ABC Papers

[Mark Billadeau]

What problem(s) do you want the papers to solve?

 

Too low of a percentage of Border Collies are "working bred"

Too little a distinction between "working bred" and "from working lines"

Lack of public understanding of the difference between ours and the AKC's definition of "Border Collie"

other

 

A clearly defined problem makes finding solution easier.

[G. Festerling]

Sorry for again bringing in the GSD....

A good modern example of this is again the GSD.

When after the war Germany was split, a number of dogs got stuck behind the curtain.

Resulting, due to a totally different program, in almost totally different dog. Appearance as well as temperament.

Nostalgic DDR breeders don't want to hear this, but according to many of the old breeders

(and I have talked to some of them myself) they where slowly but surely breeding themselves in a corner.

Large part due to a limited gene pool (which they did attempt to solve by bringing in a limited number of dogs from the outside).

[Alchemist]

I'm probably a reasonable representative of the group of people who could easily have gotten sucked in by the sports breeders. I very nearly bought a pup from a local "large producer" of Border collies (as many as ten litters per year) - "working dogs for working people" is their mantra. They tout their "working lines", and yup, you can see from the pedigrees (all posted online) a scattering of ISDS trial champions. I (thought I) knew I wanted a dog from "working lines"; all my prior Border collies had been from "working lines" (actually, they'd all had at least one parent that worked, but I didn't recognize the distinction between "working lines" and "working bred"). I figured I'd be able to go check out the parents and the temperaments of the pups in the litter. I was willing to wait for the right litter. I was thinking of doing agility, and there was some element of logic (or so it seemed) in buying a dog from a breeder who specializes in this. I was naive enough not to recognize what it meant that one of the leading sires at this kennel was bred by none other than MAH.

 

Why didn't I buy from them? Well, I noticed that all their dogs were dual registered. I knew that ACK ruins dogs. I worried about what it meant that this breeder registered with them. (I also discovered the breeder didn't allow anyone to meet the parents or the pups before purchasing them, but the ACK registration was still a big red flag for me). So I poked around and discovered these Boards. And what an education it's been!

 

I am sure there are others out there who are in search of a companion dog who are also opposed to all that ACK represents. Certainly when I started looking for a pup I saw plenty of websites where breeders advertised their ACK litters. I didn't spare them a second glance. That ACK registration right there was a dealbreaker.

 

I didn't think I needed a dog destined to be the next National champion. I might have thought "working lines" was good enough. I might even have veered away from the "top color" of papers - would this be too much dog for me? So color-coding would actually have been counterproductive in my case.

 

So my vote would be for ABCA to stop allowing dual registration. If it means that the name of the breed has to be changed - so be it. I think separating the registries would have more influence on the less-informed people than would a scheme that involved color coding the registration papers.

 

For what it's worth: I've since met a number of dogs from this local "large breeder". Haven't met a one I liked. There's something empty in them. I ended up (thanks to the education I got here) with a working-bred dog with a great temperament and a burning desire to please - exactly like the Border collies I owned before ACK started messing with the breed.

 

To be sure, there will be people who will continue to buy from these sports breeders. But once dual listing is in the past, what they buy will soon be Border collies in name only. And they will leave the gene pool of the working Border collie.

[abcollie]

What problem(s) do you want the papers to solve?

 

Too low of a percentage of Border Collies are "working bred"

Too little a distinction between "working bred" and "from working lines"

Lack of public understanding of the difference between ours and the AKC's definition of "Border Collie"

other

 

A clearly defined problem makes finding solution easier.

 

Good question :@) I can see you are "left brained" (and I'm so VERY not so it's good to have someone that is :@)

 

It's the number of dogs that are being bred with the "title" working dogs. Even the ones that buy good working dogs and then just breed them by pedigree alone and sell them with a line of BS.

 

BUT more than that it's the "sport" dogs that are being bred in huge numbers with NO regard to working ability BUT using the ABCA reputation as they are breeding good dogs.

 

Now that I've "said" that ... I'm not sure the defines it any better :@(

 

Off topic ... is there a spell check on this board (if they knew how bad my spelling was someone would write a program just so they didn't have to read it :@)

[abcollie]

Sorry for again bringing in the GSD....

A good modern example of this is again the GSD.

When after the war Germany was split, a number of dogs got stuck behind the curtain.

