Border Collie Bias?

[gcv-border]

A comment on another email forum started me thinking about the negative perceptions and biases that non-BC people have about BCs --- so I was wondering if anyone else has experienced comments, unintended or purposeful, regarding our favorite dog breed? I would be very interested in your anecdotes. Here are 2 of mine:

 

First: I brought my BC puppy (he was about 14-16 weeks old at the time) to a local "puppy class" for socialization and some rudimentary obedience. He did very well with any and all of the commands. After a few weeks, one of the other participants made a comment about how having a BC was "cheating". Really now!!

 

Second: Out of curiosity, I brought my dog to a local flyball club to see if it was something I would like to do with him. (I knew he would like it, but I wasn't so sure that I would.) Interestingly, this flyball club did not have a single BC on the team. During the introductions, one person commented that "BCs are OK, but I wouldn't want to live with one". Later, I did take satisfaction that my hard-to-live-with BC was one of the best-behaved dogs at their practice.

 

While these comments are not mean, they did surprise me. I had no response to either comment, but that was probably for the best.

 

So - has anyone else experienced comments or actions indicating a negative perception about (or maybe jealousy of) the BC?

 

Jovi

[njnovice]

I've gotten a lot of comments about how Mick must be high-strung and insane to live with based on his super-intense ball/frisbee drive. He's generally pretty laid back in the house. I don't let him act like a maniac in the house. If he's pushing me to play, and I don't feel like it, a simple "no" will get him to go play quietly by himself.

 

The far more annoying is dealing with people thinking my pit bull is going to be a mean dog. I'd say a good 50% of people she encounters will walk a wide circle around her. The rest of them are greeted with kisses by her.

[Anda]

Hehe, I experienced this first hand on our 5 week introduction to agility class - the instructor had 3 or 4 Golden Retrievers and her husband had a Border Collie. Must have been a lot of built up jealousy and envy in that lady

 

Throughout our classes she kept picking on Ouzo and making snappy comments about "those crazy Border Collies" and so on. I finished the classes since I had already paid for all 5, but never came back.

[SS Cressa]

lets see it

Agility wise:

-Its cheating to have a border collie in 16ins. Since Its not fair to the other breeds.

-Distance is natural for Border Collies. No training is required. (ETA)

-border collie should have there own agility class.

-They are hard to live with(I don't think people realize how different the dogs are at home vs at competition). They see the dog "working" and fail to think that this is "work" mode not normal mode.

-people must be breeding for mini border collies? so they can jump a lower height.(Most fail to realize that most small border collie do come from normal size parents from a farm at least teh one I met did)

 

Can you tell I have a small-ish border collie. I think the most hurtful one was when one man commented at a trial "oh, Cressa enter, I am gonna stratch Gunner since he isn't gonna win". Gunner was his MINI aussie bred for size and speed! > Haven't seen him since.

 

more to come...

 

ETA to make more sense

[pansmom]

lets see it

Agility wise: Its cheating to have a border collie in 16ins. Its not fair to teh other breeds. border collie should have there own agility class. They are hard to live with(I don't think people realize how different the dogs are home vs competition). Why are peopel breeding so many small border collies? Must be so they can jump a lower height.(Most fail to realize that most small border collie do come from normal size parents from a farm at least teh one I met did) Can you tell I have a small border collie. I think the most hurtful one was when one man commented at a trial "oh Cressa enter, I am gonna stratch Gunner since he isn't gonna win". Gunner was his MINI aussie bred for size and speed! >

 

more to come...

 

 

How big is Cressa? Height/weight? Just curious. My Vala always gets comments because she's small...

[SS Cressa]

She has 3 measurement at 17 7/8inches and is around 28-30 lbs.

 

ETA: Don't really understand exactly what people have against border collies. Shelties are very good at agility and so are Terv's yet those breeds are ignored. It just cheating for border collies to be good at it.

[MicheleS.]

Get the comments all the time from people wondering if Chase ever settles. Yes, he does. He's a gentleman in the house, usually laying and waiting for me or playing by himself. Sometimes you don't even know he's here.

