inconsistency

[Shawna]

Is it fairly normal for a young dog to be inconsistent in it's training? For example, and I know I said I was going to quit but...yah right.

 

Darcy is 20 months and she seems to plateau for weeks and weeks and then when I'm sure she's a total failure she goes out and surprises me.

 

I've been just letting her "play" with the horrid little ducks, supervised of course, but not trying to actually do anything. I just let her push them around where she wanted to take them, if she could. Probably not the best thing. Anyway I was down at the barn today (I hold Grandma's hand so she can go feed the pony) and Darcy was actually doing more than staring at them in a pathetic, pointless attempt to move them.

 

I gave her a couple of commands and she dove in gleefully. We managed to push the little brats around the barnyard and when a drake stood up to her, as they like to do, she grabbed him by the butt and sent him packing. Not hard enough to damage him but he sure hustled after that.

 

So, is this plateauing normal? She may just fall back into her former pattern, that has happened more than a few times. Is that normal?

[Guest PrairieFire]

Shawna -

 

Ever heard the phrase "A dog doesn't come into it's own until it has as many years as it has legs'?

 

Old Scot's saying...

 

20 months is a punk...

 

One of the reasons I think many newcomers to herding don't get it is because they judge by how dogs compete in other "doggie sports"...our dogs are "nursery" dogs until they reach 30 months of age...and may easily take a couple more years to mature - and be trained into being useful ones...

[Shawna]

Made a mistake, she's almost 22 months .

 

This is where I think I'm going wrong. In other forms of training, you train the dog until it has learned something. Then it generally knows what it's doing and so you can progress to the next step. When you do have set backs or the dog hits a plateau, they usually don't last for months at a time. Dog loses brain, week to two weeks working through it and retracing steps to make sure we didn't miss anything, dog finds brain, next step. So far we're doing; dog loses brain, dog finds brain, dog loses brain... we never get to the next step.

 

"A dog doesn't come into it's own until it has as many years as it has legs."

 

I'll try to remember that, I knew border collies could be slow maturing but in other venues, as has been pointed out, you can work through that and still get the dog to progress even if it's only a bit at a time.

 

I'll go put a post in the backyard to beat my head against now.

[Guest PrairieFire]

Timing.

 

As Inci mentions, the number 1 thing that makes the great dogmen (and I DO include women - I suppose I could use the "te" suffix that my cultural anthropology prof came up with 30 years ago - dogte - nawww...)

 

Just make sure that you aren't beating your head against the post when you should be watching and correcting.

 

I actually mean that seriously, I don't know how many times I've seen folks turn away in frustration or make a joke or some such and the dog gets into more trouble...

 

See, many of the "other doggie sports" are missing the key ingredient - stock - freethinking, only somewhat predictable, individual yet groupthinking, stock...that can frustrate a dog - make them lose confidence - make them overconfident and sucker them in - etc...so it just isn't quite the same...

[Amy]

Shawna,

The timing thing is a big element..So is reading what is going on between stock and dog..I look back to when I first began driving and I realized now that all my problems were me not the dog..I had this fixed place where my dog should be..I micro-managed my dog to death. The result was my dog began to doubt himself.

 

Another thing I've learned for what it's worth..relax! Have fun.. Relax..I tend to be a perfectionist and when things weren't quite right I would get all tense and worry..Again not good for the dog..Training has its ups and downs..but hang in there and the improvements will come.

[Shawna]

Thanks, I don't think it's my timing but I'll pay extra attention to be sure.

 

I'm waiting for the slough to disappear down by the barn before I try doing anything right now. I don't mind my dog getting dirty but last time she was knee deep in schluck and when I downed her... let's just say I prefer my dog red than thick paste green.

 

Yes, I'm wimping out, my dog sleeps on my bed.

[Shawna]

Temp dropped, schlucky yard froze solid, dashed out to the ducks.... faint glimmer of talent that I saw last week... gone!

