fear aggressive boy

[nonaberry]

Hello everyone,

this is my first posting so please forgive any inadvertent faux pas on my part and also the length of this posting. I am hoping for advice or input from any/all who care to comment....

Here's my situation:

7 weeks ago we took in a 9 m/o male, neutered bc. Brodie had been through 5 homes in 2 weeks and was going to be euthanized for fear aggression. His story is that he was bought at 6 weeks by a 75 y/o lady who was kind to him but didn't know much about dog management. She kept him outside all day long/inside at night. He was a fearful pup from a fearful mom and was not socialized or formally trained. His backyard had a chain link fence with a footpath to a farmers market on the other side so lots of strangers walking by. He began by barking excessively, which progressed to lunging and body slamming the fence and, finally, by 7 months he was attacking almost all guests to the house and property. This was exacerbated by a nasty tenant the lady had on her property who teased Brodie when he was tied up outside, repeatedly 'hosing' him in the face, throwing things at him, yelling etc.. the tenant was evicted after two months....Brodie remained affectionate and eager to please towards his owner but unmanageable with strangers. Two days after his joining us he was diagnosed with aspiration pneumonia....presumable from face hosing.

 

During my first meeting with Brodie he slunk forward to accept a treat then darted in and bit my hand, then ran and hid. I hung tight, ignored him and within 10 minutes he was in my lap, very submissive. His introduction to all other members of my family has followed a similar pattern. He is friendly, playful but submissive with my other two dogs, an 11 m/o female bc and a 6 y/o male lab.

 

His bite score has been a 2-3...ie repeated events, no skin beaks, one shirt tear, lots of nose punches and two 'double dives' that we know of.

 

He has learned all basic commands quickly and eagerly, crates well, and has been working with a behaviorist on fear thresholds/triggers and alternative behaviors. He is out and about daily with me on errands, hikes and short forays into stores where we use either a soft muzzle or a gentle leader. He is two weeks into a group class for fearful dogs where he is learning to 'touch' what scares him on command, among other things. He is accepting instruction and assistance happily and calmly as long as my husband or I are with him. He still growls and lunges if a stranger approaches him directly with eye contact or hand held out but now at 5 feet rather than 20 feet distance ie they can get closer. He has not bitten a stranger.. but then we have not given him the opportunity. All ocd type fence running and barking has stopped. He is checking in with us instead, tucking his head in an armpit when things are too scary etc...

 

Our experience includes years of guide dog training in the past, ongoing obedience, nose work and sheep work currently with our other dogs. We have had no experience at all with entrenched aggressive behavior so our learning curve has been steep and sometimes exhausting. We are blessed to have alot of contacts and help from those we know in the dog world. Having said that, I don't think I would ever take this on again. It is truly a 'two steps forward, one step back' process.

 

This week Brodie bit our dog sitter. She let him out of his crate first, then turned her back to release the other dogs. He lunged, tore her shirt then backed into a corner growling. He has known her for the entire 7 weeks with no prior issues. The only change was that she released him first rather than last as is usual, and that I had been was out of town for the week.

 

This event was the final heartrending one for me. Euthansia has been delayed only because my husband, the behaviorist and the vet have requested it. We are trying a course of Prozac starting today, coupled with a dap collar and continued training/desensitization. Are we crazy to continue?

 

There are many more details but this post is already too long.....thanks for your consideration of the matter.

Nonaberry

 

 

 

 

 

 

[njnovice]

I'd work with the dog, but you have to be able to accept that it might be a dog that can't be kenneled/left with a dog sitter.

 

I really don't tolerate dogs biting me. Mick tried it once (not in a fearful way) and he got whacked pretty hard for it (the one and only time I hit him). Fear aggression can definitely be worked on. Mick had it with kids, and he likes them now.

 

But if I ever had a dog that I personally felt unsafe with (no matter what the reason), I'd have it PTS.

[nonaberry]

I'd work with the dog, but you have to be able to accept that it might be a dog that can't be kenneled/left with a dog sitter.

 

I really don't tolerate dogs biting me. Mick tried it once (not in a fearful way) and he got whacked pretty hard for it (the one and only time I hit him). Fear aggression can definitely be worked on. Mick had it with kids, and he likes them now.

 

But if I ever had a dog that I personally felt unsafe with (no matter what the reason), I'd have it PTS.

