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Sam - Introducing to Sheep Tomorrow for 1st Time!


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Hi Julie, its just a shame i don't live in your country, as it sounds like there are many trainers in the US and you obviously have a love for your dogs also.

 

I'm not saying that our trainers don't love our dogs at all, i'm just saying that the '1' trainer that i have visited didn't show 'any' care or love towards his dog and didn't show any respect to my dog either....

 

The other guy that was in the field, when i took Sam out, he started his dog, and his dog wasn't downing behind the sheep, so he started to run up to him with the wip in the air and above his shoulders, this is surely threatening the dog isn't it? Also as much as saying if you don't down i shall hit you?

 

I was looking on the Aled Owen website last night and he seems to have such a loving bond with his dogs even though he is a trainer, and i've always 'personally believed' that if you have that love bond with your dog then the dog is going to want to please you and do good for you, i think the stronger bond you've got the more you will get out of the dog......

 

Was reading Aled Owens story about his dog 'Roy' who has to be PTS in 2002, was really sad, if you've got time take a read, well worth it.....

 

This link will show you a picture of Aled and Roy (top right) - look at the love between them both...

 

http://www.aled-owen-sheepdogs.co.uk/

 

This is the sad story of Roy...

 

http://www.herding-dog-training-border-col...y_aled_owen.htm

 

Shame i don't live in Wales, as he sounds the perfect trainer to visit.....

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BCS,

I do think having a bond with your dog can make all the difference in the world, especially for softer dogs or dogs with issues who can gain needed confidence from the close bond they have with their owner/handler. But also remember that these dogs were bred for work and many of them, as long as there's work to be had/done, will be content in non-pet situations or even after changing hands a couple of times. While I personally do have a pet relationship with my working dogs, I don't think it's required. For me it's a personal choice--I see my dogs as companions and helpers, but then I also don't rely on my dogs to make a living, so it's set up from the start with a different set of expectations. My point is that there are many dogs who live in kennels and come out to work but don't live in the house with a family, and I expect that these dogs are perfectly happy because they are doing what they were meant to do. For those of us whose dogs are also pets/companions, that's just "icing on the cake" for them.

 

As for the guy with the whip, a tool in the wrong hands or used badly doesn't make the tool (in this case the whip) inherently bad. It simply means that the person wielding the tool isn't much of a trainer. What you describe above is an example of pressure and release (moving toward the dog, with or without a whip or stick in hand, is putting pressure on the dog to stop, and when the dog did stop, then the person should have *immediately* released the pressure by backing away and allowing the dog to bring the sheep on). Since I can't see the video, I can't really judge what the guy was doing, but I certainly have told students to go up the field and meet the dog if the dog is ignoring a lie down command, so that tactic in and of itself is not a bad one. As with any training issue, it all depends on timing, proper application, and a thorough understanding of working dogs in general and the individual dog in particular, and of course the livestock, because the dog will react in certain ways because of something the livestock have done, and if you as a trainer aren't aware of that, you may unfairly correct the dog.

 

Anyway, starting a young dog can certainly be chaotic, but don't let that turn you off to the process. If you are impressed with Aled and think his training style would suit you then it wouldn't hurt to contact him and see if he can recommend someone closer to you (or perhaps even take a holiday to Wales and meet him and try Sam there and then ask for a recommendation closer to home). It's often done that way here in the States: a new person will ask the question, say, on this forum, and then experienced trainers will point the newbie to someone near them that they are comfortable recommending.

 

J.

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My point is that there are many dogs who live in kennels and come out to work but don't live in the house with a family, and I expect that these dogs are perfectly happy because they are doing what they were meant to do. For those of us whose dogs are also pets/companions, that's just "icing on the cake" for them.

 

I also agree with what Julie said but would add that for me it's icing on MY cake!

 

After I got a start w/working my dogs, I saw the many different ways handlers treated their dogs. It was then that I decided if I couldn't have companions and working partners at the same time then I'd get out of the "game".

I'm not out of the game yet!

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They both started out by barreling straight at the sheep and grabbing whatever wool they could in the process. Apparently one type of dog this "trainer" said isn't worth training. One is running in open now and has been since last fall. The other is capable of the same, but has a few issues that have kept as back (and I already have three open dogs so there's no rush there...).

 

That's good to hear. Although I have no Open aspirations, Will on sheep is exactly as you described above. He got a mouthful of wool on Saturday, in fact, and went after a nose or two, as well. :rolleyes: My other two dogs have never been quite that bad, so I'm glad to hear there *might* be hope. :D

 

Anyway, BCS, Julie's had some great advice for you, and I couldn't say any of it any better. Everyone who has responded is far more experienced than I, but for what it's worth, I agree with finding a new trainer. The video was pure chaos, and I wouldn't make any judgements on Sam, based on what I saw there. The dog I was just talking about? Last time out, he was in a bigger field, and basically ran willy-nilly after sheep. Our trainer put a stop to that and put him in the round pen with more appropriate sheep for him, and he did just fine. There is plenty of time and hope for Sam to improve. Hang in there, it's worth it!

