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Dear Doggers,

Several years ago a friend and I were walking our Border Collies. Her dog was pulling. I asked her why she didn't pop the leash and stop the unwanted behavior.

 

She said, "Oh, I've tried that. She has a very strong neck."

 

I said, "Well then, why don't you kick her in the ass?"

 

Donald McCaig

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Ben, you've mentioned out a very good point, that "tools" like a harness (easy-pull, other harnesses will not help with the pulling as others have mentioned) are a training tool and not an end in themselves. The goal is to transition to polite, on leash walking.

 

Donald, I'm generally in your camp that it may take something more "pro-active" to get a point across if milder methods don't work - and a nudge with a boot may be all it takes.

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I'm just going to say that I would *never* recommend "kicking a dog in the a**" for something as minor as pulling on leash. Why not use humane tools if they are available?!

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I'm thinking the comment was a bit more rhetorical than literal - a nudge in the butt is not inhumane and neither is a leash pop, done reasonably.

 

I often wonder if it isn't kinder in the long run to get one's point across definitively and quickly (and not inhumanely) than to take forever using some methods on some dogs that bear little fruit for long time application. Or to just tolerate poor manners like pulling, as so many people who haven't figured out how to train their dog in their circumstances do.

 

But I'm speaking from the angle of someone who's dogs are rarely on leash, so what would I know?

 

Different strokes for different folks.

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Dear Doggers,

In reply to my recommendation that towdogs who are oblivious to leash pops get a kick in the ass, Ms.Maggie wrote:

 

 

"I'm just going to say that I would *never* recommend "kicking a dog in the a**" for something as minor as pulling on leash. Why not use humane tools if they are available?"

 

I have seen handlers in wheelchairs whose dogs did not tow. I know a Florida handler whose disability is almost total whose open dog does not tow. I know a woman who rolls on a sedgeway behind her non-towing dog.

 

While there may be a convincing excuse for a towdog, I haven't heard it yet. What these disabled handlers have in common is that their dogs do not tow because the dog's handler has clear expectations of what is acceptable and what is not. If you're all tangled up with words like "humane" or "abuse" or "Gentle" or "positive" be assured that your dog is less confused than you are. He looks at you thinks, "Aha. It's okay to tow" and away you go -perhaps muttering sweetness mantras under your breath.

 

You need a physical restraint because you are too confused, too "wordy" to tell your dog, clearly and distinctly: "In our pack, we do not tow."

 

Everybody balances management and training. When toddlers come to our house, I am careful with Luke, don't watch June. Luke has never nipped a toddler, he's nine and he never will nip one. Might I have trained Luke to be toddler-proof? If I was running a day-care I would have. On a farm where toddlers are rare and predictable, I have other training issues that are more important. The "positive" trainers I've known (and I've known some whose names you'd recognize) tend to more management (physical and pharmacological) and (relatively) less training. Hence, the "Gentle Leader" and other harnesses.

 

Those harnesses I've seen controlled the dog by controlling his snout. I thought they were cruel and some dogs resist them with every fiber of their being. While such devices may give inept trainers freedom from fear (He CAN'T MISBEHAVE) they are as "gentle" as a doggy strait jacket.

 

I believe the failure to respect your dog, the failure to ask of it the best it can do (provided one asks the same of oneself) is inhumane. I believe confusing the dog with discarded theories and ineffectual training is cruel.

 

Kick in the ass? That dog stopped towing, was better off for it and forgot the correction in seconds.Working stock these hurt themselves worse every other day.

 

Donald McCaig

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lol I have to say the "this is why" methode of training is pretty simple and effictive..works on kids too. my friends son refused to leave her room when asked..so she turned off the light and shut the door. he never ignored that command again! my dogs walk in my path, I kick out. they walk slow in my path? I step on them. they are not stupid, they dont do it again. we walk with my friend and her kids..they walk in front of the stroller..they get run over by the stroller..they learn to stay out of strollers way.

 

not all dogs respond to leash pops either though lol took me many years to relalize that no matter how many times Misty got popped, booted in the butt, or smacked in the head with a crook, she didnt gives a rats behind. till one day a few month ago she started to pull..so I let go of the leash BEFORE she hit the end. she kept going a few feet before she abruptly stopped, turned around with a "what the?" look on her face, and ran back to me into a heel. she now walks in a heel loose leash on a flat collar lol.

