somebody gives them an injection of lethal drugs which stops their heart and kills them; often, their last thought is that someone held them down and stuck a syringe in their leg, extremely painful. They are then unceremoniously dumped in an open pit.

 

There are THOUSANDS upon THOUSANDS of wonderful, loving pets put down in this country every year, pets who would make you a wonderful companion. Papers? No.

 

I have three Border Collies (see pictures). I don't have papers on any of the three, but they are definitely Border Collies. They are loving, loyal, sweet, funny, goofy, and my constant companions. I love them completely, and they love me completely. To tell the unvarnished truth (which a large glass of Canadian Club has helped with), last year I contemplated suicide. One of the things that stopped me was the thought, "What would happen to my sweet little dogs?" (That's over, no need for concern, it was a low point in my life).

 

Get over yourself, you don't need papers. You need to find a nice dog that's got a limited lifespan and save that dog; trust me, the dog KNOWS you have saved him/her.

 

Supporting unscrupulous breeders like the CL variety---just increases the number of poor, bewildered dogs in shelters.

 

As I said, I've made this as nice as I can make it. I think I'll have another CC/rocks, I have taken tomorrow as a vacation day. My 86 year old Dad is coming to visit, and we are going to take the dogs to Galveston and walk along the beach with them.

[muttlycrew]

I would like to chime in and say offer to foster for a local rescue or a BC Rescue. I knew I wanted to add another BC to my crew so I decided to foster. I went through 15 + dogs over almost a 2 year span...there was always *something* that wasn't right about each of those dogs for me. I needed a dog that would get along with my current pack and be my next agility dog.

 

My wait paid off in spades -- not only did I get a great agility dog, but a fantastic Frisbee, dock diving, and companion dog who is pretty good on sheep. She has a wonderful personality and loves every single person/kid she meets. I am so glad I waited because I truly did find *the* perfect dog (for me!).

 

[ejano]

To me it's not about being jaded or saving "just this one;" it's about trying to do, as Laura says, the right thing for the many. Encouraging BYBs, mills (through pet stores or BYB mills) , or any other irresponsible breeder by "saving" the one is ultimately adding to the problem. Do I feel sorry for those pups and the ones like them? Sure. Do I wonder what the owners of those pups will now do--abandon them at some point or produce *even more* puppies? Yes. Do I worry that the OP was interested in papers because s/he wants to make a quick buck by also producing puppies? Yes, a resounding yes!

 

ETA: Liz, I know this doesn't apply to your specific issue, but as far as dogs are concerned probably the one solution that would tackle the most problems is to start or becomg involved with a local rescue.

 

J.

 

Thanks, Julie. I do donate to the county SPCA (whose larger problem is actually a surplus of cats). I have signed up with these boards to transport foster dogs. I can't foster in house for an extended time at the moment due to space limitations -- three Border Collies and one cat is more than enough for this household at the moment. But I've a friend who is very involved in BC rescue - (she brought me my Scotty Bear), so there's definitely local representation and I do keep my eye out for wayward or mistreated pups of all breeds, as I'm sure we all do.

[dogbone]

I went today and looked at the dogs. Apparently this is the first and last time of BYB. It was an older couple and daughter there and the dogs looked to be well taken care of and I was offered one of the brothers for $25 if I took both. I saw the mother and other siblings also. I can't remember what happened to the sire.

This people definitely aren't out to make lots money on dogs obviosly and from what I can tell even buying from a reputable breeder they are out to make money on their dogs. Perhaps they are worth the asking prices and they have near as much invested I don't know? But lets see here a liter of 6-7 pups at around $600 each yea sounds like they are in it for the money regardless.

 

Its not the dogs fault here whether the BYB is right or wrong and the people have no intentions of breeding anymore dogs in future.

 

I don't really care about papers but grew fond of the boder collie I had for almost 17 years and I like the breed and only want another. He had no papers cause I found him as a tiny puppy and have no idea where he came from.

 

I have been looking for a dog ever since I joined this website and even made my intentions of doing so because my dog was getting old. I just never saw any that appealed to me and I plan on keeping a dog a long time.

The way I look at it is I have possibly saved these dogs from who knows what. Should I have waited til they found there way to the pound then it would be ok?

I am contemplating going back and getting the brother so they can keep each other company when I am at work.

 

I was there with my dog when the doctor put him down so I feel for every dog that is put down but is there a better way to do this. Well the difference here is that my dog was crying out in pain I felt I had no ther choice.It was heartbreaking to me to watch and It brings this grown man to tears to think about it.