Resulting, due to a totally different program, in almost totally different dog. Appearance as well as temperament.

Nostalgic DDR breeders don't want to hear this, but according to many of the old breeders

(and I have talked to some of them myself) they where slowly but surely breeding themselves in a corner.

Large part due to a limited gene pool (which they did attempt to solve by bringing in a limited number of dogs from the outside).

 

I think any time you put "appearance" in the *subject line* you are asking for trouble.

 

How about hunting dogs ... is there an issue with those breeds with blurring of the lines?

[abcollie]

I didn't think I needed a dog destined to be the next National champion. I might have thought "working lines" was good enough. I might even have veered away from the "top color" of papers - would this be too much dog for me? So color-coding would actually have been counterproductive in my case.

 

So my vote would be for ABCA to stop allowing dual registration. If it means that the name of the breed has to be changed - so be it. I think separating the registries would have more influence on the less-informed people than would a scheme that involved color coding the registration papers.

.

 

To be sure, there will be people who will continue to buy from these sports breeders. But once dual listing is in the past, what they buy will soon be Border collies in name only. And they will leave the gene pool of the working Border collie.

 

OK, but if you were thinking you wanted a Border Collie and someone was registering Working Border Collie ... (ABC) would you have bought one of those (if you hadn't been on the boards?)

[Sue R]

I'm probably a reasonable representative of the group of people who could easily have gotten sucked in by the sports breeders. I very nearly bought a pup from a local "large producer" of Border collies (as many as ten litters per year) - "working dogs for working people" is their mantra. They tout their "working lines", and yup, you can see from the pedigrees (all posted online) a scattering of ISDS trial champions. I (thought I) knew I wanted a dog from "working lines"; all my prior Border collies had been from "working lines" (actually, they'd all had at least one parent that worked, but I didn't recognize the distinction between "working lines" and "working bred"). I figured I'd be able to go check out the parents and the temperaments of the pups in the litter. I was willing to wait for the right litter. I was thinking of doing agility, and there was some element of logic (or so it seemed) in buying a dog from a breeder who specializes in this. I was naive enough not to recognize what it meant that one of the leading sires at this kennel was bred by none other than MAH.

Good for you for looking elsewhere! This is one of several breeders I have seen with disclaimers that they have nothing to do with MAH, and yet have breeding dogs or bitches they purchased from her and that they continue to breed. Interesting contradiction, don't you think?

 

But this sounds like precisely the sort of "operation" that Candy and others would like to see distanced from ABCA and from the working Border Collie. The breeding program is obviously not based on "work" in terms of what "work" should mean for Border Collies. It's simply based on sports, some lines of working background and a few big names in pedigrees, and producing plentiful numbers of puppies.

[Sue R]

What would I have done when I first wanted a Border Collie to help on the farm (which was my goal)? Well, not knowing diddly, I would have thought that AKC was a mark of quality, I wouldn't have had a clue that there were dogs/lines that are useful and those that aren't (they were all "bred for that" weren't they - it's wired in), and I would have thought that those show dogs were real Border Collies. Talk about being totally ignorant - and we had had working-bred Aussies before and a farm-bred Border Collie/Aussie that worked our cattle.

 

What opened my eyes, to start with, was seeing various demos - but only one that was really, really impressive in terms of me looking and saying, "That's what I need and want on the farm." Most demos are just entertainment and sometimes ways to sell pups, at least what I've seen in my part of the world. This one, while (I believe) really oriented towards selling pups eventually, was put on with folks with excellently-trained and handled dogs. It should have been a clue when I viewed the website and saw that, while ABCA-registered, they were also "proud" to have some dogs they sold also registered (and shown) AKC. But I was still ignorant.

 

The next big step was finding these boards and having my eyes opened, big time. How many pups did I get before I got Dan, a truly well-bred, working-bred pup from solid, proven lines - and not produced with a pet/performance/hobby-herding market largely in mind? Three. Some people never learn and some people take a long time to learn, and a lot of hard, honest input from places like this and from friends who are willing to tell you like it is even when you don't want to hear it.

 

Thank goodness I've never turned around and said that such-and-such of my dogs is so wonderful and I'm going to breed him/her because everybody asks if I breed the dogs...

[Alchemist]

OK, but if you were thinking you wanted a Border Collie and someone was registering Working Border Collie ... (ABC) would you have bought one of those (if you hadn't been on the boards?)