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Those harnesses I've seen controlled the dog by controlling his snout. I thought they were cruel and some dogs resist them with every fiber of their being. While such devices may give inept trainers freedom from fear (He CAN'T MISBEHAVE) they are as "gentle" as a doggy strait jacket.

 

Are you aware that there is a very significant difference between an Easy Walk harness and the devices that you describe here? A front clip harness is no more a nose halter than a leash is water dish.

 

I believe the failure to respect your dog, the failure to ask of it the best it can do (provided one asks the same of oneself) is inhumane. I believe confusing the dog with discarded theories and ineffectual training is cruel.

 

And I know for a fact that there are effective ways to make it clear what the dog is to do (walk on a loose leash) that do not require leash pops, kicking, etc. I have done it and I know others who have, as well. It is possible. It is not everyone's preference, but it is possible. :rolleyes:

 

You might consider the fact that I don't kick or pop my dogs cruel. but assumption is flat out wrong. My dogs know how to walk on a loose leash, I have never had to pop or kick them, and I am quite satisfied with the results I've gotten using the methods that you consider discarded and ineffectual. Those are some pretty effective ineffectual techniques. :D

 

Lest anyone think I am taking anything personally - I am not. I realize that what I have written might sound that way since I used my own dogs and training as an example. However, I assure you, the tone of this post is conversational. :D I actually find the charge of "cruelty" for use of effective and clear reinforcement based techniques rather amusing.

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Because my 10-month old pup pulls like a freight train in a collar. No training method was working to stop it, but the EasyWalk harness stopped the pulling immediately. I suppose it's different than a "regular" harness because it has a specific design for a specific purpose. Now that Hoot has gotten the idea of walking on a loose leash, it's transferring to the collar. I had him at a trial this past weekend & I did get a few comments on the front-pull harness. I don't really care what anyone else might think about it- it has saved my shoulders!
We tried one of these types of harnesses for our first Border Collie (pet). It did stop him from pulling when he was wearing the harness; it never stopped him from pulling when he wasn't wearing the harness. The lesson we taught him was respect the harness; the harness didn't teach him to respect us. He had the personality type of give him an inch and he'll take all he could.

 

Mark

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lol I have to say the "this is why" methode of training is pretty simple and effictive..works on kids too. my friends son refused to leave her room when asked..so she turned off the light and shut the door. he never ignored that command again! my dogs walk in my path, I kick out. they walk slow in my path? I step on them. they are not stupid, they dont do it again. we walk with my friend and her kids..they walk in front of the stroller..they get run over by the stroller..they learn to stay out of strollers way.

 

This comparison between kids and dogs annoys me. Children learn by having their parents guide and teach them what is expected of them. No need to scare them or run over them....sheesh! What's the friend's plan if the kid has an accident....rub his nose in it?

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Donald, you have to be very careful these days when correcting a dog in public. The animal rights people are everywhere.

 

I use a lunge whip while training dogs on stock. I happen to live right along a moderately busy road. I feel like I am always looking over my shoulder when working my dogs, worrying what people think when they see a whip in my hands.

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Interesting thread. My first thought with all the harness talk and dogs weaving, etc., was "Why not teach the dog to walk properly on leash?" (which is essentially what Donald is saying, I think). I get the idea of the harness for safety reasons as described by Brenda, but really, if I had a dog who was a pain in the butt about walking, the last thing I'd do is couple another of my dogs to the problem dog. How is that pleasant for the non-problem dog? Aren't walks supposed to be enjoyable, at least somewhat?

 

FWIW, I took Donald's "kick them in the butt" phrase metaphorically and not literally (when I first read it, and not taking into account any subsequent comments). I took his point to be what I stated above: Why tolerate bad behavior in the first place? And a swift and decisive correction will certainly get the point across (and doesn't have to be cruel--heck, I've effectively corrected a dog for pulling simply by using a voice correction). And I think that was the main point he was trying to make (though I'm sure he can speak for himself).

 

Kristine,

I don't think anyone in this thread has said *your* techniques (or any other) won't work. I think the complaint is about using *crutches* (harnesses, gentle leaders, whatever) *instead* of bothering to teach a dog proper leash manners. In other words, to me this discussion has been--up to this point anyone--about tools (perhaps used improperly), and not techniques.