 

Please don't hate me for getting these dogs and I can leave this forum if I am no longer welcome here.

[Lenajo]

You just got taken in the oldest scam in the book. "2 left, only 2 left"...then you get there are there's way more, but they'll let you have one at half price because there won't be anymore.

 

Oceanfront property in Arizona and all that....

 

Those people just did make money on their byb efforts, because they got $25 for a dog that was worth worthing nothing to them.

 

The byb type consider $25 profit indeed. And mark my words...as an Alabama native, a Border Collie rescuer...they now have the ultimate justification to do it again.

[Journey]

But lets see here a liter of 6-7 pups at around $600 each yea sounds like they are in it for the money regardless.

 

There is zero point in trying to educate people. If you truly believe what you wrote (above) then you don't have a clue what goes into breeding a good stockdog, a mutt, yep that's about what you bought, and you will keep these folks in business. How do you even know the sire was a border collie?? Why do people ask questions.....

 

Please don't hate me for getting these dogs and I can leave this forum if I am no longer welcome here.

 

No one is going to hate you but it does get old when folks are trolling. Can you afford 2 dogs? HW, neutering (or are you not going to neuter them?) flea control, training classes, crates..........Impulse buys will come back to bite you, hopefully, everything will be fine but if it's not........

[Lenajo]

Have you called Alabama Border Collie Rescue btw? A simple google search will find them. They are wonderful, and she can fill you in on the "breeders" this state perpetuates.

[njnovice]

Get over yourself, you don't need papers. You need to find a nice dog that's got a limited lifespan and save that dog; trust me, the dog KNOWS you have saved him/her.

 

Yep. Sinead was due to be euthanized at NYACC. I agreed to foster her SIX HOURS before she was due to put down. Obviously, she is a foster failure. But she KNOWS I saved her life, and she thanks me for it every single day.

 

And I think she's one of the most bombproof solid temperament dogs I've encountered.

 

Here's a dog who went from a home, to spending two days hanging outside a building in the Bronx without moving (I'm guessing her lovely owners probably dumped her and she waited outside for them) in a snowy February, to spending a week at NYACC (coming down with kennel cough there), to getting loaded onto a big NYACC truck and driven out to suburban NJ in a blizzard and arriving at my house. She got here, a terrible snotty, coughing mess and she was immediately just like, "Okay, this place is pretty nice." I think she had maybe about an hour of being unsure. I quickly discovered that she was housebroken, knew her basic obedience and liked walking around carrying rawhide sticks like lollipops.

 

While I obviously do not have any papers on her, I'm pretty sure she's a purebred American Pit Bull Terrier, and she was clearly used for breeding prior to me getting her. I guess once they had a hard time selling off a litter, they decided she wasn't worth keeping around anymore. Victim of another backyard breeder. I can't even think about how cold she must have been sitting outside on a snowy sidewalk. She can not handle the cold at all. Just a few minutes outside in the cold and she's shivering.

 

Mick? Well, he's an ungrateful bastard, but I love him anyway.

[njnovice]

But lets see here a liter of 6-7 pups at around $600 each yea sounds like they are in it for the money regardless.

 

Well, let's see...

 

vet care is expensive

hip/elbow/eye certification is expensive

trials are expensive (not just the cost of the trial, but there's travel costs)

clinics are expensive

good dog food is expensive

 

Sounds to be like a breeder of quality pups is just about lucky to break even on that litter with those $600 puppies.

[juliepoudrier]

Sure, go ahead and get the brother too. When you wonder why your dogs pay no attention to you and are thoroughly bonded with each other, no doubt you'll come crying here asking for advice on how to fix the problem. Given how eager you've proven yourself to be to accept advice in this situation, don't be surprised when no one comes to your aid. (It's just like this thread: you were all impatient because no one answered you right away. I had read your post, but had nothing good to say about the breeder, and having been here many years, knew just how this would play out and so at first figured I wouldn't bother to answer. What's the point, after all? And I now see that my first impulse was the right one. While you pat yourself on the back for "saving" this pup, just remember that you have simultaneously encouraged the breeding of many more. Do you really think that the people who had that litter are going to be completely honest with you about their future plans? Really? Did they mention the bitch was now spayed? If not, you can bet your bottom dollar there will be more pups. And who knows what fates those pups will suffer? But of course that won't concern you because you've already gotten your little bundle of joy.)

