Origin of term "border collie"

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Here's one I turned up, entitled "Border Collies On Guard" George William Horlor, dated 1873

 

And another allegedly titled "Waiting and Watching - border collies" dated 1896

 

And just for fun - no mention of Border Collies, but too amusing to leave out... Spilt Milk - B. Riviere, 1868

[PennyT]

Thanks. I enjoyed looking at all three.

 

Where does the title of the 1873 Horlor come from? I get the impression you're sure it is contemporaneous with the picture. As you have figured out, modern titles dabbed on by both vendors and fanciers often create confusion.

 

If you run across the Gourlay Steell, let me know.

 

Penny

[geonni banner]

Thanks. I enjoyed looking at all three.

 

Where does the title of the 1873 Horlor come from? I get the impression you're sure it is contemporaneous with the picture. As you have figured out, modern titles dabbed on by both vendors and fanciers often create confusion.

 

If you run across the Gourlay Steell, let me know.

 

Penny

 

The Holor print had the same title exactly attached in the two places I found it. One was Christie's (sp)

[geonni banner]

More fun pictures... My all-time favorite Colley picture...

 

And two others that are fun...

[smithydog]

Post has been removed by author

[PennyT]

I'm trying to add one of my favorite pictures and am having trouble reducing the jpg.

 

Smithydog, the 1915 date is wrong.

 

Penny

[PennyT]

 

This one is 1907 Homer Davenport.

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This one is 1907 Homer Davenport.

 

And here I thought he just did Arabian horses...

[PennyT]

Davenport knew the dog. She belonged to By Geer, who I think was Davenport's uncle. Her name was Fly. While driving two hundred fifty head back that had dropped off from the main bunch by herself in the dark, she carried a new born lamb too weak to keep up. Geer surmised she was also alternately fighting off the ewe because for some time he "heard her sharp bark at intervals." The ewe must have gotten too tired to fight anymore so Fly stopped the periodic barking. When she could no longer be heard in the distance, Geer and his herd bedded the sheep down for the night. The next morning they waited. Around noon, Fly brought the stragglers in. "She was tired and traveling slow. One doe had given birth to a lamb, and old Fly had gathered it by the back of the neck as she would carry one of her pups."

 

Davenport described Fly as one of the "old school collies....glossy black, with white in her face, a big, broad white collar, four white feet, and a white tip to her tail. Her coat had...waves in it like the waves in some women's...hair. The old dog had serious moments but her habitual expression was smiling." After Fly's death, Geer quit the sheep business. He couldn't make a profit without her and couldn't replace her.

 

Landrace collies as good as Fly were rare jewels, never sold, and sometimes stolen. The history of sheep in the American west is peppered with tales of stolen sheepdogs and even a few murders over them.

 

I have not been able to track down any photos of Fly or diaries kept by Geer although it's true that I haven't looked in a long time. It's a shame Davenport didn't do more stockdog stories. He did do a wonderful cattle dog piece. The pair he wrote about were smooth coated, mottled, built like bricks, and vaguely resemble modern German coolies with a bit of pit or mastiff type thrown in.

 

What do you know about the three prints you posted? I think I recognize the first from an article. Can't remember where I saw it, and my files are on a different computer at the moment. The other two aren't ringing any bells. The style of the artist in the hugging dog drawing is familiar. Aldin? Who, then?

 

Penny

[geonni banner]

Davenport knew the dog. She belonged to By Geer, who I think was Davenport's uncle. Her name was Fly. While driving two hundred fifty head back that had dropped off from the main bunch by herself in the dark, she carried a new born lamb too weak to keep up. Geer surmised she was also alternately fighting off the ewe because for some time he "heard her sharp bark at intervals." The ewe must have gotten too tired to fight anymore so Fly stopped the periodic barking. When she could no longer be heard in the distance, Geer and his herd bedded the sheep down for the night. The next morning they waited. Around noon, Fly brought the stragglers in. "She was tired and traveling slow. One doe had given birth to a lamb, and old Fly had gathered it by the back of the neck as she would carry one of her pups."

 

Davenport described Fly as one of the "old school collies....glossy black, with white in her face, a big, broad white collar, four white feet, and a white tip to her tail. Her coat had...waves in it like the waves in some women's...hair. The old dog had serious moments but her habitual expression was smiling." After Fly's death, Geer quit the sheep business. He couldn't make a profit without her and couldn't replace her.

 

Landrace collies as good as Fly were rare jewels, never sold, and sometimes stolen. The history of sheep in the American west is peppered with tales of stolen sheepdogs and even a few murders over them.

 

I have not been able to track down any photos of Fly or diaries kept by Geer although it's true that I haven't looked in a long time. It's a shame Davenport didn't do more stockdog stories. He did do a wonderful cattle dog piece. The pair he wrote about were smooth coated, mottled, built like bricks, and vaguely resemble modern German coolies with a bit of pit or mastiff type thrown in.

