ABC Papers

[Kerales Farm]

Good for you for looking elsewhere! This is one of several breeders I have seen with disclaimers that they have nothing to do with MAH, and yet have breeding dogs or bitches they purchased from her and that they continue to breed. Interesting contradiction, don't you think?

 

But this sounds like precisely the sort of "operation" that Candy and others would like to see distanced from ABCA and from the working Border Collie. The breeding program is obviously not based on "work" in terms of what "work" should mean for Border Collies. It's simply based on sports, some lines of working background and a few big names in pedigrees, and producing plentiful numbers of puppies.

 

and yet, one of the mothers of their dams was bred by Candy....

[Mark Billadeau]

So what you're saying is that since Candy bred a litter sold one of the female pups and the new owner bred her, and then this other breeder sold females to a third breeder (the breeder in question) some how Candy is responsible.

 

By your logic, Bobby Henderson and Bobby Dalziel (among others) are responsible for my breeding practices.

[Sue R]

and yet, one of the mothers of their dams was bred by Candy....

So, you are saying that Candy is somehow at fault for selling a pup from which someone then sold a pup to this person? Therefore, Candy owned the grandmother of one of their breeding bitches and sold a pup out of her. There are, if the pedigrees are to be believed, a number of nice dogs within a generation or two of the dogs this person is now breeding. Are they all at fault in some way?

 

A reputable breeder can make the best decision they can with regards to the home a pup is going to but, once that pup is out of their hands, it becomes the responsibility of the new owner (or owners, as some dogs do get sold on) who makes the decisions. Let's hope you are not blaming responsible people for others' decisions.

 

There are some good breeders in recent generations in those pedigrees that, at least at that time, I understand had no compunction against breeding to AKC bitches and/or selling to AKC (dual-registered) homes. I can't agree with that philosophy.

 

Perhaps Candy will reply and set the record straight.

 

Edited - Mark was giving the same, but shorter and more to the point, answer as I was composing my opus.

[abcollie]

and yet, one of the mothers of their dams was bred by Candy....

 

Which "just proves" a split of some kind is a necessity. Do you have any ideas how many people come up to me and say they have a great grand daughter of my old Mocha and when I say great and ask about it ... only to find out they do sports and have bred it 10 times :@(

 

They take dogs bred for the RIGHT reason and breed them for the WRONG reason using the name of the dog (or person) to SELL their puppies.

 

I stated earlier that I thought one of the issues was people taking dogs with great pedigrees and breeding them with other dogs with great pedigrees ... then selling them with the "perfect bred" dog slogan to "sports homes" or ACK trial homes.

[Donald McCaig]

Dear Trainers,

 

Ms. Karin writes:

 

"I have met some incredible people, some fantastic handlers, trainers, novices, etc., so I am by no means making a sweeping generalization. But, to be honest, I have had difficulty trying to figure out who on OUR side is credible because of these experiences."

 

Listen to those with the USBCHA/ABCA Credibility Ring on their second finger. Ignore all others.

 

Donald McCaig

[Tea]

I think the flyer idea is a great one!

 

I would be happy to hand them out at the project and also in my travels through livestock circles

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

Many of the people I work with at the mobile slaughter and other folks involved in producing meat are interested and wondering where to get dogs.

 

But they also need help.

 

This is one reason I reached out to the trialing community to find people interested in going to them, seeing their operations and helping them train their dogs. Or find them a sutible dog.

 

 

Two for example-

 

One does a goat operation with 150 head that does contract brush clearing. I encouraged her to get an older retired dog. Then encouraged her when she needed help to go to an open handler. This she has done and is very happy.

 

Another is my slaughterman who has one dog that in my opinion is too soft for the job, and then one who needs some brakes. But this man is a good guy but needs to have an understanding about how the dogs should be kept.

 

The slow food movement is bringing in more farms.

I will say that this is a really good sign for working dogs.

 

I know of one sheep dairy that still needs a dog. But these folks are shy. And in my opinion feel a little out of it when talking to trialing people. I am not sure why? I have always met with really helpful people. They need someone to go out to their farm and see what they need.

 

I know another slaughterman that needs a dog.