 

As for making money on litters, I can assure you that anything those folks got from anyone, including you, was pure profit. You can bet they didn't do any sort of pre-breeding health screening, probably didn't do vet care during the bitch's pregnancy, and did only the minimum for the pups. No $$ in means anything they get from buyers, oh, excuse me, rescuers is profit.

 

NJNovice has already pointed out the costs incurred by a good breeder, but of course you wouldn't want to hear that anyway, because then you can't justify looking for a cheap puppy. I just hope all the money you saved with this purchase is put toward neutering your own dog so that at least you're not contributing to the overpopulation problem.

 

 

J.

[ejano]

I am contemplating going back and getting the brother so they can keep each other company when I am at work.

 

Please don't hate me for getting these dogs and I can leave this forum if I am no longer welcome here.

 

 

We've all experienced the heart ache of losing a beloved companion and feel that sadness with you. It's an emptiness that can never be filled. Departing from the BYB debate for a moment..... You just happened to introduce a difficult subject... (mostly, we were debating amongst each other, I think).

 

Please don't think I'm jumping on you again when I write this, as I am only sharing my own experience. Two pups from the same littler is a huge challenge....they don't keep each other company like two kittens might -- it's a whole different dynamic. I'm raising two male siblings and it's about six times as much work as one pup. We had lost my dog under circumstances too complicated to relate now, and had signed up for a pup from a reputable breeder...we ended up taking a second pup as well but before we did so, I researched the whole issue very carefully, talked with experts, mapped out a plan, thought I was ready....then we brought the two home and life did not go according to plan. First thing I learned is that one person cannot keep track of two puppies when they go out to "do their duty" -- they go pelting out in separate directions....and the first thing they do is find the hole in the carefully built fence. Thank heaven for our "nanny" -- our BC rescue, Ladybug. She would go after one and hold it down, while I scooped up the other. First lesson....come when you called. Clicker training was very helpful in this regard.

 

You have to really work hard to make sure that they are first bonded to you and not to each other, which means a great deal of separation from each other -- separate crates, separate activities, separate training classes...you'll be very, very busy.

 

They will get into scrapes; you'll have to constantly be watchful that their puppy play doesn't turn into a real fight..(Ladybug was a big help here) because it's no guarantee that they will love each other when they grow up...it's all about instilling your leadership, good manners, giving them proper exercise and training.

 

They're sixteen months old today! Happy birthday Robin and Brodie! I wouldn't trade the experience for the world and I look forward to each new day and learning what they have to teach me....Robin and Brodie are wonderful additions to our family -- they are the first pups my husband and I have each owned since we were children - and the first registered ABCA BCs that we've owned. But, boy are they a lot of work.

 

Liz

[ThunderHill]

Sorry about the topic hijack, but is this accurate? I see animals listed for sale all the time in the Farm & Garden section of CL. Mostly livestock (horses, goats, sheep, chickens, pigs) -- perhaps that's the distinction. I don't mean to be contentious, I am truly curious.

 

Always in search of education,

 

Liz S in South Central PA

 

 

The term adoption fee is probably used because craigslists prohibits selling animals. Adoption fees okay, but no sales.

[juliepoudrier]

I think you are allowed to sell livestock but not pets. I know that someone who tried to post LGDs for sale had their ad rejected. I think if you're "adopting" out pets, the amount you ask for has to be below a certain dollar figure.

 

J.

[ThunderHill]

That would explain it. Many thanks, Julie.

 

Apologies again for the topic detour.

 

Liz SinSCPA (not to be confused with any of the other Lizzes here)

[ejano]

Yep. Sinead was due to be euthanized at NYACC. I agreed to foster her SIX HOURS before she was due to put down. Obviously, she is a foster failure. But she KNOWS I saved her life, and she thanks me for it every single day.

 

And I think she's one of the most bombproof solid temperament dogs I've encountered.

 

Here's a dog who went from a home, to spending two days hanging outside a building in the Bronx without moving (I'm guessing her lovely owners probably dumped her and she waited outside for them) in a snowy February, to spending a week at NYACC (coming down with kennel cough there), to getting loaded onto a big NYACC truck and driven out to suburban NJ in a blizzard and arriving at my house. She got here, a terrible snotty, coughing mess and she was immediately just like, "Okay, this place is pretty nice." I think she had maybe about an hour of being unsure. I quickly discovered that she was housebroken, knew her basic obedience and liked walking around carrying rawhide sticks like lollipops.

