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There's 'nose bops' and 'muzzle punches'...

There's 'belly ups' and 'tap outs'...

 

Context is always critical...

 

Then there's knockout punches. Sinead once (accidentally) hit me hard and fast with the back of her head. Her head is basically a brick, but bigger and heavier. I seriously thought I lost a tooth a first.

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There's 'nose bops' and 'muzzle punches'...

There's 'belly ups' and 'tap outs'...

 

Context is always critical...

 

Thank you. It's downright scary that people think nose bumps and muzzle punches are all the same thing. When a friendly dog bumps me in the back of the knee with his nose, like one of my own dogs for example, it's a pleasant form of communication, like "hi." When a not-so-friendly dog, or a fearful one, muzzle punches me, it's telling me it wants me to go away, and it also wants to bite me but is restraining itself. It's good that it is restraining itself, bad that it wants to bite me / warn me off. If I get muzzle punched by a dog I'm evaluating, for example, it doesn't get to come into our adoption program.

 

If a dog with fear / fear aggression is jumping up and muzzle punching strangers in the face, those strangers are leaning over the dog and getting in its face - they're trying to be friendly, and the dog is trying to tell them to f*ck off. First rule of thumb is to stop letting people loom over your dog in greeting. If she "loves" people, but you still think the behaviour is fear aggressive, then your dog is punching them in the face, not greeting them in a friendly manner. One day, the punch is going to turn into a bite (because the punch is obviously not working) and bites in the face are Very Bad. From now on, people greet your dog sideways, or they ignore her and let her come to them.

 

RDM

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Thanks RDM, always a refreshing dose of reality.

 

Thank you. It's downright scary that people think nose bumps and muzzle punches are all the same thing. When a friendly dog bumps me in the back of the knee with his nose, like one of my own dogs for example, it's a pleasant form of communication, like "hi." When a not-so-friendly dog, or a fearful one, muzzle punches me, it's telling me it wants me to go away, and it also wants to bite me but is restraining itself. It's good that it is restraining itself, bad that it wants to bite me / warn me off. If I get muzzle punched by a dog I'm evaluating, for example, it doesn't get to come into our adoption program.

 

If a dog with fear / fear aggression is jumping up and muzzle punching strangers in the face, those strangers are leaning over the dog and getting in its face - they're trying to be friendly, and the dog is trying to tell them to f*ck off. First rule of thumb is to stop letting people loom over your dog in greeting. If she "loves" people, but you still think the behaviour is fear aggressive, then your dog is punching them in the face, not greeting them in a friendly manner. One day, the punch is going to turn into a bite (because the punch is obviously not working) and bites in the face are Very Bad. From now on, people greet your dog sideways, or they ignore her and let her come to them.

 

RDM

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MrSnappy,

 

If a dog with fear / fear aggression is jumping up and muzzle punching strangers in the face, those strangers are leaning over the dog and getting in its face - they're trying to be friendly, and the dog is trying to tell them to f*ck off

 

It feels that you are correct on this. Most people who have gotten hit in the face by my dog when being greeted thought she was being friendly but I have been wondering. She is the one that goes up to meet people in her excitement, but then when they bend over to pet her she punches them in the mouth. She does that to me when she doesn't like what I am doing to her, but I think with me she shows her teeth in the bump.

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This video shows why my friends believe that bumping is a herding instinct. At the very end the dog bumps the sheep with his nose.

 

Hi Josey,

if you're talking about the move around minute 1.26 of the clip where the dog goes up into the sheep's face to get them moving toward the pen, well, the dog is using part of the "tools of the trade" so to speak -- but it's not "herding instinct." The dog is being aggressive as part of it's job but please note that the dog is controlled -- it didn't bump or bite the sheep. Also, study the reason why the dog moved into the sheep. If you look at the sheep that the dog is working on, it's got it's head down and is staring at the dog saying, "Look, dude, I"m not going anywhere for you." The sheep challenged the dog. So the dog aggressively goes right into the sheep's face to get it moving, but again, note that it did not bump or bite the sheep. They are disqualified for doing so in competitions The dog is under control.