------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

I have had open handlers come out and see what I am doing, to give advice, which they have done free of charge.

 

In my own search I got two rescued dogs. Both are having some health issues. But they are able to help me still. (And I love them.)

Then I looked at the various websites for dogs.

 

USBCHA

 

The Canadian site.

 

ISDS

 

Talked to some really good producers/handlers that also have sheep and cattle operations.

 

Found Sweep the Broom- who is rapidly becoming my right arm.

 

Then found Taw.

 

 

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

 

 

I have also had folks here at the project who have AKC dogs.

 

I hand them the Dog Wars book.

 

My copy is about worn out.

 

That is about all I can do.

[Lenajo]

If we aren't responsible for what happens to the grandpups of our current working dogs, why are we bothering with this conversation anyway?

 

Everybody makes mistakes and sells to the wrong people despite all efforts to the contrary. Past is past. Thankfully though, the availability of non-breeding papers as well as economical spay/neuter has provided a solution for the future.

 

If you want to make sure the future "MAH" (there will always be one out there) out there doesn't have you bloodlines you have a choice now.

 

If you are a good breeder who's keeping up with what you put out there you can easily lift non-breeding papers for a matured pup of good quality in a home who will breed them with integrity.

[abcollie]

If we aren't responsible for what happens to the grandpups of our current working dogs, why are we bothering with this conversation anyway?

 

Everybody makes mistakes and sells to the wrong people despite all efforts to the contrary. Past is past. Thankfully though, the availability of non-breeding papers as well as economical spay/neuter has provided a solution for the future.

 

If you want to make sure the future "MAH" (there will always be one out there) out there doesn't have you bloodlines you have a choice now.

 

If you are a good breeder who's keeping up with what you put out there you can easily lift non-breeding papers for a matured pup of good quality in a home who will breed them with integrity.

 

I sure don't agree with that one ...

 

What if you came to me saying you wanted a working dog and get into trialing and I said GREAT. I sold you a pup and you started trialing and doing well ... winning open trials. So, you bred your dog and sold the pups to someone that said they wanted to work their dog BUT then decided that it was too HARD and they wanted to do something they could do in their backyard and went into agility. They did well there and started winning and then bred their dog ... that was YOUR fault when you sold the pup thinking it was going to work?

[abcollie]

If we aren't responsible for what happens to the grandpups of our current working dogs, why are we bothering with this conversation anyway?

 

Everybody makes mistakes and sells to the wrong people despite all efforts to the contrary. Past is past. Thankfully though, the availability of non-breeding papers as well as economical spay/neuter has provided a solution for the future.

 

If you want to make sure the future "MAH" (there will always be one out there) out there doesn't have you bloodlines you have a choice now.

 

If you are a good breeder who's keeping up with what you put out there you can easily lift non-breeding papers for a matured pup of good quality in a home who will breed them with integrity.

 

This isn't aimed at you ... so much as it made me think.

 

To me it's the same as passing "spay/neuter" laws. The only people that follow the "law" are law abiding citizens ... the ones that produce the dogs running the streets are not "you or I".

 

If all the responsible breeders sell their dogs with a spay/neuter contract and all the "AKC" or "Sport Breeders" don't (and I'm NOT saying that is the case ... just thinking "out loud" ... usually not a good thing :@) ... what happens???

 

The only "gene pool" that will be limited will be the responsible breeders ... so those dogs are NOT being reproduced but the "breed for money" are breeding like crazy. Not the gene pool I want to "dip into".

 

Like I said ... you just made me think ...

[Mark Billadeau]

I sure don't agree with that one ...

 

What if you came to me saying you wanted a working dog and get into trialing and I said GREAT. I sold you a pup and you started trialing and doing well ... winning open trials. So, you bred your dog and sold the pups to someone that said they wanted to work their dog BUT then ........

decided that dog was not a good fit for them and sold the dog on to someone else.

 

The only way around this problem (and still sell intact pups) is for a breeder to have a sales contract that allows them to maintain breeding rights and resale rights over their pup and their pup's offspring.

 

Would you buy from such a breeder?

[Sue R]

decided that dog was not a good fit for them and sold the dog on to someone else.