 

What do you know about the three prints you posted? I think I recognize the first from an article. Can't remember where I saw it, and my files are on a different computer at the moment. The other two aren't ringing any bells. The style of the artist in the hugging dog drawing is familiar. Aldin? Who, then?

 

Penny

 

The second and third one are from Charles Darwin's 'The Expression of the Emotions in Man and Animals', 1872. The bristly on is called "Half bred Shepherd Dog with hostile intentions." The other was called "Half-bred Shepherd Dog Caressing His Master." Google the titles if you want to know more, as a couple of places are selling prints.

 

The first on was in an old animal encyclopedia I had which disappeared, and the site where I found it had no info, except a title - "Colley Dog" and a date - 1883. The engraver was not named.

 

Great story about the Davenport drawing.

[Jeanne Joy]

Dogs of all Nations by W. E. Mason - 1915 - refers to the working collie and working sheepdogs. On pages 112 - 113 he states: "The north of England and some parts of Scotland have always been noted for good dogs, the original strain being a cross between a smooth collie and a Scotch bearded collie."

[PennyT]

Dogs of all Nations by W. E. Mason - 1915 - refers to the working collie and working sheepdogs. On pages 112 - 113 he states: "The north of England and some parts of Scotland have always been noted for good dogs, the original strain being a cross between a smooth collie and a Scotch bearded collie."

 

In the previous century, a writer in a British ag periodical complained that you rarely saw the original strain anymore, whatever that was I hasten to add. If you're interested, I'll go find the quote. Again and again, the quality of the working dogs from the region was observed; less certain are assertions like "a cross between a smooth collie and a Scotch bearded collie." The most that can be said is that the author thought the original strain may have looked like it might have been a cross between what might have been the breeds described. Breeds as we know them today or as they were known in 1915 did not exist when the original strain came into being.

 

Mason, organizer of "Dogs of All Nations" exhibit which was also a huge pet shop selling the numerous breeds assembled, hired a Welsh handler/trainer by the name of J. Moses to put on demonstrations at the Pan-Pacific Expo in 1915. These were billed as sheepdog trials because a course was used. In the fall, there was supposed to be an international trial open to all comers, and men like James McLay were interested in it. I don't know if that trial came off. McLay died in late 1914 so he can't have gone. The agricultural departments got short shrift at the expo and for various reasons did not get as much attendance as the rest. In addition, there was a quarantine in place for at least part of 1915 (and maybe longer, I forget) which limited dog and livestock movement both inside the U.S. and from outside. I think that one issue was gid. In any case, I have not found an actual report of the widely advertised "International Sheep Dog Trials" for fall 1915 nor have I discovered if Mr. Moses did the earlier demos, only that he was hired and is featured in Mason's book.

 

The book, which seems to have been promotional material for sales of the dogs on display, offers a rare example of reasonably comprehensive, if succinct, instructions on stockdog training. While such detailed directions were not unique, the chapter stands out in my mind because along with a few other essays elsewhere I see more modern handling and training techniques emerging.

 

Mason wasn't the first to bring over a seasoned handler from Great Britain to show Americans how it's done, of course. T. S. Cooper, a livestock dealer who was an experienced farm handler and drover himself, did in 1880; then later a man named Bowden, who also exported Welsh trial dogs to the U. S. in the 1890s, tried to do the same for a World Fair prior to the turn of the last century; and in 1911 James Scott put together a crew who toured on a fair circuit. Their dogs were auctioned at the end of the season. One of the people who bought two of the dogs later competed at the Chicago Livestock Show. The Sioux City paper has a lively account of Sanitary Officer Lerch competing with one of the border collies in catching a runaway sheep at the final demonstration before the sale. To the jeers of the crowd, Lerch picked up the ewe and carried her off. Then, as now, state and county fairs weren't the easiest places to hold trials.

 

Penny

[PennyT]

If anyone is interested, the earliest use of "border collie" I've found in the U.S. is in an ad from upstate New York for border collie pups from the Heatherbell strain. The owner was Guy D. Power who also raised Ayrshire cattle. He seems to have been a successful gentleman farmer although I'm not really sure about that yet. If you know anything about him or the Heatherbell strain, let me know.

 

Penny

[Eileen Stein]

What was the date of that, Penny?

[PennyT]

1914. I think a Plattsburgh paper, anyway northern New York.

 

Guy D. Power & Sons in Messena.

 

His farm residence was in Louisville, I think. I don't know much about him yet. I am hoping you do. He may also have had a house or pied a tierre elsewhere but I may be projecting.

 

Also looking for John J. Storey from Bennington, VT who competed in the 1930s and was importing trained dogs as early as 1909. Ouija board, not border collie board may be my best bet.