 

If you apply that scenario to your own dog's behavior, your dog is saying to the person who leans down to it, "Get out of my face, NOW." It's not so friendly, is it? Also, your dog does not have the training or control that the dog in the video does, which is why MrSnappy and others have advised you to take precautions to avoid a terrible mishap. It's not just a "bump." that your dog is giving. The dog is warning you off and the bump/ muzzle punch is a prelude to what could be a very serious bite.

 

ETA

She does that to me when she doesn't like what I am doing to her, but I think with me she shows her teeth in the bump. [\quote]

 

This is also very dangerous for you....the dog is showing her teeth, which is a stage closer to biting you. Is there a local trainer or behaviorist that could help you with this problem?

Liz

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FWIW, that did NOT look like a nose bump to me. It appeared that the handler called on his dog to move the sheep (probably because he was running short on time at the pen) and the dog responded by rushing the sheep, but the sheep turned when they read the dog's intent and so no bite took place. That is, had the sheep not turned, the dog *should have* bitten it on the nose, but a bite on the flank would be unacceptable any time (any bite likely would have been a DQ at a trial--and I've been DQed for bumps that weren't bites as well, once of which was captured on photo, because a judge will err on the side of caution). Many dogs need to be taught/shown to grip *properly* so although one could say that biting in general is instinctual (across all dogs, so not particular to herding breeds), I don't think one can say that biting or bumping a human is herding instinct coming into play. Too many people right off all sorts of behaviors as "herding instinct," which does neither the dog nor the human(s) any favors.

 

J.

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MrSnappy,

 

If a dog with fear / fear aggression is jumping up and muzzle punching strangers in the face, those strangers are leaning over the dog and getting in its face - they're trying to be friendly, and the dog is trying to tell them to f*ck off

 

It feels that you are correct on this. Most people who have gotten hit in the face by my dog when being greeted thought she was being friendly but I have been wondering. She is the one that goes up to meet people in her excitement, but then when they bend over to pet her she punches them in the mouth. She does that to me when she doesn't like what I am doing to her, but I think with me she shows her teeth in the bump.

 

 

So, is your dog ok with strangers or not? You said earlier that she loves people.... does she? If she really doesn't or you're not sure, you need to figure it out. I think you should find a qualified behaviourist because none of us can really tell you what's going on over the internet.

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Your posts after showing the video were so good. I now understand.

 

My dog gets excited when she sees people and wants to go greet them. We have spent time with stopping her from going up to strangers when we have her at the river loose. When she sees new personor even an person that she knows that comes to the house she goes up to them and begins whining to be petted. She gets overly excited when my niece comes and wants to get on the couch with her. I have had to stop the couch behavior, telling her to stay down. She actually wants to be petted continually by people, and I have to tell her to go lay down. But in getting excited she has also urinated in the past. But I am thinking that while she likes people she doesn't want them in her face and so bunts them with her nose.

 

I live in a small town in Oklahoma, and while we have one dog trainer here, I am not sure if she knows about this or could handle it. I am an acquiantence of hers and will talk to her, but my own intuition tells me that she is best with her trick dogs.

 

I am positive that my dog is saying, Get out of my face NOW. And after these two posts I can see that it is an act of aggression and not herding instinct. Thanks so much.

 

I have taken precautions by wearing goggles when brushing, bathing, and towel drying her. And I am being more gentle so as not to upset her. Her hitting me in the eye was the worse she had done because before it was a light bump in the mouth and not very often, and I have always said NO. And I will always make sure that my husband is with me when I do this from now on.

 

He has not be thrilled over owning her because she has been a problem, not with just fear aggression but also in that she has a lot of fears, many which she has conquered. But he basically thinks that she is "inbred," and I am not so sure, but she was bred to be a chocolate merle and not red. And she is overly sensitive. Also I never never felt that she has bonded well with either of us even though I have tried.

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Your posts after showing the video were so good. I now understand.

 

My dog gets excited when she sees people and wants to go greet them. We have spent time with stopping her from going up to strangers when we have her at the river loose. When she sees new personor even an person that she knows that comes to the house she goes up to them and begins whining to be petted. She gets overly excited when my niece comes and wants to get on the couch with her. I have had to stop the couch behavior, telling her to stay down. She actually wants to be petted continually by people, and I have to tell her to go lay down. But in getting excited she has also urinated in the past. But I am thinking that while she likes people she doesn't want them in her face and so bunts them with her nose.

