when to have hip x-rays?

[daisyandme]

I took Daisy (9 months) to the vet today because she took a pretty bad spill a couple weeks ago on the tile floor when trying to chase the cat. She slipped on the tile and skidded and kind of pancaked her back legs into a frog like position and fell all the way onto her stomach. She came up with her leg tucked up under her very obvious that she had hurt herself, but it quickly stopped. She had another incident a couple days ago when I took her to the hardware store and placed her in a basket. The entire time she kept trying to escape and after many attempts and fighting with her, she finally beat me and jumped out of the basket but did not get her legs out in time and smacked her chin on the concrete drawing blood in her mouth, as well as falling on her legs bucked underneath. I have noticed a creaking, cracking sound coming from her since both of these falls. At first I thought it was just her toe nails hitting the tile, but then I heard it on the carpet and when she stretched her leg this morning. I also noticed she stretches a lot...but she did that before the two falls.

 

The vet examined her and said her spine looks good and then said usually in falls like the pancake one, they pull a/muscles that runs on the inside of the leg up to the abdomen (I can't remember the name of what she pulled maybe starts with a "p"???? or "a" maybe I don't know blah, too upset right now). He said sure enough that she was sore and tight in that area. He said it was a very minor injury. He said the creaking is probably from the joints and puppies are so flexible right now at this age. But if it continues it should be looked at further. For right now I need to monitor and limit how crazy she gets around the cat.

 

She runs around like she is a crash test dummy and I don't know how much I should micro manage her. I know I can't protect her from everything. But I think I really need to put my foot down hard on the cat thing as just moves way to fast with her legs skidding everywhere.

 

He also asked me about how she runs with her back legs: does she put one in front of the other or run with them moving together? I said moving together. He then said at some point in the near future I should have her hips x-rayed, but since she is not showing any symptoms I should wait. He said moderate exercise is good for her as it will strengthen the muscle and help the hips which is what we want.

 

I am so worried right now...this creaking/cracking thing doesn't seem right...I don't think I have heard if before. Every time I hear it, I panic. I live 20 to 30 minutes from UC Davis and wonder if I should get her up there to be looked at.

 

Would having x-rays done at this age tell me anything at all since she is not fully developed? Is creaking normal at all? Is stretching when she gets up normal?

 

So very worried right now.

[BCjetta]

Doing an x-ray now will tell you if she has bad hips, or if they look ok at this time - if you're concerned, it won't hurt to do it now. My BC isn't careful either - always skidding and hitting things. I notice with her now a creaking/cracking sound from her back legs sometimes when she goes up stairs or stretches. Its from her hock area and I'm guessing its the same thing as people who can crack their wrists. She has arthritis in other places but not her hocks or hips.

[Liz P]

You CAN diagnose hip dysplasia in a dog of this age with radiographs, but you CAN NOT confirm that she has good (enough to breed) hips at this age. The sooner you know about a hip problem, the more likely any solutions available will work.

 

At 9 months old the hips are at their most lax, so dogs with HD often show symptoms at 8 to 10 months old then appear to get better, only to develop arthritis later in life.

[Alchemist]

At 9 months old the hips are at their most lax, so dogs with HD often show symptoms at 8 to 10 months old then appear to get better, only to develop arthritis later in life.

 

The first part of this, at least, fits my pup to a "T". He was diagnosed with HD when he was about 8 months old, and started limping on his rear leg; we could also hear the hips popping ("subluxation") on manipulation of his limbs. He is asymptomatic at present (at 14 months).

 

We're giving him daily Dasuquin tablets, (at present monthly) Adequan injections, and lots of exercise in hopes of forestalling arthritis and builfing up enough muscle mass to stabilize his hips.

 

But I concur: you can't assume from "clean" X rays on a pup that they'll be free of HD later in life. I'd only do them now if you felt a diagnosis would be helpful.

 

If you do opt to get Daisy X-rayed: consider finding a vet who will do unsedated X-rays. I can see where sedated X-rays are required for OFA or PennHip or Cornell, but if it's just for diagnostic purposes, unsedated is easier on a pup. Not to mention a heckuva lot cheaper ($150 vs $750 in my case, and the latter didn't include the $ for the bloodwork for the anesthetic; we've had to do both sedated and unsedated, and it was the sedated X-rays that were deemed "inconclusive", but that was mostly due to lack of expertise on the part of the vet reading them, because another vet spotted the problem right away).

 

By the way: we broke our pup of chasing the cat by locking him in the bathroom for 20 seconds at a time whenever he tried it. It only took about three visits to the bathroom before he decided it wasn't worth it. (But we began this process when he was only 8 weeks old; it's harder to break ingrained habits).

 

Good luck with Daisy!

[sweet_ceana]

I have had fosters that bunny hop and have had nothing wrong with their hips. I have also had two foster dogs with hip displacia now.