[nonaberry]

Hi NJ,

thanks so much for your input..I think that we are also inclined to give him more time. DH wants to try and place him elsewhere if it doesn't work out...I will not agree to that. It's either our home or a gentle, permanent end to the best day of his life as far as I'm concerned.

In general I would agree re the biting...it is something I would never tolerate from my other dogs. The thing about this boy is that he's already experienced quite a bit of violence in his young life, and has learned to return it very quickly. We are trying to help him decrease his arousal response to strangers and to navigate through the red haze, so to speak.

We are currently using both operant and classical conditioning with him and we are seeing a moderately good response. The operant cond. teaches him what to do....the classical (hopefully) changes how he feels. For example, Brodie ONLY gets his favorite training treat when a stranger is nearby...either from me, tossed by the stranger or handed to me by the stranger. Sooooo stranger = favorite yummy treat...amazingly it seems to be working.

He's progressed from being too tense (poised to attack) to touch the treat to accepting it roughly and anxiously to doing sits and downs for strangers for rewards. He will still revert to default aggression if the stranger tries to confront or pet him.

 

I actually did board him 2 weeks ago for 4 days. Interestingly the staff reported 1 day of air snapping and cowering in the corner of the kennel..then only friendly boy behavior.. ...this is what gives me (false?) hope...

[njnovice]

Hi NJ,

thanks so much for your input..I think that we are also inclined to give him more time. DH wants to try and place him elsewhere if it doesn't work out...I will not agree to that. It's either our home or a gentle, permanent end to the best day of his life as far as I'm concerned.

In general I would agree re the biting...it is something I would never tolerate from my other dogs. The thing about this boy is that he's already experienced quite a bit of violence in his young life, and has learned to return it very quickly. We are trying to help him decrease his arousal response to strangers and to navigate through the red haze, so to speak.

We are currently using both operant and classical conditioning with him and we are seeing a moderately good response. The operant cond. teaches him what to do....the classical (hopefully) changes how he feels. For example, Brodie ONLY gets his favorite training treat when a stranger is nearby...either from me, tossed by the stranger or handed to me by the stranger. Sooooo stranger = favorite yummy treat...amazingly it seems to be working.

He's progressed from being too tense (poised to attack) to touch the treat to accepting it roughly and anxiously to doing sits and downs for strangers for rewards. He will still revert to default aggression if the stranger tries to confront or pet him.

 

I actually did board him 2 weeks ago for 4 days. Interestingly the staff reported 1 day of air snapping and cowering in the corner of the kennel..then only friendly boy behavior.. ...this is what gives me (false?) hope...

 

Yeah, I definitely disagreeing with rehoming dogs with human aggression issues (fear based or not). I hope the training works out for you. I grew up with a German Shepherd (we had her from when I was 10 to 21) that was very aggressive towards people and other dogs. We managed her aggression, but she was a huge baby with the family and never once showed any inkling of aggression towards us, but it was still a huge pain. She was otherwise an awesome dog, though.

 

That he was good with the kennel staff after a day is definitely a good sign in my opinion. I used to work at a very large boarding facility (about 300 dogs) and some dogs would just never chill out. The only breed I had an issue with on a consistent basis would be the Chow Chows though, because their body language is very hard to read. I'd usually end up with all the German Shepherds and Rottweilers, because most of my coworkers were scared of them, and that would cause problems. In a large, potentially aggressive breed, confidence definitely goes a long way in being able to handle them safely.

[nonaberry]

yes, one of the problems I've had is people still wanting to approach, pet etc after I've told them that Brodie is not friendly and may bite...I'm sure it's partly because he's this beautiful, elegant, silky bc...."how could he be mean?"...the visual impact of the muzzle helps some....Kudos to you for working in a kennel with 300 dogs, Yikes! Sounds like it could be mayhem! Here's a pic of brodie.

[Jedismom]

I do not think you are crazy to continue. I think that if you ever actually decide to euthanize, you will then know that you did everything possible to help him. You won't have to wonder what if I had tried that. It's such a hard thing to contemplate. You are already very knowledgeable about dogs, and are learning all the right things to do in this situation so I have no advice there.

 

Lots of good thoughts going your way. Best wishes...

[nonaberry]

thanks so much for your support Jedismom. Many of the stock dog people I know think I should have just put him down right away. It's hard to know what is right to do.