 

And FWIW, if I'm walking my dogs off leash on the back of the property and one stops to sniff (or get up close and personal with, say, a snapping turtle on the path) and ignores me when I ask it to move along, I've been known to give the dog a push on the butt with my foot. I don't consider that cruel or overkill, and the dog certainly seems none to worse for wear if I do it (and at the very least avoids a snapping turtle hanging off its nose, or a snakebite, or whatever).

 

J.

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Are you aware that there is a very significant difference between an Easy Walk harness and the devices that you describe here? A front clip harness is no more a nose halter than a leash is water dish.

And I know for a fact that there are effective ways to make it clear what the dog is to do (walk on a loose leash) that do not require leash pops, kicking, etc. I have done it and I know others who have, as well. It is possible. It is not everyone's preference, but it is possible. :rolleyes:

 

You might consider the fact that I don't kick or pop my dogs cruel. but assumption is flat out wrong. My dogs know how to walk on a loose leash, I have never had to pop or kick them, and I am quite satisfied with the results I've gotten using the methods that you consider discarded and ineffectual. Those are some pretty effective ineffectual techniques. :D

 

Lest anyone think I am taking anything personally - I am not. I realize that what I have written might sound that way since I used my own dogs and training as an example. However, I assure you, the tone of this post is conversational. :D I actually find the charge of "cruelty" for use of effective and clear reinforcement based techniques rather amusing.

 

 

I found the EasyWalker very helpful when walking with Robin on a long line when he was a pup. Because of surgery, I couldn't take a great deal (any!) tugging. The EasyWalker stopped him, turned him around toward me. He got a reward for coming back. He learned to stay within a reasonable distance, and how to "check back" and I didn't get my arm pulled off. These lessons transferred to offline.

 

I also used the EasyWalker when we went to town on a short lead for the same reason. He was a world class puller. When he'd get excited about something and try to go chugging off, I'd stop and he'd come back to me. Now, he heels well both on and off lead but he's still young and if for some reason he gets excited and forgets, I stop and he comes right back. I can't say I owe it all to the EasyWalker, but it was helpful until we had to switch sizes....then I couldn't get one to fit him right and I gave it up, but by then he had pretty much learned that he needed to be beside me.

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The point of gentle leaders and head collars (or whatever their proper name is) is a training tool. Just as pinch collars and choke collars are. Unfortunately, most people don't use them as tools and use them as crutches. Which, I can understand, is easy to do. The tool is preventing the undesirable behavior (IE pulling) so why bother? The point is (as someone has stated) doing things this way doesn't teach the dog anything nor does it make the dog respect the handler. All it does is make the dog collar/harness/tool wise. Meaning the dog knows it can't pull when whichever item is being used, but the main problem is never solved or corrected. It's simply controlled.

 

Seamus was a bad puller when he first arrived and while owning 3 Sibes before he came along (who aren't allowed to pull while on lead) I was not about to have some Border Collie pull me anywhere. Leash pops did nothing, so i did in fact nudge him in the behind when he was pulling. He now walks fine on lead without issue, although, he rarely is on one now. It's been a long time since i've had an off-lead dog :rolleyes: It's a nice privilege.

 

And also, word to whomever is purchasing (or purchased) the gentle leader... You can/could save a few bucks by buying a normal harness as long as it has a ring on the front and simply attach the leash there. It's the same concept. Just cheaper.

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Interesting thread. My first thought with all the harness talk and dogs weaving, etc., was "Why not teach the dog to walk properly on leash?" (which is essentially what Donald is saying, I think).

 

Why would the two be mutually exclusive? (I know I singled out your quote here, Julie, but I do address the question more broadly to any who might consider the two mutually exclusive. I'm not saying that you consider them to be). It's not as if someone who uses a harness will, by default, abandon all intentions and efforts to train.

 

Sorry to use myself as an example again, but I used a front clip harness at the same time that I taught my dog to walk on a loose leash. He walks on a loose leash now and no longer needs the harness. Although I do put it on him sometimes just to please him. He enjoys wearing it. But that really isn't relevant. The point is that use of the harness did not somehow make it more difficult to train my dog or influence me in some way to forget about training. In fact, it was a very helpful tool that I was glad to have at the time.