 

The only way around this problem is for a breeder to have a sales contract that allows them to maintain breeding rights and resale rights over their pup and their pup's offspring.

 

Would you buy from such a breeder?

Even if you have such a sales contract, how could it possibly be enforced reasonably? How could you ever know if someone sold on a dog unless it became obvious, and then what would/could you do that was reasonable?

[Mark Billadeau]

I agree Sue, I was just trying to point out the difficulty (impossibility) in saying we should be responsible for the offspring of our sold pups.

[abcollie]

decided that dog was not a good fit for them and sold the dog on to someone else.

 

The only way around this problem (and still sell intact pups) is for a breeder to have a sales contract that allows them to maintain breeding rights and resale rights over their pup and their pup's offspring.

 

Would you buy from such a breeder?

 

 

I KNOW I wouldn't but I do know a "sports breeder" (who says their dogs are from working stock) that does have that "sort" of contract and sells for 3 times the amount a TRUE working dog breeder gets. Maybe she's the wise one ... they can't breed and have to come back to her for their "new" agility champion instead of breeding their own :@)

 

 

I don't know what the answer ... that's why I suggested the "paper color" trail ... you sell your pups (thinking they will be working dogs) with white papers ... the owner then has to EARN the blue/pink ones. If they don't when someone comes back and says your "such and such" dog is breeding at least you know it's with white papers (not sure if that will make anyone feel better :@(?

[Sue R]

I know, Mark, and appreciated your comment. That sort of thing might work for a very high-profile breeder in certain registries/circles but I don't think it would hold water with anyone who was less than responsible, as Candy pointed out.

[Lenajo]

So again, if the future of our pups and grandpups is impossible to control - why again, are we having this conversation on the Boards/public/net/etc over and over again? The way I'm reading what you write, the responsibility of the breeder ends at the receipt of payment, then the work/sports/pet people have a perfect right to breed that pups as they see fit. All those sport/pet/byb people are simply exercising their American right.

 

Am I reading this right? I really am confused. It sounds like you guys want to have open market to sell and buy, but everybody else is supposed to make sure they don't get bred for anything other than quality work.

 

Explain please.

 

edited to fix bad typos

[abcollie]

So again, if the future of our pups and grandpups is impossible to control - why again, are we having this conversation on the Boards/public/net/etc over and over again? The way I'm reading what you right, the responsibility of the breeder ends at the receipt of payment, then the work/sports/pet people have a perfect right to breed that pups as they see fit. All those sport/pet/byb people are simply exercising their American right.

 

Am I reading this right? I really am confused. It sounds like you guys want to have open market to sell and buy, but everybody else is supposed to make sure they don't get bred for anything other than quality work.

 

Explain please.

 

WHEN does SELF responsibility "come into play"? When I sell my pups I don't just say here have a Border Collie.

 

I ask what they need/want in a dog. What are they going to do with a dog. I explain what Border Collies are like and WHY they are bred (WORK) and WHY they shouldn't be bred for anything EXCEPT work. If they say I'm going to breed them without training them up ... I don't sell. If they say they are going to do "whatever" (including agility) because they like to do things with their dogs ... that's great.

 

I WON'T sell to anyone that wants a male/female out of different lines. I don't sell to anyone that is looking for color.

 

However, again I say ... if you want people that are breeding for working ability to the best of their ability ... the keepers of the TRUE Border Collie to sell with Spay/Neuter to every dog they sell ... how's that going to HELP working Border Collies? I think you are looking at it from the wrong angle. Those pups are what we SHOULD be bred ... not limited.

 

Why do you think THOSE dogs should be spayed/neutered ... yet the sport breeders who are breeding for all the wrong reasons ... and selling 10 litters a year (usually with "working" in the background 3 generations ago) should be the ones deciding how these dogs are going to end up?

 

Again, I say SELF responsibility ... the person that OWNS the dog that is BREEDING is the one that is accountable not someone that owned a male/female 3 generations down the pedigree.