He is so young and such a bright little star....except for this issue, which is a deal breaker, I know. I'm not sorry we removed him from his bad situation but in my heart I question whether or not he'll make it. I know that pups with this type of problem often don't. We don't want him to fail because of something we did or didn't do. What I hear from dog psych people is that rehab takes a really long time...so maybe I'm rushing things.

He's acting a little funky since taking his first Prozac this am....more nervous and has a grim expression, not interested in playing at all, not much appetite, pacing a little. I was told he might be this way the first week or so, until his system adjusts, but it's still hard to see his behavior regress back to where we started.

My parents ( ie very loud, screechy mom) came by unannounced this afternoon for a short visit. We did not crate him but leashed him and fed treats for puppy pushups etc about 12 feet away. He was aware of them but quiet until my mom stood up quickly whereupon he barked a few times then placed himself under the dining room table to work on his chew toy. I, however, wanted to bark or maybe growl...... ;

[ejano]

He is so young and such bright little star....;

 

 

My heart goes out to this poor creature for the rough start he's had in life and to you for taking him on. Just curious....if you were having some success with the training, why start using the Prozac?

 

Aside from that, wishing you the very best from our Brodie to yours.... as you must know, Brodie is Gaelic for "brother" and our Brodie came into my husband's life at a time when he very much needed a "brother", someone to watch his back...sometimes a gift comes our way and it doesn't seem much like a gift at first glance...we thought we really didn't need a second pup at the time we acquired our Brodie....but it turned out that we did need him very much indeed.

[nonaberry]

Hi Ejano,

I'm wondering about the prozac myself now. Thursday was when Brodie bit the sitter...On Friday I stayed home to supervise her visit which went well. I had her go back to our basic structure though ie high value treats in hand, she releases all dogs in order from their crates and they immediately fall in line to work for rewards. I was talking to the vet, trainer, behaviorist etc most of Friday trying to decide whether to euthanize...made an appt. for the vet on Saturday to talk and reevaluate Brodie. Saturday am group class went great for him and he was pretty good at the vets but did try to muzzle punch a few times...otherwise calmly lying next to my husband with his head on his lap watching...no clenched jaw..no hard stare...no sedatives on board. This was a first for Brodie and I couldn't keep the smile off my face.

On the other hand, 4 weeks ago at 530 am he slipped through my legs out the front door, down the steps and bit a lady on the shin. She was just walking down the sidewalk and he came out of nowhere. I was two steps behind him but not fast enough. I know this was my fault and he is always on leash now if the door is even cracked. He was as fast as lightning and very determined. He ran and hid behind me after this event...while I was talking to the woman who was, of course, very upset. At that point he was on leash and 3 feet away from her without a single sign of aggression. We are lucky that he didn't break skin or hurt her badly and that she had no desire to sue. But we were all pretty scared.

Tonight I had to stop him body slamming the front door as people walk by on the sidewalk to the downtown fireworks.

He is two steps forward, two steps back. Our hope is that the prozac will help him be more calm and receptive to beh. mod.

I'm so sorry about the length of my posts, maybe I need to talk about this more than I realized . Anyway, will try to shorten my answers.

[nonaberry]

Ejano,

You are the second person who's talked about certain dogs coming into our lives for a reason. On Friday I met a lady who was looking at Brodie through the window of my car. He was, of course, growling. I explained his circumstances and that he might bite if she reached in. Instead she hugged me and insisted that we had been brought together for a purpose....go figure.

[njnovice]

yes, one of the problems I've had is people still wanting to approach, pet etc after I've told them that Brodie is not friendly and may bite...I'm sure it's partly because he's this beautiful, elegant, silky bc...."how could he be mean?"...the visual impact of the muzzle helps some....Kudos to you for working in a kennel with 300 dogs, Yikes! Sounds like it could be mayhem! Here's a pic of brodie.

 

He's a pretty dog. I'd keep working with him. It sounds like you're making progress. Personally, I'd do a basket muzzle over a soft one though. Dogs can open up their mouths and drink with those. I loved working at the kennel, but the pay was terrible. But it was a really rewarding job. Some dogs might just be there for a day or so, but I'd get to bond with them. Some really couldn't care less about the handler, and others were just totally looking for a friend. It was built into our schedule so that we had time to give to dogs that wanted it. It was a high-end place and we'd get clients who would spend hundreds basically just to avoid having a dog. I always felt bad for those dogs, but they tended to get spoiled by the staff.