 

While it's true that there are some people who will use a tool (harness, head halter, whatever) in place of training, that does not mean that use of such a tool will impede one's ability to train if one is inclined to do so.

 

Why not teach the dog to walk properly on leash? I doubt anyone here really thinks that one should not teach a dog to walk properly on leash (using the method of his or her preference, of course). Why use a harness? Sometimes a harness can be a useful aid to the training process that the handler will find beneficial.

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This comparison between kids and dogs annoys me. Children learn by having their parents guide and teach them what is expected of them. No need to scare them or run over them....sheesh! What's the friend's plan if the kid has an accident....rub his nose in it?

 

when when the child or dog start ignoring things he has already been taught he needs to be shown that their are consiquences for his actions. AKA child ignores mom telling him to leave the room..ignored..fine turn off light and shut the door. action = consiquence. my dog decided he feels like walking real slow directly in front of me? fine I will walk heavy and hard..he gets stepped on its HIS fault. action = consiquence. sheepdog trainer tried to stop Misty from pulling my swinging her stick back and forth beside her so that if Misty surged ahead the stick would hit her. again action = consiquence. walking several dogs with a stroller..dog walks in strollers path..stroller collides with dog..dog learns that maybe staying out of stroller path is a good plan. obviously one would not do this with a Chi or something, but my smallest dog is a terrier, and she has a GSD X and a Rottie X..its hardly a knock to any of our guys lol. infact this all all exactly the same principal as a prong collar and a front harness..nobody is forcing the dog to get pinched, nobody is forcing the dog to flip around..the device is causing them to do it to themselves via THEIR actions. in my case I replace the device with ME..its cheaper and much more helpful in the long run lol. and dogs or children..while the exact methode may differ the principal is exactly the same.

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Interesting thread. My first thought with all the harness talk and dogs weaving, etc., was "Why not teach the dog to walk properly on leash?"

You're right, Julie. JJ should be trained better. And we work on it every time we take him somewhere. Around the first 10-15 mins he's so excited he does forge to the point he pulls so we stop and make him come back. We keep this up until he settles down. (I've never actually timed it so it may not take as long as 15 mins.) After which, he does take the leash out as far as it will go but doesn't pull anymore. If he forgets and starts pulling, he gets reeled back in. And the whole time he's weaving, he's got his nose to the ground sniffing as many smells as he can as quickly as possible. And if he finds a smell that interests him, we often walk past him and I have to tell him to come. When we come up on people, we tell him to halt and he will. By the time the people are up to us, the leash is reeled in. To be honest with you, once he's settled down, to me JJ doesn't act any different than an off leash dog would. And sometimes he's tethered to another dog and sometimes he isn't. What needs to be worked on more than anything is him jumping up on people. I get so upset when I correct JJ for doing that and the other person tells me "That's ok" and when I explain to them it's not, they look at me like I'm trying to teach him not to be a 'good' or 'nice' dog or something. Well, except for this one bitch. We had taken JJ to Lowes with us. I had him in a busy area but out of the flow of traffic in a sit heel making him stay. He was doing really good; I was proud of him. As this woman was walking by, she said in a very hateful tone "Let me guess. He's in training".

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I'm thinking the comment was a bit more rhetorical than literal - a nudge in the butt is not inhumane and neither is a leash pop, done reasonably.

 

I often wonder if it isn't kinder in the long run to get one's point across definitively and quickly (and not inhumanely) than to take forever using some methods on some dogs that bear little fruit for long time application. Or to just tolerate poor manners like pulling, as so many people who haven't figured out how to train their dog in their circumstances do.

 

But I'm speaking from the angle of someone who's dogs are rarely on leash, so what would I know?

 

Different strokes for different folks.

 

I agree. I tried a few "humane" no pull harnesses. Every single one Mick either ignored or managed to break/escape from. Fed up, I bought him a pronged collar. Instant fix. I now have a dog that can walk at a perfect heel (well, close enough, I'm not exactly looking to compete in obedience) and actually gets compliments on his manners in public. He's good on the leash with a regular flat collar now, but in public or for working on training, I'll put the prong on him, except now I keep it on the dead ring, instead of the live ring. He gets a milder correction that way.