[Pearse]

So again, if the future of our pups and grandpups is impossible to control - why again, are we having this conversation on the Boards/public/net/etc over and over again? The way I'm reading what you right, the responsibility of the breeder ends at the receipt of payment, then the work/sports/pet people have a perfect right to breed that pups as they see fit. All those sport/pet/byb people are simply exercising their American right.

 

Am I reading this right? I really am confused. It sounds like you guys want to have open market to sell and buy, but everybody else is supposed to make sure they don't get bred for anything other than quality work.

 

Explain please.

 

 

In practical terms that is true. If I sell you a dog, that dog is now your property, and short of reporting you to the authorities if I find out you are mistreating the dog, there's little I can do to make you not register it where I don't want you to or not breed the dog. I can't spay/neuter a pup at 8 weeks for example. I can offer to take the dog back if it doesn't work out, but if you choose to sell it on to someone else, there's not much I can do about it, and I'm under no legal obligation to take the dog back regardless of what you or I (and most responsible breeders I've dealt with) might consider a moral obligation.

 

That said, if I had a dog that I knew was never going to make it as a working dog and was going to sell it on, that dog would e spayed or neutered unless there was some medical reason not to do so.

 

It is possible to sell dogs with a no breeding contract which could be amended once the dog proves itself later on. People would have to be willing to enforce the contracts, and most aren't so they don't bother writing them. That, and it might make it more difficult to sell pups. As someone else pointed out, the AKC breeders and some sport breeders do it all the time, and they make it clear that they will sue your butt if you break the contract.

 

It is also possible, and more practical, to sell dogs with a "buyer agrees not to register this dog with the AKC" clause. Again, seller needs to be willing to enforce the contract and not sell to people who want to register AKC, but that is a much simpler solution than having the registry be the enforcer

 

So there's lots that individual dog owners and dog breeders can do. Most don't seem willing to do it since contracts like these are not common practice in the working dog world.

 

Pearse

(whose views and comments on this topic represent only his own personal opinion)

[Debbie Meier]

The down fall of the colored papers is that people will find a way to exploit it. I could see breeders that are selling for profit based on paper instead of proven work as marketing pups based on white paper/blue paper matings or the stud is the result of a blue paper mating. In all reality it might get exploited even more then promoting "X is from working lines and goes back to "so and so", blank champion"

 

It seems that not matter what you do to offer or develop a tool it ends up being used as a weapon.

[abcollie]

The down fall of the colored papers is that people will find a way to exploit it. I could see breeders that are selling for profit based on paper instead of proven work as marketing pups based on white paper/blue paper matings or the stud is the result of a blue paper mating. In all reality it might get exploited even more then promoting "X is from working lines and goes back to "so and so", blank champion"

 

It seems that not matter what you do to offer or develop a tool it ends up being used as a weapon.

 

You are more than likely right :@( Not sure there is a solution? They don't seem to have the issue "across the pond" since there is are so many farmers needing dogs (and using dogs ... a lot of farmers don't here).

[abcollie]

So again, if the future of our pups and grandpups is impossible to control - why again, are we having this conversation on the Boards/public/net/etc over and over again? The way I'm reading what you write, the responsibility of the breeder ends at the receipt of payment, then the work/sports/pet people have a perfect right to breed that pups as they see fit. All those sport/pet/byb people are simply exercising their American right.

 

Am I reading this right? I really am confused. It sounds like you guys want to have open market to sell and buy, but everybody else is supposed to make sure they don't get bred for anything other than quality work.

 

Explain please.

 

edited to fix bad typos

 

Let me try to explain another way ...

 

I had someone come to me wanting to breed to one of my males. I said let me see her work ... well no, she's just a pet. Then sorry I won't breed.

 

She says but I WANTED to get into "this" and I want her to work. So, She puts her into training for 3 or 4 months and turned out she was actually a very good dog. So, when the gal wants to breed her I agree and I told her which male I had that I thought would "suit" her.

 

She is planning on trialing after the pups and tells me she will bring her back in for more training (and send a pup later on). I NEVER heard from her again until years later ... when I found out she had sold all the pups to agility homes/pet homes and they had ALL been bred numerous times. My name IS on those breedings BUT ... I did all I could to make sure they were correctly bred.