 

Get comments about how easy the BC's are to train, and that I need to try to train an off-breed (as in breeds that aren't typically known for working for their masters). Well, try training a border collie

Yes, while Chase is very intelligent and picks up things fairly quickly, his other traits make him harder to train than either my GSD, or my aussie. His mind isn't always focused on any one task in particular. It's like he multi-tasks. If he doesn't think things are as exciting or fun as they should be, he makes his own

 

In agility class, I admit he does act half-insane with his whining and his staring, I get alot of people giving him a wide berth. They make a point to go out of their way to take a path away from him. They also aren't particularly keen on letting their dogs greet him. I don't know, maybe they see something I don't. He loves the people he sees every week in class, he knows them, wants to say hi and every time he's let loose around other dogs, he pays them no mind and goes about his own business.

 

I think it's cheating to run a nice laid-back dog in agility! Try running a very fast, very driven BC in agility, whatever size it is. I never trained so hard in my life

 

I went through some breed bias when I owned a GSD, but I never expected it owning a border collie.

[Maralynn]

Get comments about how easy the BC's are to train, and that I need to try to train an off-breed (as in breeds that aren't typically known for working for their masters). Well, try training a border collie

Yes, while Chase is very intelligent and picks up things fairly quickly, his other traits make him harder to train than either my GSD, or my aussie. His mind isn't always focused on any one task in particular. It's like he multi-tasks. If he doesn't think things are as exciting or fun as they should be, he makes his own

 

And then there are those sights, and smells and cats and squirrels. Some days it's like "oh for a Lab who is only thinking about food" (well, not really but you get the picture )

 

And when they learn, they learn now. So you'd better not mess up or you'll have to train them all over again.

[border_collie_crazy]

lol usually just the "cheating" comments and comments that training a BC doesnt "count"!

 

17 7/8 isn't THAT small! Misty is "only" 18" but I dont think of her as small..she is from a working ranch. some of the fastest BCs are know are all from sport breeders(with the exeption of Ruth, who is a farm dog), but I dont know a single BC under 20" bred FOR sports, all the smaller ones I have ever met have been 100% from working ranches lol

[scomona]

We are not in agility but have a lot of negative comments about Border Collies. I feel like I am in the secret border collie club, Shiloh is the best dog that I have ever met.

 

We get:

 

-oh, I hope you know what your in for with that type of dog

-a border collie in the city? he will have OCD for sure

-you guys must be so busy at home, no rest for border collies

-I hear those dogs need a ton of exercise and can never be calmed

-I would never own one of those, crazy dog

-Do you want to breed him with my dog? (at least once a week??!) um, no!!!

 

Anyways, their loss. Border Collies are the best. Shiloh is full of fun outdoors and sleeps and rests at all times inside. He was potty trained in a day, sweet with children and babies and just pretty much perfect. Yes, he stares at birds- but is called off so easily and is just full of love and total dedication to our family. Best breed ever in my eyes.

[rushdoggie]

I can't win...I have 2 "foo-foo" dogs that people with "real dogs" feel perfectly comfortable making fun of, and one of those "crazy to live with Border Collies."

[njnovice]

I can't win...I have 2 "foo-foo" dogs that people with "real dogs" feel perfectly comfortable making fun of, and one of those "crazy to live with Border Collies."

 

I admit...I used to make fun of "foo-foo" dogs, but when I was working at a boarding facility, my two favorite types of dogs were the foo-foo ones (they usually loved to see me) and the "aggressive" breeds...who usually also loved to see me. Most people there hated the German Shepherds and rotties, but I got along with them awesome.

[Diana A]

I teach agility classes, and I have to say that newbie agility handlers with a BC as their first dog have to work much harder at HANDLING than owners of more laid back dogs. It's easy when your dog just runs next to you and does what you point at - but very hard for the new handlers to learn the dynamics of a dog who wants information two obstacles ahead of time and is running at a distance. Also very hard for those handlers to learn the first time the importance of really training the contact behaviors - owners of some other breeds can just be there with the dog and do handler-management - but not with a BC who just wants to run and you won't ge near him on the contacts anyway. I know alot of those handlers work very hard to become a good team with their dog, and then they get all these comments when they finally get the dog doing well that 'it's a BC so it must have been easy'. Ha, so not true. I wish my dogs would run for other people - when they make comments like that I'd love to loan them on of my BCs and say try to get this dog around a course with the handling skills you use with your slow dog.