 

But, hey, 1880-1882 Maryland is a goldmine.

 

Penny

[juliepoudrier]

I don't have anything useful to add to this discussion, but just wanted to say that I am really enjoying it! Keep talking....

 

J.

[PennyT]

I can't put my fingers on my copy of "Heather Jean" by Luke Pasco, written in the 30s as I recall. Pasco was the editor of "Sheep Breeder" and lived in New York state. I don't know when he started importing dogs. I think in the early thirties. He may have added Heather as a prefix to all his dogs' names or this could be a coincidence based on poetic imagery.

 

Here is the full ad from the "Massena Observer" on May 7, 1914:

FOR Sale-We offer 8 choice Border Collie puppies from Imported Burnside Heatherbell, one of Scottland's most famous strains; as a cattle driver she is without a rival. Price $5 each. GUY D. POWER & SON, Massena, N. Y.

[juliepoudrier]

Anyone know what that price is in today's dollars?

 

J.

[Liz P]

I found a web page that compares the wages of farmers and unskilled workers in the past versus present (USA). It has a calculator that converted $5 in 1914 to between $400 and $700 in today's wages.

[PennyT]

I found a web page that compares the wages of farmers and unskilled workers in the past versus present (USA). It has a calculator that converted $5 in 1914 to between $400 and $700 in today's wages.

 

That sounds like prices haven't changed much. Thanks. I was wondering, too.

 

I found another U.S. reference that I've had for years but forgot about. It's from the "Sioux City Tribune" of September 20, 1911. The dogs brought over by John Johnstone , who was also responsible for arranging the fair tour contracts, James Scott, and William Roberston were described as three breeds: "the smooth haired collie, the bearded collie and the border collie." The various photocopies courtesy of the Sioux City library won't reproduce well enough to bother uploading. The dogs look like four rough coated border collies, one smooth coated border collie, and an old-fashioned beardie.

 

Penny

[PennyT]

I found a web page that compares the wages of farmers and unskilled workers in the past versus present (USA). It has a calculator that converted $5 in 1914 to between $400 and $700 in today's wages.

 

That sounds like prices haven't changed much. Thanks. I was wondering, too.

 

I found another U.S. reference that I've had for years but forgot about. It's from the "Sioux City Tribune" of September 20, 1911. The dogs brought over by John Johnstone , who was also responsible for arranging the fair tour contracts, James Scott, and William Roberston were described as three breeds: "the smooth haired collie, the bearded collie and the border collie." The various photocopies courtesy of the Sioux City library won't reproduce well enough to bother uploading. The dogs look like four rough coated border collies, one smooth coated border collie, and an old-fashioned beardie; however, in 1911 there was still some overlap, so it is not beyond the realm of possibility that the smooth coat's owner regarded the dog as a KC type collie.

 

Penny

[PennyT]

On the theory that I'm not just talking to myself, I mention that both the Guy Power ad from 1914 and the 1911 Sioux City article give the impression that people had a passing familiarity with putting "border" and "collie" together to make a dog breed name. Power clearly expected buyers to know what he meant. From looking at old ads and articles, I suspect that means there are earlier examples out there somewhere. The only exception I've found is Robert Kaleski, Australian I think, who, long after the breed name was well known in his part of the world, refused to admit border collies as useful dogs into his consciousness and fastidiously put the term in quotes as if he were wrapping up a dead mouse.

 

I became interested in the usage for three reasons. First, I knew the ISDS didn't put it on papers until well into the 20th century, years after common use and decades after the stud book started. Second, looking at websites on the net is an exercise in hilarity. Everybody claims the same old photos as their breed. Without the least evidence, every photo of sheep and dog is claimed as border collie, Australian shepherd, English shepherd, AKC collie (glory be, some of these check out, particularly Central Park), and so on. Snake River, Idaho is especially likely to show up everywhere. Third, several years ago I went through the American Heritage Center's archive from Wentworth who wrote "America's Sheep Trails." In that wonderful book, he claims the trained dogs imported from the 1840s or so were mostly border collies. In the archived correspondence, no such evidence exists, only assertions. Consequently, identifying an early North American trained border collie becomes a matter of reading working descriptions which exist but aren't common and looking for the actual breed name which is likely to be more accurate but even then not 100%. To avoid unintentional deception, I usually say "landrace collie."

 

Penny

[Sue R]

You are not just talking to youself - I know I'm not the only one avidly reading your posts.

[Jeanne Joy]

Here is the reference you mentioned from America's Sheep Trails by Edward N. Wentworth

 

 

Jeanne

[juliepoudrier]

Wow, the "suckled by ewes" part is rather odd--I would think that would be something you might do with an LGD, but not a working sheepdog....

 

J.