 

I live in a small town in Oklahoma, and while we have one dog trainer here, I am not sure if she knows about this or could handle it. I am an acquiantence of hers and will talk to her, but my own intuition tells me that she is best with her trick dogs.

 

I am positive that my dog is saying, Get out of my face NOW. And after these two posts I can see that it is an act of aggression and not herding instinct. Thanks so much.

 

I have taken precautions by wearing goggles when brushing, bathing, and towel drying her. And I am being more gentle so as not to upset her. Her hitting me in the eye was the worse she had done because before it was a light bump in the mouth and not very often, and I have always said NO. And I will always make sure that my husband is with me when I do this from now on.

 

He has not be thrilled over owning her because she has been a problem, not with just fear aggression but also in that she has a lot of fears, many which she has conquered. But he basically thinks that she is "inbred," and I am not so sure, but she was bred to be a chocolate merle and not red. And she is overly sensitive. Also I never never felt that she has bonded well with either of us even though I have tried.

 

Well, Josey, the best thing you can do is what everyone else does...and what you've been doing here...ask questions to look for answers for the behavior, and try your best to manage her behavior by not letting people approach the dog (or her them), having the dog under control when you are grooming her, and so forth, while you work find a solution to the problem.

 

I live in a small town, rural area too, but there are people around. The dog trainer in your town, even if she is not a specialist in your problem area, will likely know of other "dog people" and you will be able to work down the chain to someone who can help you. The questions you have about bonding and inbreeding, etc. are really best answered by someone who can sit down with you and the dog.

 

Meanwhile, look up some of the titles of books mentioned on the boards. You will find them very helpful.

 

Best,

Liz

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thanks ejano. i ordered the book, the other end of the leash. today, just a few minutes ago i tried something with her that i feared doing after being bopped in the nose when trying to towel dry her. i had on my goggles, called her into the room and got out the towel and came right at her with it like i did last time from the front. she sat down in a submissive position showing no fear or anger, and i pretended to towel dry her. i was shocked. that doesn't mean that she won't get upset at another given time and bop me again. i also emailed the woman i know that is a trainer. i still have high hopes for mocha.

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I want to add a belated endorsement for anything written by Patricia McConnell. I'm also a big fan of her website. If you search on 'muzzle', you'll find she discussed the topic of "muzzle punches" recently on Oct. 26 and Oct. 10, 2009: http://www.theotherendoftheleash.com/?s=muzzle

 

You might also find Turid Rugaas's book, "Calming Signals: On Talking Terms with Dogs" very enlightening. You can read about it on Amazon's website: http://www.amazon.com/Talking-Terms-Dogs-C...2500&sr=1-1

 

I agree 100% with Mr. Snappy that there's a huge difference between a gentle nose touch and a muzzle punch. Duncan often touches me gently with his nose - at 5:30 AM to say "is it time for you to get up yet?" (fortunately he'll take "NO" for an answer, as I'm not a morning person); at 5 PM to say "are you lost in your work? isn't it time to start to think of packing up and detaching from that computer?"; and on walks when he lets me know "see how well I'm heeling off leash; isn't it time to give me some of that chicken you've been carrying around?". In all cases it's a gentle touch, a quiet reminder for attention, arguably not even hard enough to constitute a "bump".

 

It strikes me that what you are encountering may mainly represent a difference between how dogs and humans communicate. Your dog seems generally to enjoy interactions with people - but she's getting a bit freaked out when she perceives people as "coming on too strong": approaching from above, or from the front, or making themselves "look too big" (with the towel). A muzzle punch is good in one sense, in that your dog appears to be showing bite inhibition. On the other hand, it is an agressive response to something that appears initiated by fear/intimidation. A gentler approach to her, from the side, might make a world of difference.

 

It also sounds to me as if your husband has not fully bonded to her. I wonder... even though you're in a small town, I'd like to second ejano's (Liz's) suggestion in networking to seek out a trainer. If you could find a *good* trainer you could both work with, and your husband were able to play a role in helping train the dog and getting her to work through some of these issues - might this not help establish a deeper relationship between all of you?

 

I wish you the best of luck!

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I will second Turid's work as well.