 

Sure. What I'd come to value in the Border collies I'd owned before clearly derived from their working ability. I might have said "huh?" the first time I ran into the "Working" part of the breed name, researched the history, and then realized this was exactly what I was looking for.

 

I've known a lot of people who have purchased dogs from other breeds who steer away from "conformation" lines. I'm sure we've all met labs, GDS, Goldens that are from "working" lines that are quite nice dogs. So there's definitely a culture of people who appreciate dogs who steer away from ACK.

 

But do you need to change the name to split the registry?

 

I can see how it'd be a lot of work for ABCA to police. But does ABCA, per se, need to do all the work? wouldn't there be a small army of BC Board volunteers? I've certainly seen quite a few posts on the topic of "check out THIS breeder!!!".

 

I guess I'm assuming that the bulk of the "risk" to the working Border collie gene pool comes from a relatively small number of large-volume breeders, but I don't know that this is the case.

 

Would owners of working Border collies be willing to pay higher registration fees if a large fraction of breeders of dual-registered dogs stuck with ACK? (Otherwise ABCA revenues would plummet just when they're taking on the task of deregistering those breeders who continue to dual register).

 

Could ABCA sue ACK to close their studbooks?

[Mark Billadeau]

How about hunting dogs ... is there an issue with those breeds with blurring of the lines?

"Red Setter" controversy

[Debbie Meier]

Kinda off the wall, but what would happen if it was approached from a totally different angle? Certify the breeder instead of the dog.

 

Deb

[Journey]

OK, still wondering where the holes are but - what if ABCA stopped issuing papers? ACK requires them to register a dog through their "open registration". "What" are they really needed for? If they were "needed" could a request be made to ABCA at say a higher fee than current to get a copy? Not sure where I am going with this but it seems to me that since AKC "requires them" someone should make them really darn hard to get!

[DeltaBluez Tess]

How about stamping on the ABCA papers "Not AKC eligible"

 

 

Diane

[abcollie]

How about stamping on the ABCA papers "Not AKC eligible"

Diane

 

 

Interesting ... what are the "legalities" of that? Is it possible and what happens if it's ignored by AKC?

[abcollie]

What would I have done when I first wanted a Border Collie to help on the farm (which was my goal)? Well, not knowing diddly, I would have thought that AKC was a mark of quality, I wouldn't have had a clue that there were dogs/lines that are useful and those that aren't (they were all "bred for that" weren't they - it's wired in), and I would have thought that those show dogs were real Border Collies. Talk about being totally ignorant - and we had had working-bred Aussies before and a farm-bred Border Collie/Aussie that worked our cattle.

 

What opened my eyes, to start with, was seeing various demos - but only one that was really, really impressive in terms of me looking and saying, "That's what I need and want on the farm." Most demos are just entertainment and sometimes ways to sell pups, at least what I've seen in my part of the world. This one, while (I believe) really oriented towards selling pups eventually, was put on with folks with excellently-trained and handled dogs. It should have been a clue when I viewed the website and saw that, while ABCA-registered, they were also "proud" to have some dogs they sold also registered (and shown) AKC. But I was still ignorant.

 

The next big step was finding these boards and having my eyes opened, big time. How many pups did I get before I got Dan, a truly well-bred, working-bred pup from solid, proven lines - and not produced with a pet/performance/hobby-herding market largely in mind? Three. Some people never learn and some people take a long time to learn, and a lot of hard, honest input from places like this and from friends who are willing to tell you like it is even when you don't want to hear it.

 

Thank goodness I've never turned around and said that such-and-such of my dogs is so wonderful and I'm going to breed him/her because everybody asks if I breed the dogs...

 

So ... before you "got here" what would have helped you realize/understand the difference. Like Mark was talking about ... how could we (the working we) gotten the message to you?

[abcollie]

OK, still wondering where the holes are but - what if ABCA stopped issuing papers? ACK requires them to register a dog through their "open registration". "What" are they really needed for? If they were "needed" could a request be made to ABCA at say a higher fee than current to get a copy? Not sure where I am going with this but it seems to me that since AKC "requires them" someone should make them really darn hard to get!

 

I "see" what you are saying.

 

 

Maybe ABCA keeps the white papers and you only get papers when they become colored ... so someone has to put EFFORT into getting them.