 

This may sound silly, but is she able to stay level on the tile when moving quickly, or is one side or the entire back end unable to catch up?

 

Our previous foster Fitz's back end would give out on him when he tried to run on our pergo floors. He also fell off the couch a lot because he would put too much weight on his back end while sitting on the edge of the couch. While sad, it was hilarious to watch him fall because he would flop down and then roll or stretch out like he was trying to convince you he ment to do that. We got him at 9 months and the x-rays CLEARLY showed he would need surgery. He didn't act like it hurt him yet, but the vet said it would soon. Fitz didn't really bunny hop, he ran like a massive goofy puppy.

 

My current foster Rue was just diagnosed yesterday. She is 9 months old. I had a feeling she had HD because one of her legs couldn't keep up with the other three on the pergo, and she would fall off things as well, but not nearly as often as Fitz. Rue bunny hops a little, and she is showing some pain. Rue's xrays also showed what looks like proof that her pelvis had previously broken, and the cutie only has half of a tail. The vet said it is very possible that she had some sort of injury that pushed her hip out, and let me tell you that hip is out. If I can see it right away on the x-ray then it is pretty obvious.

 

We've been told both cases were/are pretty severe, and being the goal is to find the dog's homes we have to do something. Fitz has been in rescue for at least 7 ish months now. He stayed with us until a foster home opened up that could do hard core rehab with him. (DH and I both have full time jobs and no pool) He has had one surgery, and once that hip is healed he will have another. Since your dog is young, it doesn't hurt to wait because you would probably post pone the surgery until the dog was older. Our situation is different due to the constraints of rescue. Even when we offer to pay for the surgery later it is hard to get someone to adopt a dog with HD that is "unrepaired."

[daisyandme]

I have had fosters that bunny hop and have had nothing wrong with their hips. I have also had two foster dogs with hip displacia now.

 

This may sound silly, but is she able to stay level on the tile when moving quickly, or is one side or the entire back end unable to catch up?

 

Our previous foster Fitz's back end would give out on him when he tried to run on our pergo floors. He also fell off the couch a lot because he would put too much weight on his back end while sitting on the edge of the couch. While sad, it was hilarious to watch him fall because he would flop down and then roll or stretch out like he was trying to convince you he ment to do that. We got him at 9 months and the x-rays CLEARLY showed he would need surgery. He didn't act like it hurt him yet, but the vet said it would soon. Fitz didn't really bunny hop, he ran like a massive goofy puppy.

 

My current foster Rue was just diagnosed yesterday. She is 9 months old. I had a feeling she had HD because one of her legs couldn't keep up with the other three on the pergo, and she would fall off things as well, but not nearly as often as Fitz. Rue bunny hops a little, and she is showing some pain. Rue's xrays also showed what looks like proof that her pelvis had previously broken, and the cutie only has half of a tail. The vet said it is very possible that she had some sort of injury that pushed her hip out, and let me tell you that hip is out. If I can see it right away on the x-ray then it is pretty obvious.

 

The best way I can describe Daisy, is she doesn't know how to slow down when approaching something or starting something...the starting part only shows when she is on tile. Outside the starting is not an issue and I have seen her do laps around the backyard without slipping all over the place. When in the house, it is almost like she just can't grip on to the tile for how fast she wants to go. She wants 0 to 60 mph NOW and brakes at the last possible second or it is just a complete after thought, both of these approaches make her slip. If I were to throw a ball outside, the starting is just fine, the stopping is the problem. She does not slow, so as she grabs the ball she does a kind of turn and the legs come out from under her because she seems to be going way to fast. When I take her outside to run in the field, I have not once seen her legs go out from under her. In the house, I have seen her run at a pretty fast pace and be able to maintain her balance...she is probably trotting or somewhere in between run and trot. I have seen her take off like a shot from the sofa or the bed onto the tile and not slip at all (this is something I can't stand and try to stop it, she is so overly excited and ambitious and it does not help to have to deal with 4 cats).

 

Do you think this description should warrant x-rays now? Should she not be sliding on tile at all? I have not seen the other dogs slide although they are both under 10lbs and do not approach things out of control like Daisy does. The vet was not able to do a very good physical examination of the hips because Daisy was so uptight and stressed. But from what he did examine, I would think he would have been more persistent about having x-rays if something stood out. She is already spayed so I am not to worried then about the breeding part. The vet did mention OFA would not give clearance on hips until 2 years because they are still developing and he did say x-rays now would tell us something, but it may not tell us how good or how bad because there is still room for change because of her age.

 

X-rays now would make me not worry so much about unknowns, but also if she hadn't taken the huge spill and come up limping, I would never think to have her hips looked at. I was thinking I should start her on fish oil based on what was discussed in my supplement post because that would help her with her current injury. I am not sure about starting Glucosamine and Chondroitin. I think I really need to stop the cat thing (thankfully is something new) and also try to limit her jumping off furniture at full speed.