To me, from what I'm reading is that she is offering two different kinds of muzzle behaviours. One when she does not want the attention and one when she does want attention. For you to get a clear grasp on what your dog is saying, Turid's work may help you understand canine body language better, which will help immensely. I think you should work on teaching her an alternate behaviour for when she's super excited and/overly aroused... like "go to your mat" or something and work on desensitization to the grooming separately, in a positive manner, using food or anything else she really likes. I would use baby steps though, like getting her used to sitting near you with a towel in your hands or the brush in your hands, then once she's used to that, touching her with the towel/brush and so on. Work on each element separately though, not at the same time.

If you do use this trainer or another one she recommends, please make sure they are positive reinforcement trainers... punishment based training can be bad news with fearful dogs.. but I think I already mentioned that.

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He has not be thrilled over owning her because she has been a problem, not with just fear aggression but also in that she has a lot of fears, many which she has conquered. But he basically thinks that she is "inbred," and I am not so sure, but she was bred to be a chocolate merle and not red. And she is overly sensitive. Also I never never felt that she has bonded well with either of us even though I have tried.

I know this isn't directly related to solving your issues with Josey, but I just wanted to point out that when people breed for things like color, they often overlook other parts of the package, like temperament. You don't say whether you've had her since she was a pup or got her with some behaviors already ingrained, but your husband isn't completely off-base to question her breeding, though I doubt inbreeding is necessarily the cause. (FWIW, in America red and chocolate--and liver--are used interchangeably to refer to the color created by the bb phenotype.) That said, if your husband doesn't like her because she has issues, she's perfectly capable of picking up on his dislike, which will in turn make it difficult for her to trust or bond with him. Dogs can certainly sense disappointment, dislike, fear, annoyance, etc., from humans. If either of you has a "problem" with her, she's bound to pick up on that, and of course it will color your interactions with her. If your husband (and you) can learn to accept her *as she is* and drop any expectations of what you might have liked her to be, you might find your relationship with her changing. Note: accepting her as she is doesn't mean you can't work to change behaviors you don't like, but that you approach it with the philosophy that "she is what she is and we love her anyway" and then work in positive ways to change her behaviors and you might find you have more success (and even if you don't, your changed attitude might be reflected back to you by her). JMO.

 

 

IME, dogs who are fear aggressive do not respond well to physical restraint from a human--in their minds it reinforces their belief that they are in "danger." With my own fear aggressive dog--who WILL bite, and has--I automatically have the vet muzzle him if we go in for anything. It's actually much less stressful to him when the restraint comes from an "outside source" as opposed to a human. A human holding his mouth closed would send him into a frenzy, and yet he really doesn't mind a muzzle so much, if his reactions are any indication. I'm not suggesting a muzzle as a solution, but just pointing out that for some fear aggressive dogs, the act of holding their mouth shut with your hand could be viewed by the dog as an escalation of aggression that must be matched in kind. It sounds like that may not be a problem with your dog, but the black eye incident might have been a result of a somewhat delayed reaction to feeling helpless and trapped when you held her mouth shut just prior to the nose punch. Nose punches are not good or fun, but at least she's showing bite inhibition, which is a good thing.

 

J.

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thanks ejano. i ordered the book, the other end of the leash. today, just a few minutes ago i tried something with her that i feared doing after being bopped in the nose when trying to towel dry her. i had on my goggles, called her into the room and got out the towel and came right at her with it like i did last time from the front. she sat down in a submissive position showing no fear or anger, and i pretended to towel dry her. i was shocked. that doesn't mean that she won't get upset at another given time and bop me again. i also emailed the woman i know that is a trainer. i still have high hopes for mocha.

 

 

Josey, when you mentioned Mocha's color/appearance -

I'm interpreting your note to mean that Mocha's breeder was hoping for a red merle and got a red and white instead?

 

I have three Border Collies -- and they all get their chance to go to town because they love to visit various places or just walk around the Green.

 

Ladybug, a little black and white female with freckles on her nose - people love her winsome looks but she was a rescue dog and just lets them look at her. She's not mean or snappy, but very shy and I'm up front about saying, sorry no petting the Ladybug but you can give her a biscuit; Brodie, a white factored male who has a "Snoopy face" that people are programmed by Charles Shultz to love and he returns the affection - he's very open to elderly people in particular. But it's Robin, aka "the politician" who attracts the most attention when he goes out.