 

Most common comment I got with my first BC was how hard he must be to live with and how they could never live with a dog like that. Little did they know that my 'phsycho man on course' was the most laid back couch potato at home. I have 5 BC's and except for the 6 month old puppy I honestly don't even notice I have dogs in the house most of the time, they're so quiet and laid back. I also have one Belgian Sheepdog, and he's the busybody at home - I could never live with 5 Belgians, they'd drive me nuts.

 

When people comment about how it's not fair that border collies are so good at everything, that's when I just say, well, that's what happens when you breed a dog for a job instead of for looks. I do know some labs who can just about rival the border collies for speed and intensity - they are all field bred. And as for the show bred BCs I see out running agility (which is hardly any these days) most of them you'd almost think they were a different breed; I've even seen some really slow ones who don't even like agility.

[MicheleS.]

I wish my dogs would run for other people - when they make comments like that I'd love to loan them on of my BCs and say try to get this dog around a course with the handling skills you use with your slow dog.

 

I have an agility classmate whom I think is a wonderful handler, athletic and a very nice person. She has a small and fast brittany who is quite impressive when you watch her run. Alot of people compare her brittany to a BC. One day in class she asked if Chase would run with her and if he would, can she run him. Oh please, be my guest!!

I never laughed so hard in all my life

He left her in his dust at the start line and when she finally caught up to him at the dog walk contact, they were off again with him barking and spinning at her.

It was quite satisfying

[gcv-border]

I teach agility classes, and I have to say that newbie agility handlers with a BC as their first dog have to work much harder at HANDLING than owners of more laid back dogs. It's easy when your dog just runs next to you and does what you point at - but very hard for the new handlers to learn the dynamics of a dog who wants information two obstacles ahead of time and is running at a distance. Also very hard for those handlers to learn the first time the importance of really training the contact behaviors - owners of some other breeds can just be there with the dog and do handler-management - but not with a BC who just wants to run and you won't ge near him on the contacts anyway. I know alot of those handlers work very hard to become a good team with their dog, and then they get all these comments when they finally get the dog doing well that 'it's a BC so it must have been easy'. Ha, so not true. I wish my dogs would run for other people - when they make comments like that I'd love to loan them on of my BCs and say try to get this dog around a course with the handling skills you use with your slow dog.

 

-------------------------------------------------

Thanks guys. I am comforted to know that I wasn''t being hyper-sensitive.

 

Diane, I totally agree with your evaluation of a newbie handler with a super-fast BC. That is me and Torque. But I love it and believe that working through it will help me be a better handler. Everyone else I started with in agility is running Open (and one is running Excellent). I am still in Novice (AKC - only one leg to go, and that has been for a few trials now.) I knew it would take me more time anyway since I am not able to attend trials as frequently as others.

 

Another example of breed bias: From my vet!! When I brought in my puppy right after I got him, I got the "Border collie lecture" -- How I have to make sure I keep him busy, how BCs can damage your house, they are too smart for their own good, etc, etc. I particularly was surprised at his emphasis on NEVER PLAYING TUG with my BC. (Torque loves tug and has very good tug manners. He drops it when commanded.) All of this with some tsk, tsking and raised eyebrows. I laugh now because the last time I brought Torque in, the vet tech said he was the best behaved BC. Most of their other BC clients have to be muzzled for examination since they start growling when approached. (although I know the vet's office is a scary place and not all BC owners take the time to socialize and desensitive their dogs.)