 

While I obviously do not have any papers on her, I'm pretty sure she's a purebred American Pit Bull Terrier, and she was clearly used for breeding prior to me getting her. I guess once they had a hard time selling off a litter, they decided she wasn't worth keeping around anymore. Victim of another backyard breeder. I can't even think about how cold she must have been sitting outside on a snowy sidewalk. She can not handle the cold at all. Just a few minutes outside in the cold and she's shivering.

 

Mick? Well, he's an ungrateful bastard, but I love him anyway.

 

 

Years ago, we got our BC mix, Lucky because there had been a mix up in the paperwork and another dog had been euthanized in her place...fortunate for her and us. We had her and Willie, a Terrier mix for about 13 years. They were each about six moths to a year old. Ladybug would likely have been sent to BC rescue because a network was in place by the time she came around, but she had been turned in just a day or two before Christmas and we picked her up the day after Christmas. Again, fortunate us. She healed our hearts after losing Lucky and Willie so close together. We've always had a "good draw" from the pound....just looked at the dog for five minutes and brought it home...

 

I guess there's no doubt about which Liz I am...

[MrSnappy]

A few years ago I took in a whole litter of pups from an "accidental" mating. "Oh these are not our dogs, a friend moved out of province and left them with us and we didn't even know the female wasn't spayed. Thank you so much for taking the litter" yadda yadda yadda. We took all but one, that they gave away at a gas station on the drive down here. I offered to neuter the parents but "oh that's so nice of you, thanks so much, but we are going to take care of it, we really don't want anymore litters."

 

Less than a year later guess what I ended up with? Another litter from the same parents. This time I COULDN'T neuter the parents for them, because they had given them away already. They are probably out there producing more pups somewhere, but thank doG none of them are coming my way.

 

A year after that a shelter contacted me and gave me - guess what? - the missing pup from that first litter that the owner had dumped there.

 

It's not even about the money for some of them, it's just plain ignorance, wilful disregard for their actions, or something even more intangible. No money exchanged hands for these pups, and I would have altered the parents at my own expense, but still the puppy-making continued.

 

There is a horrible, terrible BYB in WA and we used to take her unsold pups from her because "otherwise her husband shot or drowned them" and we couldn't bear the thought of it. He didn't like her breeding dogs. She didn't really make any money off 'em as she sold the pups at flea markets or in the free classifieds for as little as $20 apiece, sometimes offered us whole litters. After a while, I stopped taking her pups because her sob story could no longer override my ethics ... I did not feel any better at being a convenient dumping ground for her compulsive breeding than I did about the idea of her husband drowning puppies. Don't ask me why someone marries someone who would drown puppies, and don't ask me why someone would continue to breed pups she lost money on, or who would be drowned often. That's a whole mess of effed up brain cells I cannot fathom. But I CAN not be a part of it, and I'm not.

 

If you are not part of the solution, you are the freakin' problem. By purchasing a pup off CL from a crappy BYB clearing out unsold puppies, you became part of the problem. End of discussion. No sympathy from me, sorry. I used it all up on the 700 or so dogs that have come through my rescue in the last decade, and the 2000 or so more I couldn't take because I was full of other dogs.

 

RDM

[Ms.DaisyDuke]

It looks like the OP is long gone and the deed is done, but FWIW, I got that cheap-o puppy too. This was years ago, before I knew really what a BYB was. Mostly because my best friend/room-mate just had to have a dog. She thought having a border collie would be awesome, so I went a long to see the litter and we came home with one. We didn't pay much for a pup with no vet care (red flag?). We saw the mom, she was a nice enough dog, but kinda skittish of strangers (red flag?)... dad wasn't around (red flag?)... hmmmm.

 

The dog grew up to have serious fear issues, no doubt mostly genetic. Although, I did not have any friends with dogs, I may have been partially to blame, but I do believe genetics came into play big time. She was "aggressive" to strange people and other dogs and to this day, I can not have her around small children. 6 years of hard work on my part and she's kinda normal. I've learned the hard way as I'm sure you will too. Especially with two.

 

FFW to present day and the second dog I got was from a reputable rescue, after taking over a year to look, he has a rock solid temperament and is exactly what I was looking for. There's something to be said for waiting and letting the right dog find you.

 

I'm afraid to know what's happened to the rest of Daisy's litter and I am 100% certain she'd have been eventually euthanize if I hadn't gotten her, but it is not a mistake I will ever make again. Sometimes I'm really ashamed to admit where my dog came from because I should have known better.