 

My only issue with it is when my pit bull is wearing her's people always ask if she wears it because she's mean. Nobody ever asks that about Mick. Mick is honestly way more like to start something up than she is. He just doesn't look "scary."

 

But yeah, it was a far better option for me than getting pulled around or dealing with ineffective harnesses/methods.

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Why would the two be mutually exclusive? (I know I singled out your quote here, Julie, but I do address the question more broadly to any who might consider the two mutually exclusive. I'm not saying that you consider them to be). It's not as if someone who uses a harness will, by default, abandon all intentions and efforts to train.

Kristine,

I have absolutely no desire to get into one of the usual rounds of endless, cicrcular discussions with you. Fortunately I am heading out of town for a sheepdog trial, so you'll be able to go on by yourself and have the last word.

 

I didn't say the two are mutually exclusive, nor did anyone else. If you honestly believe that *most people* (pet people, that is) get these devices and then go on to train their dogs properly, bully for you. In my experience, *most people* get these tools and then go no further with training. They have a means to keep the dog from pulling and that's all they care about. Sure, some people use the tool(s) for what it's meant to be: a tool in the training process. But I am quite sure that many more people take the tool and use it as a crutch, without ever bothering to take the next steps to train the dog to walk properly. Why should they? (<--rhetorical question as I know why they should and will not get in a discussion about that either) They've got the immediate problem under control, after all, and it doesn't require any additional effort on their part. And before you note that *your students* aren't that way, well, good. But IN MY EXPERIENCE most people aren't your studens (or anyone else's).

 

I don't think anyone who mentioned these tools as becoming a crutch believe that such is the case for EVERYONE who uses them (your point about mutual exclusivity, which I think is just a red herring that allows you to argue your point about your own training). But there's enough evidence in the world (all you have to do is go out where people and dogs mingle) to show that most people (those who aren't into training their dogs for fun or any other reason) do indeed use them as a crutch.

 

J.

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And also, word to whomever is purchasing (or purchased) the gentle leader... You can/could save a few bucks by buying a normal harness as long as it has a ring on the front and simply attach the leash there. It's the same concept. Just cheaper.

 

 

The regular harness saves the dog's neck, but isn't necessarily a teaching aid. Also, please forgive my clarification but just so everyone understands that there are two types of leaders - one that fits around the dog's nose (i.e. Gentle Leader) and one that is a harness type (i.e Easy Walker).

 

As I previously noted, I found the Easy Walker to be very helpful. It is a harness with the control is at the level of the dog's chest and the lead clips on the ring at the front of the dog's chest. There is a slip with a ring attached to which the lead is clipped. When the dog pulls, the slip tightens, turning the dog back toward you. I felt that the the concept was similar to reining a horse and found it quite useful if used actively -- (I already described its use in field walks) In walking on a six foot lead, when Robin pulled, I stopped, letting his own weight turn him back to me. When he took the pressure off and looked up at me, no doubt somewhat surprised to find himself in that position, I guided him into heel position and we moved forward again in the correct position. Repeat. Repeat. Repeat. He soon learned that we made more progress if he stuck close. It wasn't my only trick in getting him to heel but it was a big help.

 

Liz

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Kristine,

I have absolutely no desire to get into one of the usual rounds of endless, cicrcular discussions with you. Fortunately I am heading out of town for a sheepdog trial, so you'll be able to go on by yourself and have the last word.

 

Julie - if you don't want to have discussions that you consider endless and circular, then don't. My original comment in this discussion was not directed at anything you said. You chose to reply directly to my comments in the discussion. You can always choose not to do that if it bothers you so much that I am likely to reply to a comment that you make about something that I said in the course of a discussion on here.

 

Enjoy your trial. I'm doing some competition myself in Freestyle this weekend. I hope we all have success this weekend.

 

In my experience, *most people* get these tools and then go no further with training. They have a means to keep the dog from pulling and that's all they care about.

 

And *most* of those people aren't going to put the effort needed into training, regardless. The people who are inclined to train are going to do so with or without the assistance of tools. Those who are not will seek out the tools and use them instead of training. It is not the fault of the tool when people choose not to train.