 

Robin is a red tri- His coat is red, white and gold - gold eyebrows and on his muzzle and legs and gold highlights shot through the red. He has gold eyes as well. BTW, Robin wasn't bred for color -- he came out of working/trial lines...it just happened that Mom and Pop both had the red recessive gene and out he came...in fact, he and Brodie are littermates. There were three red and whites, one white factored and two black and whites in that litter.

 

As his coat is unusual in our area he attracts more than the normal attention when we go out. He is very willing to make the rounds "shaking paws" and make new friends, but if I hadn't introduced him to the pressure of all that attention from puppyhood, he might well react very differently when people start oohing and ahhing over him -- the pressure would create a lot of problems for a shy or unsocialized dog -- but again, this is only a long distance guess based on my own experience....

 

Also, my thinking would be to talk with a trainer before you repeat anything that has previously set the dog off (i.e. approaching her with a towel). No sense upsetting her, or risking another incident until you start to get some help and advice closer at hand.

 

Liz

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Hi, All of these posts are so helpful. First, she was bred to get a chocolate color to her. When I first got her she look the color of a Hershey bar, but now she has lightened up.

 

I think as you all have said in these latter posts, it is a bonding issue and a disappointment. I feel like crying just knowing that she is picking this up. I just ordered this last book mentioned.

 

Before we got her we had a bordercollie/aussie mix that was the love of our lives. She went everywhere with us, and if the beach didn't allow dogs we wouldn't go. She even walked up a slide with me in the park and slide down a couple of times before changing her mind. She had a big vocabulary, loved to play frisbee, retrieve the ball, go into the ocean to fetch, play in the creeks, etc. We could even put sunglasses on her along with a hat and she would sit in the car like a person and smile, and people would laugh. When she died neither of us wanted another dog. I mourned for 3 years, and then I begged for a dog. My husband took me to a breeder on my birthday. I had a little black and white dog picked out, and then the woman said that it wasn't fair, i.e. that she should show us her son's chocolate merles. I went to see them. I walked into the pen and put the black and white puppy I had down. The other puppies attacked it, but one little puppy was just sitting there staring at us. I knelt down and she came over and kissed me, and then she kissed my husband. We got her instead.

 

She was 8 weeks old. We got her home, and then took her to the vet. He said that she was a nervous peer. I tried to brush her and she ran away and hid. Then she took to showing her teeth and growling. I talked to a friend who was a trainer and she said to hold her down, put a knee on her and yell. I did, and this made her growl more. In fact, she freaked. She was probably 3 months old by then. I quit trying to brush her. Then I was told to slap her nose when she growled. I did. Made it worse. For a while she wanted nothing to do with me, and so I called Border Collie Rescue. I think this early training has ruined her. Later on when I was able to brush her it was difficult. She will accept all brushing now, even the hindquarters. It was the rolling over that bothered her more recently. Last two times I have been able to say rollover and she will get up and lie on the other side. She figured out how to not expose her belly.

 

But yes, we both compare her to our last dog all the time. She spends time in her room in bed more than she does with us. If I close the door to our bedroom she will lay at the door wanting in, whereas our other dog used to be with us and play with us, like pulling on a sock, etc. Mocha likes to do this but with my neck problems I can't anymore.

 

My husband makes sure she gets exercise by taking her to the river daily. Since the tissue around my knees is almost healed I have been taking her on 30 minute walks, and when I am better I will take her for longer walks.

 

She weights 65 lbs and is on a diet of taste of the wild, 1 c. a day with a piece of homemade jerky (not treated with salt or soy, just dried). But she loses no weight. I try to play ball with her but she tires out easily. She has had all kinds of tests at the vet and is healthy, no heart or even thyroid problems, so I just try to get her to play ball longer.

 

She goes in the car with us when it isn't too hot. And I have often taken her to the downtown park and creek.

 

But basically I don't think she has much of a life.

 

We have a large piece of property, but when we got her we had planned on 5 acres, not the 1/2 that we ended up with..

 

She does follow me around when I garden but doesn't stay close to me.

 

Last night she and I sat in the window watching fireworks with my arm around her. She does this every year. And in the evenings I ask her up on the couch and I massage her coat for about 30 minutes and pick out stickers when needed.

 

It was once suggested to me that I put her on a leash and make her stay with me in order to bond. Is this a good idea? And if so, for how long? While we are both still disappointed, I love her, and I want to do right by her. I was looking to have a buddy, not a dog that was indifferent to a large degree.