 

Seriously, Mick was HELL for a couple years, but I've turned him into a generally productive member of society. I just feel terrible because Sinead (my pit bull) often gets ostractized. The funny thing is, I would (hands down) trust her over Mick (my Border Collie) in any situation that didn't involve sheep. Hell, even then, she'd probably be okay. I can call her off deer and bears without any effort.

[njnovice]

Ejano,

You are the second person who's talked about certain dogs coming into our lives for a reason. On Friday I met a lady who was looking at Brodie through the window of my car. He was, of course, growling. I explained his circumstances and that he might bite if she reached in. Instead she hugged me and insisted that we had been brought together for a purpose....go figure.

 

 

LOL, where did this occur? Sounds like one of my hippie animal communicator cousins.

 

I can't joke too much, because I fully believe that Sinead came to me for a reason. I love that bitch. Everything about me getting her was kind of freaky, including the only reason I clicked on her rescue link.

[juliepoudrier]

thanks so much for your support Jedismom. Many of the stock dog people I know think I should have just put him down right away. It's hard to know what is right to do.

A couple of things: stockdog people tend to take a practical/pragmatic approach. A dog who bites is a liability. I have a rescue who will bite (fear aggression, although sometimes I think it's pure craziness), and I've managed him for a little more than 10 years now. Fortunately, the only person he has bitten badly is me. But he's a constant source of worry if I have to have someone come over and let dogs out or if guests are over (especially guests with children because although he loves appropriate attention from children, I don't entirely trust him not to percieve something innocent as a threat and bite before "asking questions"). In fact, I recently considered leaving him and two others with a friend who has a son, and when I told her I'd probably end up taking Farleigh with me because I couldn't trust he wouldn't bite her son, her son then confessed that he had already been bitten by Farleigh. Even though it apparently was more of a warning and no skin was broken, this was a smart, dog-savvy child, and frankly, I was horrified to hear of this. Needless to say, Farleigh will never be left alone around this child (or any other) again.

 

Because of Farleigh, I understand where you're coming from on giving him more time/one more chance. I had intended to take him and find a good home for him (he was an owner relinguish at my vet's), but I soon realized he wasn't a good candidate for rehoming. It's possible you can turn your pup around, but I don't see how you'd ever be able to fully trust him. If life is so scary for him, then perhaps the best thing you can do is release him from his fear, kindly and gently. I absolutely do not agree with your husband that he could be placed with someone else. Passing along a known biter could open you to liability, and it's not fair to the dog or to the adoptive person.

 

If you have access to a veterinary behaviorist, consider an evaluation. Also, just as with humans, one particular medication might not help (i.e., the prozac), but another might. So if he's not doing well on prozac and you want to keep trying, see if your vet won't try another medication (like Xanax or similar). Many vets are reluctant to prescribe such meds because of the potential for abuse by humans, which is why I suggest a veterinary behaviorist.

 

But anyway, it's not a failure to choose to euthanize if you can't resolve his problems to your satisfaction. In everything you do, just ask yourself "what's best for HIM?" If I know my demise is imminent, I will make sure that Farleigh leaves this earth before me, under conditions that don't increase his fearfulness. If my death is unexpected, my "dog directive" requests that a good friend, and someone Farleigh knows well, will take care of that for me. That may seem morbid, but it's in my dog's best interests, and that's all that matters to me.

 

It really comes down to how much time and energy you have to try to change his behavior and keep him and everyone around him safe while doing so. It's not a failure if you choose to give up at some point. You've already given him much more of a chance than most people would have.

 

J.

[Sue R]

Amen, Julie.

[Blackdawgs]

I have a rescue BC that was diagnosed with generialized anxiety and fear-based aggression by a DVM behaviorist. My dog's reactivity was largely a bluff, so she was never in danger of harming a person or another dog.

 

My dog has been on prozac for almost 2 years. Initially, it was sedating and made her "dumb", but those effects are long gone. The drug has not affected her drives (herding, predation) at all--or if it has, I would hate to see her off the drug.

 

The prozac was not a cure all; it basically leveled her out, which allowed me to work on desensitization and countercounditioning.