 

And before you note that *your students* aren't that way, well, good. But IN MY EXPERIENCE most people aren't your studens (or anyone else's).

 

Actually, some of my students are that way. And I am very happy to recommend the Easy Walk to those who are not interested in training, but prefer a way to manage a pulling dog. I am always happy to assist those who want to train with training, and I certainly encourage people to train. But I am certainly not going to recommend that those who prefer a "fix" start popping or kicking the dog (literally or figuratively). Why blame the dog for the fact that the owner/handler prefers not to train? Some people just don't. And, while that would not be your choice or mine, it's not exactly a crime.

 

Example - I have a friend whose dog only pulls when her mother walks him. He is trained to walk nicely with her, but does not generalize the behavior to the mother. The mother is not interested in training, will not train, and is not going to train. It is simply not going to happen. But she wants to walk the dog and there is no way to keep her from doing so. She uses a front clip harness when she walks him. The pulling is no longer an issue. Seriously - what is the problem with that? The mother can walk the dog, the harness provides a way for her to walk the dog safely (for her and the dog), the dog is not popped or kicked because the mother is not interested in training, and the dog walks nicely without the harness when his owner walks him.

 

It might not be perfect, but it's a good solution for those who simply aren't going to train. It's also a great tool for those who want to train, but need to develop some training skills before working on loose leash walking. And it's an excellent tool for those who plan to train, will train, and want a management tool to take up the slack until training is complete. Honestly, I don't see a problem.

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You can always choose not to do that if it bothers you so much that I am likely to reply to a comment that you make about something that I said in the course of a discussion on here.

Yep, it's your effective way of ending any real discussion, after of course making sure you get in a jibe about the cruelty of other people's methods.

 

Again, no one said tools are bad as tools. And if there are people who are too lazy to train and want a quick fix, more power to them--I guess as long as they're using something that doesn't enable them to inadvertently damage their dog (e.g., a choke chain), then fine.

 

But the "my method is far superior to the cruel methods the rest of you use" gets very, very old. So yes, I will stop responding directly to anything you post, but maybe you could do me the same courtesy.

 

J.

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The regular harness saves the dog's neck, but isn't necessarily a teaching aid. Also, please forgive my clarification but just so everyone understands that there are two types of leaders - one that fits around the dog's nose (i.e. Gentle Leader) and one that is a harness type (i.e Easy Walker).

 

As I previously noted, I found the Easy Walker to be very helpful. It is a harness with the control is at the level of the dog's chest and the lead clips on the ring at the front of the dog's chest. There is a slip with a ring attached to which the lead is clipped. When the dog pulls, the slip tightens, turning the dog back toward you. I felt that the the concept was similar to reining a horse and found it quite useful if used actively -- (I already described its use in field walks) In walking on a six foot lead, when Robin pulled, I stopped, letting his own weight turn him back to me. When he took the pressure off and looked up at me, no doubt somewhat surprised to find himself in that position, I guided him into heel position and we moved forward again in the correct position. Repeat. Repeat. Repeat. He soon learned that we made more progress if he stuck close. It wasn't my only trick in getting him to heel but it was a big help.

 

Liz

 

OK then :rolleyes: We don't have them for our dogs and the only time I do see them is at work with clients who use them with their dogs. It is the Easy Walker that can be replaced by using a regular harness and attaching a lead to the front. I've seen it work just as effectively.

 

The way you've used the Easy Walk is much much different than the way i've seen practically all our clients use them.

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Yep, it's your effective way of ending any real discussion.

 

Actually, I'd say you're the one who is doing that.

 

But the "my method is far superior to the cruel methods the rest of you use" gets very, very old. So yes, I will stop responding directly to anything you post, but maybe you could do me the same courtesy.

 

Are you Donald McCaig?

 

Because if not, when I entered this discussion, I was not responding directly to anything you posted.

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Please leave personal sniping out of the exchange. On a discussion board, if you think someone is repeating the same message/tactics ad nauseum, chances are other people are being nauseated too. Self-generated consequences are always the best.

 

Personally, if I were making a list of ways I would NOT recommend for dealing with a dog who pulls on his leash, very high on that list would be both ( a ) buying a specialized piece of equipment that would turn the dog backward when he got ahead of me, and ( b ) kicking the dog in the ass.

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