 

Jovi

[ejano]

Without a doubt. Every time I take one of my (well behaved) dogs out, I get a comment that Border Collies are high strung, hard to live with, destructive, etc., especially if I have Ladybug with me and I explain that she's not fond of women -- I should say that she's fearful of women because one probably beat the h- out of her for one reason or another then tossed her into the local SPCA, but I don't. The SPCA club where I took Robin for lessons was the worst...in fact, one the AKC dog shows on TV (I watch because I like to look at different dog breeds) described the Border Collie intelligence as "evil." Talk about a smear campaign.

 

I know that if Robin were in the average pet home, he would probably be a neurotic mess, or in rescue by now. I have a hard time keeping up with him myself, as you can see by my posts on these boards, but my dogs are good dogs. They are quiet - for the most part, curious, friendly and well mannered in public because they are well exercised and have read Emily Post.

 

The average public doesn't understand Border Collies and even most Border Collie books have a skull and crossbones warning on the cover "You don't want to own this dog", which is probably a good thing because more people would probably attempt to own them and then more would end up in rescue. Vicious circle.

 

P.S. -- About that "easy to train" - comment -- agreed, they learn their lessons quickly enough and they do have an agile mind, but it's worse than keeping up with a gifted child who can at least find his or her own safe amusements after a time... with Robin, I am always on the run, inventing the next thing I can give him to keep him occupied and happy. I have to confess, I didn't work this hard raising my child. . And, as another poster said about agility, these dogs don't simply want to work, they want to know why they are working -- they want to lead a purposeful life .

[ejano]

She has 3 measurement at 17 7/8inches and is around 28-30 lbs.

 

ETA: Don't really understand exactly what people have against border collies. Shelties are very good at agility and so are Terv's yet those breeds are ignored. It just cheating for border collies to be good at it.

 

That's Ladybug's size -- and was her weight before (ahem) middle age set in . She really stretched out flat when running and has such a ball fixation and when I started adding the pups in, taking turns at fetching the ball she seemed to instantly understand the game, it made me wonder if she'd had some flyball training....I wish SPCA intake forms would come with some information...not that we'd have done anything with her, but it would have helped to understand her better. She had all her obedience lessons ingrained in her as well. A perfect dog, really. Her intake form only said that she'd snapped at a toddler that was pulling at her hair, but it woudn't have been a bite or they'd never have re-homed her within three days. At any rate, she won't go near a strange woman. Our Ladybug.

 

I threatened to send them all to a sheep farm out west one day last week to teach them what life is really like for a Border Collie. She'd be the only one to survive it; in fact, she'd be running the place within a week. Excuse me -- that's my bed. Sheep? Yup, you'd better go round them up. And, I'd really like a steak for dinner. Medium rare, please. And toast with butter and strawberry jam for breakfast. That's what life is like with a Ladybug .

[bc4ever]

My first experience was when we took Scooter to Puppy Kindergarten. He was the only Border Collie in the group. The first night, the instructor went around the room, commenting on each breed. When she got to Scooter, she said, "Ahh, a Border Collie. Border Collies are anal. They'll play ball for eight hours if you let them. No off switch." Huh? A better description might have been "intense" or "focused." But, we got the last laugh. Graduation night came and they had a mini agility course set up and Scooter sped around the course like he'd been doing it all his life, coming in first place. Then he wanted to go again! Focused, not anal.

 

I also get the usual comments about Border Collies when we go for walks. Too crazy and active. Not good with children. Really smart. Now that one, I agree with, along with loyal, funny, goofy, playful, affectionate and eager to please. My very best buddy!

[Root Beer]

Come on guys! Doncha know that things are easy for us over here on the dark side?

 

I mean, Border Collies are so smart, they practically train themselves. We all know that we get into sports with these dogs for the sole purpose of keeping dogs of other breeds from placing in Agility and we just want to make it so the other breeds of dogs have to jump around and dance up on their hind legs like our brilliant Border Collies in order to be successful in Freestyle.

 

And those folks who think Border Collies should be shut out of the regular divisions in Agility are just trying to help us. Why should we Border Collie owners with self-trained point and shoot dogs be held back by the dogs of other breeds in the classes?

 

Seriously - yeah - I hear those things, too.