 

I don't think that would "fly" but interesting thought.

[abcollie]

Kinda off the wall, but what would happen if it was approached from a totally different angle? Certify the breeder instead of the dog.

 

Deb

 

I "think" that might limit the "gene pool" that is needed ... as assume just the "die hards" would go to that trouble. But maybe?

[abcollie]

Could ABCA sue ACK to close their studbooks?

 

If I remember correctly ... that was one of the things that was brought up when this first started. I believe they didn't think it could be done (or ACK had SO much money it would be a waste of time) ... can't remember?

 

Years ago ... (when we published the American Border Collie Magazine) we tried to "hit" them with their "Non-Profit status (ever see the building in NEW YORK they own). That ruffled a few feathers :@)

[Sue R]

So ... before you "got here" what would have helped you realize/understand the difference. Like Mark was talking about ... how could we (the working we) gotten the message to you?

Good question, one I have wondered about also.

 

What exposed me to something I really wasn't aware of (real, quality working dogs with good training - showing what could be done with all the right pieces, dog, training, handling) was a demo. All the stockdog work we had done up to that point had been by the seat of our pants.

 

We'd bought an adult male Aussie from a "working" situation (and soon found that "bringing in the dairy cows for milking" did not a stockdog make). He had no power, no presence, no real courage because all he'd ever really done was follow the cows in and out, as is often the case with dairy. The next two dogs we got were also from a (different) dairy farm but these dogs were bred with work in mind - they were tough, resilient, powerful, courageous, and had useful instincts.

 

But what I realized I needed after some time was more of a gathering dog than a driving dog. The Aussie we had was terrific for many uses but between him and us, we never were able to get to gathering. I had seen a number of so-so demos and while I'd always had a soft spot in my heart for Border Collies (I grew up with one), it just didn't click that they could be or would be a useful dog for us. But then I saw working Border Collies in a very well-done demo - informative, quality dogs with great training, great handling, and a good presentation - real stock and not just ducks and cute obstacles or half-baked work. When I saw those dogs work, I knew that was the kind of dog I needed - I didn't realize quite so much just what I would have to bring to the equation!

 

I was fortunate in that I rather lucked into some reasonable pups as a result of that demo, a breeder who kept in touch for quite some time and encouraged me and gave advice, and then (through learning about and going to trials and making contacts - the real important steps) I learned about things like these boards, breeders, trainers, clinicians and so forth. And it's still a learning struggle daily, with the dogs and with learning what I need to know to get the most out of my dogs (and myself) and really have a useful partnership with the dogs.

 

What would have helped? Information - maybe a great pamphlet passed out at demos. Being steered in the direction of these boards somehow. Meeting some of the people I have met, who have extended the hand of friendship and many words of advice (honestly, not just what I wanted to hear and not just what would benefit them or their business), people who were welcoming but firm in teaching me what I needed to learn - even when it was hard or not well-received. Meeting someone who would be a mentor, advisor, supporter, constructive criticiser.

 

That is one reason why I always try to advise people to go to trials, volunteer, meet people, make contacts, listen and learn - especially from those people that don't "profit" from you and have nothing to gain but advising another newcomer along the pathway they once had to traverse. Find a mentor, paid or otherwise, who will be honest and not just string you along to make money, sell a pup, and so forth.

 

Other than that, I have no idea how to do it.

[Sue R]

Wait, here's the short answer - reach out to prospective newcomers - advise, mentor, help them make connections, steer them in the right direction, have a profile on the internet so you are "out there" where all the less-qualified people/breeders are (at least folks will then have a chance of contacting someone worthwhile), be welcoming at trials to people you don't know (and, if you find a newcomer, give them something worthwhile in terms of learning about the dogs, what they can do, and how to go about getting a dog if that's a possibility in their future).

[dracina]

Hi Candy:

 

I am a newcomer, and I hope that you do not mind me telling about my experiences so far in the hope that it will help. This may wander a bit far off from your intended discussion, but I think that I am the type of person of which you speak. I second what Sue said above as far as attracting prospective newcomers ^^^. But I have a bit to add:

 

I am in the market for a quality working (not just “working bred”) dog; I have attended clinics, volunteered at USBCHA- sanctioned trials, and read these Boards often. I ask for advice, occasionally give it, and try to learn everything that I can. I have two border collies, both rescues (shelter dogs), and both have been trained on sheep. Both are very keen, but neither is very good (dart board code: yellow). I think that I have learned enough about border collie culture to make a fairly decent decision about my next dog, but it is still very confusing.