 

Things dry up fast here once it warms up so in a couple of weeks, taking someone's suggestion, I'm going to invent some "real" work for Darcy and see if that helps. I have a few buildings I can push the ducks into and out of and a couple of fenced areas we can work between.

 

I'll quit trying to train her and just use what she has and see what happens. If nothing else we'll have fun (I hope).

[Sue in France]

I'll offer this for what this is worth.

I think the inconsistency may be in you. You have to decide if you want a working dog or a pet. Especially with young BC's.

You can't treat them as pets, stroking their noses for no real reason, letting them run loose in the yard in front of stock with no control, and sleeping on your bed...ie equal with pack leader.... and then expect to have any control over them. They just KNOW that you are surplus to requirements. And then to put these dogs onto stock of any kind isn't fair to the stock...your dog thinks it can do anything it wants and that play is what it is really all about. Play is easier than work and pretty soon all stock work will be seen by your dog as play.

 

I have been reading a book called "The Dog's Mind...understanding your dog's behavior" by Bruce Fogle. it is a clear explanation of how dogs thik and it has helped me to understand better how to behave round my dogs in order to help them learn. Read up on dog behaviour in general and understand how the DOG sees YOUR behaviour as opposed to the other way around.

Good luck...your dog is still young enough to turn around...but it gets harder as the dog gets older.

Cheers

Sue

[Shawna]

Dog behavior is my profession. I counsel people every day on how to get their dogs to accept them as pack leader and not let them run the house. Each dog is an individual and some dogs are able to be allowed more freedom as far as pack rules go than others. I have owned dogs that would never be allowed to sleep on my bed because they would get seriously confused about who is the boss but it isn't in her personality to want that job. If I tell her to stay off the bed she won't get on it again until I invite her up. She has spent up to a week on the floor without even putting so much as a paw on the bed, this is not something a dog who is confused about who is the leader would do. She sleeps with me because I have a tendency to lay awake all night and having her up there helps me sleep better.

 

Darcy is an obedience dog first and formost, she is my advertising. Herding is something we do on the side. She is very submissive, to much so, and I'm very often having to tone things down for her because she hates making mistakes when I'm trying to teach her new things (in any venue). Not that I've ever been harsh with her, a simple "uh-uh" has always been enough to make her wilt.

 

Darcy isn't allowed to do anything with the stock without permission and will lay beside me within a few feet of the ducks, quivering with excitement, but won't leave me until I send her.

 

When I let her "play" with them it was as I said, supervised. I only let her go on her own those days, with permission, because I was frustrated and wanted to see what would happen. The ducks are also pets (not mine) and it would be foolish to let a dog run them around unsupervised.

 

When I started working with my herding instructor she was very impressed with the amount of control I had on my dog, she didn't know I taught obedience. Most (herding) beginners dogs come to her unable to focus at all on what the handler/owner is saying. She was thrilled that so much preliminary training was done and we could go straight to herding the first day. Most times the dog has to be taught a simple recall before they can begin. That's what she expects when she gets calls from pet owners.

 

So control of my dog is not an issue, I can't/won't have a dog that can't be controlled or won't take a simple command.

 

Thanks for the tip on the book, I have read dozens of others and have worked with several other trainers (obedience and behavior) but haven't read that one.

 

I spoke to my trainer again yesterday and she said that herding ducks can be more difficult for a young dog than herding sheep. She said the biggest problem I'm facing with Darcy, besides lack of talent, is the kind of ducks I'm using. I looked last year for Indian Runners and couldn't find any but I'm looking again now. The calls are too slow and too smart. They have, as others said what was likely to have happened, simply figured the dog out and are taking advantage of her inexperience.

[Shawna]

I hope my previous post doesn't sound snarky, it wasn't meant to be.

 

I had to do Mom's chores for her today and since Darcy was already a mud pie I created a "real" job for her. I let all the ducks out and asked her to put them back in the barn - they didn't want to go.