[Shetlander]

During the introductions, one person commented that "BCs are OK, but I wouldn't want to live with one". Later, I did take satisfaction that my hard-to-live-with BC was one of the best-behaved dogs at their practice.

 

I used to be one of those people who said things that though not to owners' faces. I even used to refer to Border Collies as Border Freaks because between only ever seeing them at agility and hearing what I call the Border Collie Hype -- all the horror stories (many put forth by Border Collie owners themselves), I thought these dogs were always intense and needed to be busy 24/7. It wasn't until I got to know some Border Collies personally off the agility field that I realized what fantastic dogs they are.

 

When I got Quinn, I ran into comments similar to those mentioned above. That they're cheating or a cop-out, OCD or crazy, etc. One of the more interesting responses was from a friend at that time who was always telling me I needed to punish or come down hard on Quinn when he was a puppy. This from a woman who was the classic example of the worst kind of clicker trainer and whose own young dog could have benefited from a sound beating (not really of course, but he was in serious need of discipline).

 

I'm out of the training/competition world these days so mainly I just hear that Border Collies need lots of exercise and that they're "hyper." Usually, Quinn is standing or sitting peacefully by my side when they say this and they often trail off to comment that he seems perfectly calm. My main vet is convinced Quinn needs to run all the time and I stopped trying to tell him differently. It doesn't help that Quinn loathes vets and is always high strung during office visits. Fortunately, he limits the expression of his feelings to hard, hostile glares and takes breaks to love on the techs.

 

Actually, I sometimes worry when I hear people compliment Quinn and say they'd like a Border Collie too. I don't launch into the full Border Collie Hype that kept me away from the breed for so many years. But I do talk about them being high maintenance dogs who need companionship, training and routine. That isn't the full story. Quinn is actually the easiest dog to have around the house, but I'd still say he isn't right for a "casual" owner.

[Lewis Moon]

Cerb is a BC/Lab mix and I still get it. Last week a collegue asked if the cross between two hyper dogs drove me insane. It doesn't....We call Cerb "Lebowski" because he's so laid back. I WISH he had more drive.

 

Other than that, the instructor in his puppy class gave the excuse "He's part BC" to explain why Cerb learned every comand first try while the others were struggling.

 

 

Edit: Last night Cerb was playing with a Frizbee. Someone threw out a racket ball and he wanted to play with that too. He couldn't pick both up in his mouth so he set the friz down, dropped the ball into the dish and picked them both up. That raised some eyebrows at the nightly "kennel club".

[pansmom]

She has 3 measurement at 17 7/8inches and is around 28-30 lbs.

 

ETA: Don't really understand exactly what people have against border collies. Shelties are very good at agility and so are Terv's yet those breeds are ignored. It just cheating for border collies to be good at it.

 

 

Ahhh. Vala is 17 1/2" tall, with 23" length and girth, weighing 29 pounds currently (but she's down a pound because she hasn't been feeling 100%). So I guess she's about the same size as Cressa, only longer. She gets a lot of "is that a border collie? She's small" comments. But most of the comments I get are in the vein of "they're great dogs!" or "Such a smart breed" or "she's so sweet." Nobody ever says anything bad about BCs when Vala's around. Possibly because she's sitting at their feet staring soulfully into their eyes willing them to pet her! (The only drive that's apparent around strangers is her drive for affection and attention.)

[pansmom]

Another example of breed bias: From my vet!! When I brought in my puppy right after I got him, I got the "Border collie lecture" -- How I have to make sure I keep him busy, how BCs can damage your house, they are too smart for their own good, etc., etc. I particularly was surprised at his emphasis on NEVER PLAYING TUG with my BC. (Torque loves tug and has very good tug manners. He drops it when commanded.) All of this with some tsk, tsking and raised eyebrows. I laugh now because the last time I brought Torque in, the vet tech said he was the best behaved BC. Most of their other BC clients have to be muzzled for examination since they start growling when approached. (although I know the vet's office is a scary place and not all BC owners take the time to socialize and desensitive their dogs.)