 

I think that your ideas are excellent as far as how to distinguish the quality of the dog, and it absolutely makes sense. But, I don't know if it is foolproof. As someone who is known to be looking for a pup, I am sometimes approached by...shall we say, less-than-scrupulous handlers who would love to sell me a “great dog” (known to be nothing of the sort, but definitely working-bred). Many of those potential sellers seem to me to be a bit shady, but they are USBCHA Open handlers. (Edited to remove "all": I meant MANY- not all)

 

I appreciate and respect the working border collie and the supporting community immensely. But I figured out the "right way" the hard way- not from a bad breeder, but from my experiences with a questionable trainer. I used to do agility and obedience with my dogs at an ACK affiliated club, where I was also a member. I heard about my first “herding” instructor (a USBCHA Open handler) from the other ACK members. If anyone remembers, it was a really ridiculous introduction to working stockdogs. If I wouldn't have looked deeper, I might have turned right around and gone back to the ACK.

 

I am a true supporter of the working border collie and the USBCHA (I am not a member, because I haven’t even run a novice trial yet). I have met some incredible people, some fantastic handlers, trainers, novices, etc., so I am by no means making a sweeping generalization. But, to be honest, I have had difficulty trying to figure out who on OUR side is credible because of these experiences.

 

In short, I try to make the right decisions and get information from reputable sources. But, I often question why more isn’t done by the USBCHA to stop questionable breeding AND training practices, all under the auspice of their very good name. How to get the word out to the public that working border collies are of better quality than “other” Border Collies? I have to say that it needs to start from the inside first. In my opinion, there are members who may be taking advantage of the USBCHA name. When those members use questionable breeding or training practices, it makes the whole organization look bad.

 

JMO- a newbie trying to figure it all out. I hope that I haven't offended unintentionally!

 

Karrin

 

(ETA again- I realize that the ABCA and USBCHA are two separate entities that may or may not have any say in the other's business; I am addressing the "prospective newcomers" sub-topic)

[abcollie]

I hope that I haven't offended unintentionally!

 

I can't "speak" for anyone else but it sure didn't offend me. It's information that I think open handlers need to hear and I have NO doubts what you say is true. When we first started saying ACK was planning on "taking over" the Border Collie ... I know an open handler that would tell people ... we were just "spreading lies." She was a well known handler that did a lot of business with ACK ... so I "hear" you.

 

I think the way you are going about it is the best. It's really is a small community and the more you "get around" the more you will hear. So, before you buy a pup ... keep researching and talking. There ARE some really good people out there.

 

I do believe any organization has "issues" and nothing is foolproof. I also KNOW we need more people like you that WANT to do this for the right reasons and there are people out there that will appreciate that.

 

Hang in there :@)

[abcollie]

Wait, here's the short answer - reach out to prospective newcomers - advise, mentor, help them make connections, steer them in the right direction, have a profile on the internet so you are "out there" where all the less-qualified people/breeders are (at least folks will then have a chance of contacting someone worthwhile), be welcoming at trials to people you don't know (and, if you find a newcomer, give them something worthwhile in terms of learning about the dogs, what they can do, and how to go about getting a dog if that's a possibility in their future).

 

I know ABC had a flyer we use to hand out to the handlers ... don't know if they still have it (long time ago when I was on the

committee).

 

I think part of the problem is where agility people have their venue (towns, big cities) draw a lot of people. Where we have our trials ... not so many.

[DeltaBluez Tess]

Interesting ... what are the "legalities" of that? Is it possible and what happens if it's ignored by AKC?

 

 

This would be a lawyer type of answer and that is not me!!

 

Diane

[Sue R]

I know ABC had a flyer we use to hand out to the handlers ... don't know if they still have it (long time ago when I was on the

committee).

 

I think part of the problem is where agility people have their venue (towns, big cities) draw a lot of people. Where we have our trials ... not so many.

They do have a flyer and just sent me a box for handing out to spectators at the Bluegrass. The only issue is that there are prices in there (for registration and so forth) that are outdated. A new flyer would be a good idea, without pricing but maybe just a reference to the website for current information.