 

However... Darcy started out floundering as usual and then suddenly realized what I wanted her to do. I watched my timing on my corrections (thanks) and we soon had one bunch in the barn. They had split up into three groups when I let them out and wandered off in different directions. I sent her for the next group which proved to be trickier because I was having to watch the door and she had to push the others even harder to get them to pass me. By the third group she was doing a lot of it on her own without me having to give directions.

 

In the end I had her cover the door while I took down the hose. She wanted to chase that hose so bad but she held her ground and never lost a single duck.

 

I think this is going to work. I didn't even have to use the head bangin' post.

[Laura]

Hi Shawna,

 

Are you having any help from someone experienced? If not, I'd highly recommend it, even if you just check in with them once in a while. Believe me, almost ALL of us need to work on our timing, and the only way to really figure it out is to have the "expert" eyes on the ground to let us know when we are going astray. Even if your Darcy does not turn out to be a working dog for you, if you are interested in going further with this, working critically on your timing can only benefit you, your dogs and livestock.

 

Regarding what Sue wrote:

 

"You have to decide if you want a working dog or a pet. Especially with young BC's.

You can't treat them as pets, stroking their noses for no real reason, letting them run loose in the yard in front of stock with no control, and sleeping on your bed...ie equal with pack leader.... and then expect to have any control over them. "

 

This I do not agree with. There are MANY border collies getting unearned nose pets and bed priveleges who are still good workers. (You should see what's around me on the floor right now.) Most of us have dogs and work with them because we ENJOY them, unless we truly need and use them only for a "tool." I do think, however, that we have to treat dogs that are meant to work livestock differently than dogs that are only with us for fun and companionship. A lot of very well trained dogs have great difficulty believing that they are actually supposed to be honoring their own instincts and working somewhat independantly from their handler. Unless they are hugely keen, some of these dogs will not ever feel really right about leaving the handlers side and doing work without looking at the handler or being near him or her. That's why many well trained obedience dogs have trouble moving into herding. I've seen a lot of dogs that can do both, but in general it is probably easier on them if they are introduced to livestock before they get a lot of handler dependence.

 

Laura

[Shawna]

The only help I can get is from my trainer. That's all on hold right now. She's pretty sure I'll see a big change in Darcy when I change ducks (but I can't seem to find Indian Runners anywhere :mad: ).

 

A lot of very well trained dogs have great difficulty believing that they are actually supposed to be honoring their own instincts and working somewhat independantly from their handler. Unless they are hugely keen, some of these dogs will not ever feel really right about leaving the handlers side and doing work without looking at the handler or being near him or her. That's why many well trained obedience dogs have trouble moving into herding. I've seen a lot of dogs that can do both, but in general it is probably easier on them if they are introduced to livestock before they get a lot of handler dependence.

Yes, this is what I was told before when I was asking all over about mixing obedience with herding. The people who are doing both successfully started, (other than the basic come, down, stay,) herding first. When I went to my trainer Darcy was already around eight months and was well into her advanced obedience. The good thing was that it was working obedience not competition obedience. My trainer didn't feel that with Darcy that should be a problem as long as I dropped all the hand signals. It took a little while but she doesn't glance up at me much anymore other than to know where I'm at to keep on balance.

[chad]

A question and an observation.

 

First the question: Bonnie just turned 7 and ha seen sheep once in her life. Re: the "slow maturation of Bordr Collies, it's taken me the five years I've had her to overcome the fear she learned when she was abused before I got her. Now we have a good down, stay there, "with me" (heeling) and recall. *I* think she can learn a little herding though she may never be a champion trialer. Am I kidding myself?

 

Re: pet v. worker: I do not let my dogs sleep on the bed, that's where the boss sleeps. I always reinforce to Bonnie who the boss is. That being said, I often pet her and give her warm fuzzies because, with her history, she needs frequent reassurance. I don't believe this has ever interfered with her learning progress. I agree that, beyond general principles, it's important to understand your individual dog's personality and temperament. Vergil Holland says as much in his book, too.