 

When the prozac was initially prescribed , the vet told me to minimize exposure of my dog to her triggers and essentially keep her home for 6 weeks. This allows the stress hormones to disapate and the prozac to reach therapeutic levels. Also, as much as we would like to think otherwise, aggressive behavior is very reinforcing to the dog (and some people, I guess). So, the idea is that the dog gets out of practice of performing these very reinforcing behaviors. If I were you, I would withdraw from the group classes for now and really try to minimize her exposure to strangers. The dog's triggers will ultimately be re-introduced, but in a structured, controlled manner. Working privately with the RIGHT trainer will be very helpful.

 

Although I will never realize my goal of competing in agility with this dog, she has still enriched my life in many ways and working with her has been extremely rewarding. I completely agree with Julie in that these dogs will always have to be managed and can never be trusted around their old triggers.

 

Also, working with these dogs is like peeling away an onion. As you go along, new behaviors, some of which may be undesirable may emerge.

 

Some good resources are:

 

Control Unleashed by Leslie McDevitt

Aggression in Dogs by Brenda Aloff

Bringing Light To Shadow by Pam Dennison (about a BC)

Click to Calm by Emma Parsons

[ejano]

Hi Ejano,

I'm wondering about the prozac myself now.

I just don't know much about it....it was suggested for a rescue dog that we had....whose problems weren't as serious as the ones you are dealing with -- I had decided against it for the short term just to see how things worked out and we ended up not needing it but again, our problems were entirely different, so please take it as an "inquiring mind" kind of question.... Blackdawg's posts really helped to explain the need for the medication.

 

And yes.....things do happen for a reason. Even if you do end up putting the dog down (I know that's a painful thought,), you will have learned so much from him that the next dog that you have will benefit so much from your experience with him, that the gift of him will take on a life of its own.

 

Best,

Liz

[Blackdawgs]

The drugs alone may not make the dog less aggressive. They basically make the brain biochemistry more normal, which puts the dog in a better mental state to learn new behaviors. The drugs are intended to be used with a behavioral modification program, which is why it is important to work with a DVM behaviorist or a trainer that is really well-versed in behavior (be careful, anyone can call themself a 'behaviorist" and we are not talking about a Dog whisperer-type behaviorist). If one just gives their dog prozac or whatever hoping for major change, one is likely to be very disapointed.

 

Initially, the prozac had no effect whatsoever on her reactivity (in the beginning she was still reactive as hell on the prozac). It did help her to come down to earth much faster after a reactive episode. And her generalized anxiety was lessened. She slept more soundly, stress-panted less, and became less clingy. Over time, it took more of a stimulas to get her to react and then the intensity of the reactions lessened. The time frame was over a year.

[nonaberry]

Hi Julie,

Thank you so much for your kind words.

When I decided last Friday that it was time to send Brodie to heaven my family split right down the middle in yeahs/nays. No body was neutral about it. Some are tired from all the work, some think he just needs more time. It was my husband really whose quiet protest tipped the scale. I was glad afterward that we had decided to give him more time as he surprised me this weekend with his awesome attitude.

I'm not sure yet how far my family is willing to go re long term management. Brodie is not difficult to crate when we have company. We usually allow him out to say hello (from a distance)for a short period of time. He is either on leash or in my husbands arms and has done well in settling down with a chew toy at a distance from the guest. We don't push it and always remove him while he is still calm.

The scary time is when my son comes home with a friend. I don't know they're coming, dogs are out and there is an excited meet and greet at the front door. Brodie is aroused by this, of course. He has twice lunged at someone, twice come up and licked them then trotted away. If we know someone is coming he is leashed or crated before we open the door. We are working with my son about ringing the doorbell etc. with only partial success. AND we need to work on our front stuff with all the dogs. They're not horrible..no jumping or anything, but I would prefer them to line up quietly and come forward one at a time (in order by age) for a polite greeting

[nonaberry]

Hi Blackdawgs,

thank you so much for your insights. I should have come onto the boards sooner with my issues....it is so helpful to hear from other people who have been down this path.

The Prozac might be a moot point. Brodie refused to eat today. Coaxing and hand feeding got him to take a few bites of breakfast. He took his prozac then spit it out. Half an hour later we tried again. This time he took it but vomited it up after 5 minutes. Hmmmmm.....I am a critical care nurse and fairly familiar with the concept of steady serum levels. Not sure how easily we'll be able to attain this....we'll see.