 

So, I learned my lesson and VERY seldom "stand my dogs out at stud" unless the bitch is trialing/working and I KNOW the people are breeding to get pups for themselves to work.

 

I was told I should have bred one of my males to a lot more bitches ... he bred very WELL and looking back I should have ... but again?

[sandyleew]

But you let her breed the dog after just 3-4 months of training, I thought the idea was to only breed proven dogs. How was this dog a proven working dog?

 

I am confused.

[Lenajo]

Nobody, least of all me, proposed a mass spaying and neutering of all working pups. I do propose, that we have the options to use that, or the non-breeding ABCA option, to make much more certain only quality proven dogs were used for breeding. Therefore directly contributing to the continued success of this breed as a stockdog.

 

We cannot control what anyone, least of all the pet and sport public once we hand them unneutered pups with no restrictions. That I agree on. So why is it so difficult to consider not handing out out pups that way? Is it really so hard to consider a baseline contract/bill of sale?

 

If you can enforce "no-akc" then you can enforce the signing of a non-breeding contract to make sure that they can't produce registerable ABCA pups unless they meet whatever standards your determine. Those standards don't have to be elaborate, unfair, or entail artificially inflated (ala ack sport mill) prices.

 

If they choose to breed unregistered it at least hurts them in the wallet, and they have to ROM any quality offspring if they want back in. We expect the ROM dogs to meet a certain standard to be registerable breeding stock...why not our own pups?

[Alchemist]

You are more than likely right :@( Not sure there is a solution? They don't seem to have the issue "across the pond" since there is are so many farmers needing dogs (and using dogs ... a lot of farmers don't here).

 

But aren't the registries "across the pond" split between ISDS (working dogs) and KC (conformation dogs)? (with, of course, a provision for "registration on merit" for ISDS).

 

The way I see it: selling a dog on a s/n contract, with a "buyback" provision (breeder has right of first refusal if dog is to be sold/rehomed), and choosing carefully among prospective buyers, is really all a responsible breeder can do to make sure their lines don't end up on sports dogs' pedigrees. There will always be buyers who will violate these contracts, and I think we all recognize that getting the resulting imps back into Pandora's box is impossible. It's not fair to hold the breeder responsible. At the same time, we have to acknowledge that spaying or neutering any pup that doesn't go to a working home will, inevitably, limit the gene pool. If you s/n all nonworking pups of Open champions, won't you be losing the likeliest grandparents of the next "fresh blood" that might have received an ROM?

 

Discontinuing the practice of dual registration seems, at least to my eyes, to be the only viable solution. Of course I'm assuming that most sports breeders will opt for AKC. (Is this a fallacious assumption?). If you're naive enough to buy from a sports breeder rather than from a breeder of working dogs, you're naive enough to think ACK is a sign of quality.

 

Disclaimer: I'm not a breeder, nor do I wish to breed dogs or any other animal. I have no regrets at all for having had any of my own dogs spayed or neutered. I'm just someone who has loved and owned working-bred Border collies for most of my life (with the exception of a hiatus when I had small kids).

[Mark Billadeau]

For a breeder to contribute to (and possibly improve) the working gene pool, that breeder must let their lines be bred.

A healthy gene pool needs as many working bred (and proven by work) and unrelated dogs as possible.

Unless the registry dictates which dogs can be bred, breeders are reliant upon each other.

 

You can minimize the misuse of your lines, but you really cannot totally prevent it if you're trying to contribute to the working gene pool.

[abcollie]

But you let her breed the dog after just 3-4 months of training, I thought the idea was to only breed proven dogs. How was this dog a proven working dog?

 

I am confused.

 

This was 20+ years ago and like I said I learned my lesson. That "takes into account" my previous comment about Mocha pups ending up in agility breeding.

 

I wish I had never done it ... I did BUT again, I learned my lesson and after that I stopped breeding outside bitches. So, while ALL those great-great grand pups are "more than likely" still being bred. The male that I was told I should have bred more often ... was only bred 1/2 dozen times.

 

(And actually that bitch would have been a great asset (with the training it had) on a farm ... so it's NOT like breeding a dog that only does agility or one that is running an ACK trial ... that can work sheep that are trained for the course).