 

The vet said Daisy would have to be sedated for x-rays because she gets so stressed out. The estimate they gave me is x-rays: 150.00, sedation: 50.00-90.00

 

I did try doing a google search about the cracking sound and came across this site but I have not had the chance to go back and find the original source. But it suggests that the cracking/clicking what ever it is, does not necessarily mean anything or could mean recovery from an injury which makes sense for Daisy. Here is a quote: "Interestingly, many dogs seem to develop these noises not at the very beginning of recovery just after the injury/surgery, but weeks or months later during their recovery. The clickings/poppings could be a normal part of the recovery process rather than a new injury. Possibly a result of looseness in the joint after swelling reduces but before scar tissue development tightens the joint to a more near-normal condition."

 

What to do?????? I want to run a scream

[Alchemist]

Wow, your sedated X-rays are a bargain price compared to what our vet charged!

 

In my case I dithered over whether to get X-rays. We'd signed up for pet insurance, but were still within the waiting period for ortho problems, so if the vet were to diagnose anything, then it wouldn't be covered. Our dog was already receiving physical therapy for his shoulder problems, and was also on Dasuquin for the same reason. I asked the ortho vet (at one of the best-known practices in the northeast) whether there was any sort of intervention that was "time sensitive", like a Triple Pelvic Osteotomy (TPO), that would argue for an earlier diagnosis. She told me that they were moving away from TPOs, as they didn't feel the long-term results proved their utility. Basically the surgical options came down to FHO (and our dog was on the large side for this to be successful) or total hip replacement (very pricey, you don't want to go there if you don't HAVE to, and you should wait until the dog was an adult). Rather - they recommended a course of supplements and exercise.

 

So I asked her - since he was already receiving supplements and exercise - what we should do differently if they did diagnose HD. The answer was - nothing.

 

We finally opted for X-rays, even though we'll never be able to get the insurance to cover surgery (if it ends up being needed). I guess knowing for sure that he does have HD has (1) impressed on all of us the importance of exercise - even if it's cold and rainy or snowing and I really don't feel like going out to take him on that walk; (2) made me realize that there are certain activities that are just not in his future - playing with his much larger Swiss mountain dog or GSD buddies who would want to bowl him over; trips to the dog park where he could get bowled over by another dog or would chase a ball or frisbee more than might be good for him; working sheep - anything that puts his limbs at risk. If his hip were to pop out of the joint as a result of any of these, he'd likely have to have surgery. Maybe in a few months I'll re-evaluate these restrictions, but for now he seems perfectly happy with dashing around on our hill out back and with going for long off-leash walks.

 

Just curious - if you're thinking of starting fish oil supplements (which I recommend) - why not glucosamine/chondroitin? What does your vet say? My regular vet (before my pup's problems were diagnosed but after he'd started limping) said "can't hurt, can certainly help!"

[daisyandme]

Just curious - if you're thinking of starting fish oil supplements (which I recommend) - why not glucosamine/chondroitin? What does your vet say? My regular vet (before my pup's problems were diagnosed but after he'd started limping) said "can't hurt, can certainly help!"

 

Well, when I asked about supplements on the forum the yesterday Lenajo gave me a reply:

 

per a seminar at APDT by Dr Doug Knuevan, a holistic vet all dogs need the following:

glucosamine (I disagree here, and would not give it unless needed)

fish oil/omega 3 fatty acids

digestive enzymes

probiotics

a balanced multi-vitamin (the theory being that unless you dog eats the "recommended" amount of a food, he will not be getting the recommended vit. and minerals based on that serving size. And most should eat much less that bag recommends)

 

This article covers what he went over in the seminar.

 

Imo and ime I would not give other supplements without specific medical need - discussed with a holistic minded vet.

 

I am waiting for a response about why it it is not a good idea. I did a google search and have found that the MSM could be a problem???? Not sure though as I have found mixed information.

 

My vet did not suggest any supplements and I really didn't ask. He said the main thing is moderate exercise.

[Kelliwic Border Collies]

At 9 months old the hips are at their most lax,

 

Interesting. What is happening at this stage in their development that causes this?

 

Thanks,

[Kelliwic Border Collies]

I think I really need to put my foot down hard on the cat thing as just moves way to fast with her legs skidding everywhere.

 

Yes. It's not fair to the cat, either.

[Liz P]

Interesting. What is happening at this stage in their development that causes this?

 

Thanks,

 

If memory serves me correctly, it is because bone growth has outpaced muscle development (muscle stabilizes the joint). Rapid growth doesn't cause a shallow joint, but it can make the HD much worse because during the period of laxity the femoral head slips out of the joint and causes the start of arthritic changes. In a dog with a normal joint the femoral head stays in place despite having relatively less muscle mass than an adult dog.

[daisyandme]

Thank you everyone for all the great advice.