I'm reluctant to remove him from his class because he clearly enjoys it so much. It is surprising that he's had no 'episodes' while there but what I see is a nice, polite excitement level while in school. He is upbeat all day after a class. They do not push any interaction between trainers and dogs, in fact they set up visual barriers so the dogs cannot see each other or the other handlers. We will keep an eye on it, however.

I have also been reading "bringing shadow to light" and also "the Cautious Canine"..."Control unleashed" is on back order but I hope to get it soon.

Here is a pic of my little Clementine when she was 6 months old:

Nonaberry

[Cody & Duchess]

1) Thank you for giving him a chance.

2) 7 weeks in not a long time. Your dog needs to learn that you will manage the situation for him.

3) Explain to your son he needs to call you before he shows up with friends ( it seems that every kid has a cellphone ) or work with him to crate the dog while his friends are outside. Reward the dog with a great treat for a good crating.

4) I have worked with somewhat aggressive dogs. You need to spend a lot of time getting them to bond with you. Find a fun activity that they can be good at ( frisbee, agility, etc) that should build confidence. Always give full attention to your dog. He is always sending messages - you don't want to miss the one that is really important. A lot of times the dog has given clear signals to please stop doing something and their human is just not listening.

5) Try to stay calm and strong - you won't accept even a threat of biting - time out the dog immediately when signs show. Handle is calmly - try to be the boss and communicate that is just not acceptable. But don't be a big scary human - all that will do is confirm he was right to be alarmed in the first place. Remember - you will need a lot of patience- but sometimes the dog learns to trust again and find the world not such a scary place. Unfortunately, even the best efforts sometimes fail. Good luck.

[nonaberry]

thanks Cody and Duchess,

yes, the son thing needs work...

It's funny but Brodie seemed to bond with us immediately. I can do anything to him handling-wise and he will tolerate it. He's a big baby with all family members. I felt it was a step forward when he stopped fence running/barking. He now comes to 'tell us' that something is disturbing. He tells on people/things frequently and then we go check it out together, if he's willing.

His early signs are subtle but usually noticeable. They include slight jaw clenching, a worried stare....sometimes just a heightened focus or stillness. Growling is a late sign and precedes lunging.

My heartfelt thanks to everyone for your comments and input. Your encouragements, tips and assessments help me to feel that an ongoing effort is very worthwhile.

[Sue R]

You have a good start by seeing that you can read his body language when he is beginning to be uncomfortable. Too many people feel that a dog did something "out of the blue" when the clues were there all along but they were not noticing them as they can be quite subtle.

 

I have nothing to add but to admire you for your efforts and wish you the best of luck - you've received a great deal of good advice here already.

 

Best wishes!

[juliepoudrier]

Nonaberry,

Obviously I don't know how your house is arranged/designed, but is it possible to block access to the front door area for all dogs? With a baby gate (even one of those permanent walk-through type gates)? At least then if your son or anyone else suprises you by showing up, Brodie won't be able to get to the people immediately, which would allow you to get there and manage the situation before anything spirals out of control.

 

I know kids can be tough, and I guess it depends on what your son's vote was with respect to the dog, but if he was one who voted to keep trying, then maybe he needs to truly understand what his carelessness could mean for Brodie: death. If he was a nay vote, then his (your son's) behavior might be related to that, in which case you'll have no choice but to be extra vigilant since you won't be able to count on your son to cooperate.

 

Another thing: If your husband is holding Brodie in his arms when people come, it's possible that meet and greets at the front door are taking on a huge significance for him (because y'all are making it significant), which then of course increases his arousal. A better approach might be to teach the dogs to stay away from the door and all incoming people (i.e., teach them to go to a particular spot, like the kitchen, whenever they hear the front door open or doorbell ring) and come out and greet only when invited to do so. This would help solve any melee-type atmosphere that is being created when people come in the door. Just remember that if people coming in the door = excitement or some sort of special reaction from you and your husband, then Brodie is going to take that to mean that someone coming to the door = excitement (which will translate into arousal and possibly escalation into his other bad behaviors).

 

J.

[Harlow]

Good luck with your dog I really hope things will work out