blackacre Posted May 29, 2003 Report Share Posted May 29, 2003 I have a 9 month old Kelpie that I have started on sheep. Despite what I have heard about Kelpies, he is not hard headed in the least. He is very keen and handles the small amount of training pressure I have put on him well. I have him circling both ways and am seeing some progress on getting him to balance the stock to me for a few steps of wearing. By and large, he will work at an appropriate distance with a few reminders and does not abuse the stock if he ends up in a tight spot. He has no trouble getting stock off the fence in the round pen and can do so in the larger field with some help. While he has eye and is a very stylish worker, he is not sticky at all. I have not been insisting on a lie down but do put a little pressure on him to pace when fetching or wearing. All in all, he seems to be quite a talented dog. So, to my question: I have also heard that Kelpies are inclined to give to pressure from the stock and therefore will not hold a line well. Because of this, It has been recommended to me that I should not push him off at all in the early stages of training, even at the expense of allowing, shall we say, some exciting moments to develop. I would be interested in the views of anyone with experience with Kelpies or with the type of dog described. Andrea Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pam Wolf Posted May 29, 2003 Report Share Posted May 29, 2003 I've seen a wide variety in the Kelpie. Don't make assumptions just because it's a Kelpie. Use what is needed for that dog in the situations that arise. I've seen Kelpies range just like BC's, from very hard headed to low drive (not seen too many 'sensitive' Kelpies though ) Pam Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blackacre Posted May 29, 2003 Author Report Share Posted May 29, 2003 To the best of my knowledge, I wasn't making assumptions. Quite the contrary. Read it again. So, what about my question? A. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Margaret M Wheeler Posted May 29, 2003 Report Share Posted May 29, 2003 Pam's a nice lady Andrea. I think it makes sense to read her as saying "don't necessarily listen to the common wisdom." Please don't yell at me! Pam has tried to help me many times with substantive replies and emails on a wide variety of subjects. As for your question, haven't a clue. Sorry!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Fosher Posted May 29, 2003 Report Share Posted May 29, 2003 A -- I'd say the advice you got about not pushing the dog off in the early stages of training is good advice for any stock dog, Kelpie or otherwise. Young dogs are tight and pushy because they're tense and excited and keen. The more you push them out at the early stages, the more you teach them that they shouldn't be those things. Experience, practical work, and time will help reduce the tension. The other two you don't want to take out anyway. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Denise Wall Posted May 29, 2003 Report Share Posted May 29, 2003 I totally agree with Bill Fosher. Denise Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blackacre Posted May 29, 2003 Author Report Share Posted May 29, 2003 Hi Margaret, I'm an nice lady too. Ask any of my friends (snicker). Bill, While of course I don't disagree with you, I would put your reply in the category of "generic". The point of my post was to solicit responses on how best to work with a line or, in this case, breed that MAY have the tendency to give too much and MAY need to be encouraged to keep the pressure on. How to accomplish this? Actually, I was sick to death of the unfocused prattling that seems to be current on the Boards lately and hoped to elicit some serious training talk from someone, anyone. A. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Margaret M Wheeler Posted May 29, 2003 Report Share Posted May 29, 2003 I'll post a specific detailed reply to your question in about 15 or 20 years, Andrea. That is if I don't break my neck slipping on a sheep shit in a round pen before then. I think somebody needs to list able to walk or run backwards in all conditions while responding to your dog's performance of a task that you only half-understand as a pre-requisite for owning a working stockdog. I love this so much and I might have a place to practice too. All is right with the world! Oh and nice is....nice. Smart about stockdogs and a smartass to boot is invaluable! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blackacre Posted May 29, 2003 Author Report Share Posted May 29, 2003 Originally posted by Margaret M Wheeler:Oh and nice is....nice. Smart about stockdogs and a smartass to boot is invaluable! OK, now you're getting closer to how my friends would ACTUALLY describe me. Anyway, since we ARE on the subject of starting young dogs, tell us about your experiences with Nell. Andrea Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Margaret M Wheeler Posted May 29, 2003 Report Share Posted May 29, 2003 Wooo Hooo! Fingerscrossed, knockonwood, Heavenlymotherfather hear my prayer I won't ruin her. That said, we thought she would come in all rough and tough and have to be sat on. Instead she was quiet and serious and wanted to know what I wanted. Unfortunately, she wanted me to handle and didn't want anyone else so that has slowed things up a bit. My forever blessed teacher has watched her like a hawk from the sidelines though so in spite of me Miss Nellie has made good progress. She always wanted to head so we have worked on getting her to go around them a lot. She will stand behind me and hold them at the fence if I don't keep my head out of my butt. So last lesson, she did this and so my instructor had me go back to taking her by the collar and sending her around. After a short bit of that, it suddenly clicked in with me how to shuuush her around them, then back up, block her with the wand and say her name at the balance point. Then I got the hang of walking straight back long enough and then turning just a bit so that i didn't have her figure eighting and running in circles all the time. Towards the end of our time in the round pen I was able to send her from the gate, and she would go out and get them off the far side of the pen. Also, when I was able to keep the sheep between me and her, I actually had her laying down and walking up on command. I just can't believe this forgiving wonderful young dog! Without qualification, this was one of the best moments of my life! Well after that our reward was to leave the round pen and go out in the small pasture and take a group of about 7 or 8 sheep off the fence and do the back up turn thing for a short time. Then some lay down walk up stuff and finally we did a tiny drive (with the line on) through the gate. She was a little bit less eager with the bigger group. Instead of avoiding me when I went to take her collar, she stood and waited for me and then went forward with great willingness to do what I asked. My instructor pronounced her "a keeper." Andrea, are you sorry you asked? Do you think I love my Nell? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blackacre Posted May 29, 2003 Author Report Share Posted May 29, 2003 Margaret, That sounds very nice indeed. I am also impressed that you have figured out the shush around, step back and block manoevre as well as the changing the balance point as you walk (run?) backwards manoevre. Well done. Cognitively very challenging at first, is it not? Sounds like you and Nell are almost ready for wee outruns. So I guess we will be seeing you on the trial field in a few months? A. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blackacre Posted May 29, 2003 Author Report Share Posted May 29, 2003 PS it's best to get over the fear of ruining her or you won't dare to do anything. Border collies are very forgiving. The desire to work pretty well guarantees that you will always get a second chance. A. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Margaret M Wheeler Posted May 29, 2003 Report Share Posted May 29, 2003 Thank you Andrea. You are very kind indeed. As for trialing, I am only brave when I can hide behind a computer screen. Kathy Knox is coming in July and perhaps Julie Simpson (who bred her mother) will be here in the fall. I'm working up my courage for those big events. Here's a pic of Nell from two weeks ago, when we were just starting to get the hang of it. Hope it's not too big... OOps gotta go pay pbase, stay tuned for image. http://www.pbase.com/margaretwheeler/galle...t_wheelers_pics Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blackacre Posted May 29, 2003 Author Report Share Posted May 29, 2003 I recommend you go to both and a few others as well. Pic of Nell did not come through. Try again. If you're interested, I'll try to get a couple of Jaffe Goes One Way (formerly the Pissing Puppy) and Toby the Tasmanian Devil this weekend and post them. Yahoo, puppies! A. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Margaret M Wheeler Posted May 29, 2003 Report Share Posted May 29, 2003 Yay!!! I did it. Oh yes please! I am starving for pics of learning to work working dogs. Jaffe Goes One Way (formerly the Pissing Puppy) and Toby the Tasmanian Devil will be a sight for sore eyes. I have a particular soft spot for formerly the pissing puppy. :cool: PS. I am going to Curves now, so that I'll be a faster, surer backwards runner. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smokjbc Posted May 29, 2003 Report Share Posted May 29, 2003 Hey, Just wanted to say that one of the best dogs, of any breed, that I've seen holding a line on cows under high pressure was Roger Urrecelcui's Bullitt- a Kelpie. That dog not only held the cattle on line, but dictated every step those cows made, with barely a move of his head- it was awesome to watch. But there is alot of variety between Kelpies- in my experience I either really, really like them and want to take them home or I can't stand them LOL. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blackacre Posted May 29, 2003 Author Report Share Posted May 29, 2003 Hi Jaime, I wish I could have seen that. I went back to the Working Kelpie website and noticed there was a picture of one of Bullitt's get posted there. If you're interested, there's a picture of my Kelpie's sire there too: CLK Crow. I'm told Crow is a really good cattle dog. Have you seen him? http://www.kelpiesinc.com/wkphoto.htm Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest totallyterry2003 Posted May 29, 2003 Report Share Posted May 29, 2003 Margaret, Julie Simpson is in Wisconsin now and doing clinics. I am a friend of A's......now that is a dubious distinction. Sweet and nice? Glad to see that Fosher is still alive. I will put my 2 cents (does anyone know where the cent key is on the keyboard) into this discussion. I will agree with Bill Fosher. Before Fosher thinks that I am coming around, only did it because I tend to always like Denise's advice! Plus as you know, I have such extensive experience at starting young dogs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smokjbc Posted May 29, 2003 Report Share Posted May 29, 2003 Hi, I have not seen Crow, although I know the lady that took his picture very well (Judy Selby)- she's someone who has dogs I want to take home, especially her Bess. Just before I got my new Border Collie pup, I saw Judy at a trial with a beautiful fawn kelpie, was very very tempted. I have seen Roger's Smoke dog, I like him as well, but like his sire best of any Kelpie I've seen. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Margaret M Wheeler Posted May 30, 2003 Report Share Posted May 30, 2003 Hey Terry, I was wondering where you'd gone. Then I noticed that you have/had a trial to put on up there in Michigan so I figured you were busy. Mary mentioned to me that Julie would be in Wisconsin, so Lola very kindly helped me get in touch with Julie so that arrangements could be made to try to have her visit New England. You know I would fly to see Julie Simpson and there isn't much else that would persuade me to fly these days, but I'm really happy that I won't have to. Did I see your name in the running order for Stepping Stone? I though blackacre was in there too. Are you two posting via satellite from your RV? Oh and one of the many, many qualities that recommended A to me was her friendship with the one and only ts! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pipedream Farm Posted May 30, 2003 Report Share Posted May 30, 2003 Margaret, a quick review of the Open running order for Steppingstone indicated that Terry and Andrea would not be there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blackacre Posted May 30, 2003 Author Report Share Posted May 30, 2003 But a peek at it by me showed Mark Billadeau running Blue in Open. Your debut? There's no going back now Mark. Humiliation and Ecstasy await. A. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pipedream Farm Posted May 30, 2003 Report Share Posted May 30, 2003 Nope, I moved up at Oatlands but only got to run on Saturday. Bummer. Renee is already at Steppingstone; I had to work (no spare vacation); damn, work interfering with dog trialing again. What do you mean humiliation and ecstasy away, I?m already experiencing those daily. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blackacre Posted May 30, 2003 Author Report Share Posted May 30, 2003 Capitalized. Anything you've experienced in the lower classes is chicken feed. A. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Fosher Posted May 30, 2003 Report Share Posted May 30, 2003 A. -- Sorry to have been so generic. Ir's hard to give really specific advice when a.) you're not really all that good and b.) you've never seen the dog in question. But here's a bit of experience that I had with Molly, who tended to give a little bit to stock and was not the greatest at holding a line when I started driving with her. When I gave her soemthing to push against, she would hold a line directly away from the pressure very well. I started this by splitting a group of sheep and driving one group away from the other (aka shedding). Over time, this business of having something to work against (I think) gave Molly a sense of purpose in driving, and helped her a.)understand the job and 2.) get more comfortable with it. Once she (and I) relaxed, holding a line became a million times easier. Humbly hoping that this response is at least worthy of further derision, I remain Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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