 

My vet and all the vet techs love Vala and know her by name. But she loved strangers when I got her and every time I have taken her there (which has been quite frequently over the past nine months since we rescued her) I take care to be very positive about it and work with her and treat her in the waiting room and in the exam room. Muzzled!!?!? Not this dog. She wants nothing more than to please people. All the time.

[SS Cressa]

While I agree she isn't THAT small. For the most part she is the smallest in our groups especially for the breed(The other Border Collie in my play groups are 20+inches, There is a 18inch Toller but she looks small next to him since he is more bulky). Unfortunately I normally have Troy with me also. And he is 21.5 inches. So she definite looks small. Get a lot is she a puppy? I get looks of amazement when I say no Troy is the baby Cress is older.

 

And yup! Got that whole Border Collie train themselves or it doesn't count if you train a border collie. Unfortunately for me that is almost right I get how to train border collie I don't get how to train some of those other breeds that just don't want to learn or work.

 

Most people outside of agility like the breed or admire it.

Get a lot of:

-those are smart dogs!

-They need a ton of exercise.

 

ETA: It just a couple people in agility(more competitive ones) that seem to have issue with smaller Border Collies. The people there just to have fun don't seem to mind.

[OurBoys]

We've never come across with any bias with JJ. I guess because he's so big and fluffy people treat him like a he's a big ol' teddy bear. In fact, our problem with JJ is the opposite. I hate it when he jumps up on people yet everyone who stops and pets him encourages him to do so and I come across as the bad guy when I correct him.

 

When we adopted Jake I took him to the vet to get him into their computer (plus his little neuter incision was starting to look red). When I told her we were adopting him, she looked at me and said "Why??" I just looked at her, smiled and said "I guess I'm just a glutton for punishment". I think she is more of a cat person.

 

When I was taking Jake to his basic obedience classes, one of the ladies there told me she thought Jake didn't belong there because he was too smart. I don't think she said it to be mean, I think she said it because Jake was doing so much better than the others in class. The night Jake graduated from his intermediate class, the instructor had laid 5 index cards on the floor. Each card had 3 commands on it. I didn't trust my brain to memorize all of the cards at one time so I told myself to chill and relax and just read one card at a time. Afterall, it was just an obedience class so we just did one card at a time. After doing the commands on one card, I would go back to read the next one. And each time Jake would go into a heel/sit and wait on me. DH was able to make it to Jake's graduation that night and told me the lady next to him told him "Wow! My dog will never be that smart!". I think DH's head swelled a little that night. The night Jake graduated from his advanced obedience class, the instructor had us put our dogs into a wait, walk about 20 ft away, turn towards your dog and use the come command, once they were sitting in front of you you had to give them the front command, then tell them to heel. Jake executed it perfectly. I wish DH could have made it to class that night because after Jake and I took our places back in line, the instructor told the class "Now that is why, if you are trying to get into some kind of dog event and they are only looking for 5 dogs and you're the 6th dog competing against 5 border collies, you will NOT make it".

 

I did come across some bias with Josie. I tried to find a trainer closer to home instead of taking her to the same instructor I took JJ & Jake too. One lady really ticked me off. When I was interviewing her she asked me what breed Josie was. When I told her 1/2 aussie & 1/2 border collie, she started telling me how aggressive border collies are and how they are ranked as being the 3rd dog most likely to bite. I ended up taking Josie to the same instructor I took JJ & Jake too which was a good thing. Josie gets along with other dogs but I found out when she's in a position where she can't walk away, she can get snappy. But I feel it's not because she's aggressive. When we were taking the basic class, all of the other dogs there, with the exception of one (another border collie and Josie totally ignored her), was yappy and jumpy. Their owners had no control over them at all even up until graduation night and it really plucked on Josie's nerves. I ended up taking a bathmat and clicker to class with me to train Josie. I use to wonder if that other trainer would have let me done that. Oh, yeah, the other trainer had told me she had a border collie herself! Made me wonder just what kind of a trainer she was.

 

Maybe if we were into sports things would be different.