 

I can see what you mean by fearful dogs not liking restraint. When I held her muzzle it was not tight, just my opened hand on it to push it away. it was enough of a no in that circumstance.

 

The blackeye was a result of a lot of frustration on her part. First I was brushing her, then smelled her rearend so took her outside to wash it with soap and water, then a towel dry to her rear, then back to brushing, then smelling her neck and going outside for more bathing, then coming straight at her with a towel afterwards. I think she had had enough, but still that isn't permitted. I started brushing her daily now, and then I tried coming straight at her with a towel twice and when she saw it she just sat down and accepted it. There was no fear. But I felt over confident that day with all the brushing, washing, and towel drying, so I wasn't being easy with her, and I think that scared her or made her mad. Since then I watched a video of a vet approaching a dog for bathing and saw how soft she was with the dog. So I have taken a soft approach.

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It was once suggested to me that I put her on a leash and make her stay with me in order to bond. Is this a good idea? And if so, for how long? While we are both still disappointed, I love her, and I want to do right by her. I was looking to have a buddy, not a dog that was indifferent to a large degree.

 

You can try that, but some dogs are just aloof. I consider Mick very bonded to me, but he likes to spend much of his time alone. He's often in a different room and if it's a nice day, he'd rather spend his day outside on his chain that inside with me. He gets about a good solid hour of exercise with me every day, though and every few days, he'll crawl into bed, under the covers and want to cuddle with me. Overall, he kind of just likes being on his own, though. I'm the same way. We're a good match.

 

Sinead is the opposite of him in every way. Her goal is to be as close to me as humanly possible. She's always in the same room as me, and the few times I put her out on the chain, she just sat staring at the house wagging her tail until I took her in.

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It is always very difficult to follow up a dog that you have loved so much with another dog. It's very hard to not find yourself comparing the two and finding that the second/new dog does not measure up to the old dog. I have to remind myself all the time that each dog is their own personality, and a combination of their genetics and their environment and experiences.

 

This is one lucky dog to have you wanting to do well by her, and putting in effort to find what is going to work to make her life pleasant and secure. One reason I recommended Patricia McConnell's "The Other End of the Leash" is because it addresses the different ways that humans and dogs communicate, perceive things differently, and how to understand that what you do may not come across to your dog (and vice versa) the way in which you mean it, and how to solve similar issues in "miscommunication". No matter what your personality or your dog's personality are like, miscommunication will not make things any better. Understanding is the first big step towards improving the situation for all concerned.

 

A large part of improving communication is learning to "read" your dog, or understand what her posture and movements mean. And, also what your actions and posture mean to her. I think that explaining these things is one of the strengths of this particular book.

 

As for her indifference, I'm not so sure she is indifferent. She may be just as interested and devoted as another dog, but does not manifest it in a way that you realize it. You mentioned that, if your bedroom door is closed, she waits by it wanting in. Think of people - some are outgoing and obviously involved, and others are more reticent but still just as observant but harder to see as being involved, even if they are in their own minds. Confusing?

 

I am very impressed by your efforts to find out the right way to deal with your dog to give her a happy, healthy, and secure life. I'm sure you are on the right track and will see improvements, but she will never be your previous dog. She will always be herself, and may or may not have characteristics that you loved so much in that prior dog.

 

By the way, we and our family have had Border Collies, Aussies, and a couple of crosses. Their personalities have always been varied, and I have found some to be more special to me (and other family members have found some others to be more special to them). It might help you to think of her as reserved rather than aloof.

 

Very best wishes!

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4755378060_54a1cd97b8_b.jpg

 

4755378042_08147b6bca_b.jpg

 

Everyone has their dog photos up, so here is Mocha.

 

smithydog, i like the name mattie for your dog. i was going to name my dog mattie, but we used to work on a horse ranch and got to name the woman's aussie, and so i named her mattie. i hated leaving mattie when we moved. mattie does sound like mocha.

 

i will have to buy that book, control unleashed too.

 

i would be afraid to take mocha to a groomer. i would fear that they would muzzle her. had that happen to megan one time, and i was there, and she was frightened. made me sick at my stomach.

 

i believe that the problem has been me, my not knowing how to handle a dog that has fears. at least she has over come a lot of them: the car, ac, walking and hearing dogs bark, other people mowing their lawns. one day we were outside, and my husband was using a power tool out back and she ran away. i found her at the medical bldg next door trying to get in a man's car that looked like ours. she has used the car for safety.

 

be nice if we had agility training here. i always felt that maybe she would like that.

 

sue, thanks for the compliment on my trying to do right by mocha. you may have read that i ordered that book you recommended. she wants in the bedroom when no one is in it, and so if i try to shut her out she lies by the door.

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Lucky for me, my mother is an excellent dog groomer and she has helped me realize these problems with Mattie are problems with ME, not my dog.

 

I have to say a big "NOT NECESSARILY" on that.

 

I used to drive around the first couple weeks I owned Buddy and cry - because he was showing behavior that I'd never seen before, and I honestly didn't know what was going to happen with him, and if I was going to be forced to have him PTS.

 

It was my problem to read up on things, seek a trainer who was knowledgable about reactive dogs, and learn how to communicate with my dog, if I had time and if he didn't bite someone. But it wasn't my problem or my fault the dog came home to me this way - any more than, say, autism is a "problem with the parents."

 

Normal dogs, coddled and spoiled and trained to behave badly over time? Yes, they do reflect a problem with the owner, much as spoiled brats will arise from hyperindulgent parenting. But dogs come to our homes with a load of issues from past events and their genetic code.

 

My trainer once said something very kind to me: "Until you've owned a dog like this, you don't understand what it means." He was referring to other owners who gave me all KINDS of advice ("Hit him!" "Make him tolerate petting from strangers!" "Get a shock collar!" "Just let him go. The dogs will work it out!" "You can't let him get away with that!") that told me they believed I was the root of my dog's problems.

 

I take responsibility for making Buddy travel in the world the best way possible for him. I will not take responsibility for the fact that he's scared of other dogs (he's loads better now) or that he doesn't want strangers looming over him (again, loads better now).

 

Mary

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It was once suggested to me that I put her on a leash and make her stay with me in order to bond. Is this a good idea? And if so, for how long? While we are both still disappointed, I love her, and I want to do right by her. I was looking to have a buddy, not a dog that was indifferent to a large degree.

 

I have had great success with this actually. Not in a dominance theory way, but in a bonding, sort of "lets be friends" way. I've also had luck with hand feeding too. You could try that, both you and your husband could take turns hand feeding her, her meals. I have fostered a few adult dogs who were either semi-feral or aloof to people. Hand feeding and tethering them to me for like 20 minutes a day help the dogs learn how to behave/live in a house (some of which had never lived houses before) and helped them understand that I was a good person and they should trust me.

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Interesting post MBC. Mocha was like that from the word go, but i feel i could have done better by her if i had known better.

 

Sue, I like what you said about her seemingly indifference. That has stuck with me all day, that perhaps she has bonded more than I thought and just acts differently.

 

Ms. Daisy, I do hand feed her. In fact i have always allowed her to beg. She sits and waits and I give her a few scraps. My sister once said, of our other dog, that she was bad because she begged. I replied, "I allow her to sit and wait. I can always tell her to go lie down." My husband doesn't allow begging. :rolleyes: She actually isn't aloof but just doesn't hang out with us like our other dog did. She will be with us if there is action, like our feeding the feral cats outside, or going out to do yard work, or taking the garbage out, or going in the car.

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She is a pretty girl....I love her sweet face....it is easy to see why people are attracted to her and want to approach her before she is ready for them.

"....but i feel i could have done better by her if i had known better."

 

You get to know a dog a day at a time....every day you are together. :rolleyes:

 

Liz

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I think this early training has ruined her.

 

I just wanted to jump in to say that this is not necessarily true. Dogs can be surprisingly resilient when it comes to rebuilding trust. Usually, trust can be rebuilt and I think that you are realizing things that will make it possible for you to handle Josey in a way that will eventually foster trust.

 

I second the recommendation for Control Unleashed.

 

Another good resource would be Patricia McConnell's "For the Love of a Dog" (not the book of the same title by a different author). There is a phenomenal section on fear in For the Love of a Dog.

 

I wish you the best. It can be a long road with a fearful dog, but the ride is well worth it.

 

You will make mistakes, but if you learn from them and do better as you learn, trust can be built.

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