 

ETA: Oh, yeah. Elizabeth, my trainer has used a whip (I guess a buggy whip, as Julie called it?) with Jack in the past. It is NOT for hitting, he has never been (intentionally, at least) hit with it, it's only for the popping noise. I'm not adept at using it (I was the one who accidentally hit him), so I only use the stock stick now.

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Hi Julie and everybody else who has responded, thank you for your comments/advise, its nice to hear from people in the 'know' as i have no experience and didn't know whether Sam had 'any' future with sheep and didn't really know what to expect/do after that introduction.....

 

However, at least i realise now that it might have been the situation he was in, however personally both my wife and myself (but as i said we are not experts) were really pleased with what Sam did and we noticed him starting to relax a bit more with the sheep and starting to look like he wanted to move/work the sheep towards the end. and when the end came and the farmer said he wouldn't advise we persue it any further with sheep for Sam we were both completely shocked!

 

He also said something about if we did want to persue it further, it would take about 2 lessons per week to get him anywhere near what he would need and even then would never make a trials dog - but he also said something about if we did it could be disastrous if walking through farm land with him off the leash and he sees sheep.........????

 

I meant to question him on this as didn't quite know if this was something to do with the enthusiasm thing he was talking about earlier - being of the wrong type.....

 

I will be making some more enquiries this week regarding another trainer, and i've also already sent an email off to the ISDS asking them to provide me with details of any trainers in my area, i have received a 'read' receipt back but no email as of yet, but still early days.

 

Soni

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How can training him to work livestock cause problems when walking near or through a field of livestock.

All my dogs can work livestock, one of the first things they learn (takes a while to earn my trust) is that we NEVER work livestock without direction from me.

In AR my house was set right in one of my sheep fields. I wouldn't let a pup run free till they learned the rules but once trained a bit, they were all trust worthy of being outside and not doing anything with sheep unless I asked them to. No fences involved.

 

STM a dog less trained would not have the self control to do that. I'm sure there are folks on here who do not work livestock and can still trust their dogs to not go chasing livestock but a trained working dog would know it forsure. How trustworthy they might be would be up to you.

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He also said something about if we did want to persue it further, it would take about 2 lessons per week to get him anywhere near what he would need and even then would never make a trials dog - but he also said something about if we did it could be disastrous if walking through farm land with him off the leash and he sees sheep.........????

 

I meant to question him on this as didn't quite know if this was something to do with the enthusiasm thing he was talking about earlier - being of the wrong type.....

I think that what the trainer was referring to is that once a dog is "turned on" to livestock, then you have a potential problem in that he/she is now going to be interested in stock. But, a well-trained dog, especially one that has been trained on stock, should never "go to work" on stock without being sent by the handler. Therefore, if Sam is well-trained (and especially if he has had training on stock), you should have him under your control.

 

I think that, in general, for dogs that have been well-trained off stock and have had some training on stock (and that's not necessarily a lot of training on stock), and learned well how to call off stock and that he/she is not to engage with stock without being sent to do so, there should not be a problem. Even my young Dan, who has had limited exposure to stock, has a call-off command ("That'll do, here.") and the understanding that he is not to head out to stock unless sent - well, most of the time! He's still trying to beat me sometimes but every time he's trained, he gets better.

 

Now that Sam is "turned on", you do need to be diligent and not place him in a position where he might get into trouble. I am sure that with your good training and his attentiveness to you, you will be able to control most any situation with good management.

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When I watched the video I saw a dog very worried about his master's wishes. I think Sam, even at this stage could be amongst livestock and still have a head enough to listen to his owner. As Sue said..."most" of the time. :rolleyes:

If there's enough exposure to livestock (ex. walking near fields with sheep or cattle in them), most working bred dogs are going to turn on wether you want them to or not. I'd much rather have one that has some idea that there's a time and a place.

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I have been letting the ewes with lambs, the ewes due to lamb, and the ewes being bred by the ram (and the ram) out in to my yard to graze. The dogs use the yard too and are all (save one) working dogs. While I wouldn't just let the dogs out into the yard with the sheep, I can let them out when we want to go for a walk on the back of the property and have them come with me and leave the sheep alone.

 

As others have noted, once he's working livestock he will be more interested in working stock when you are out on walks. But if he's got a good recall, he'll soon learn that there's a time and place for working and that he can't just go off and start working every farm animal he sees. You will have to be more diligent about keeping an eye on him on your walks though.

 

Paula,

There's certainly hope, if he doesn't kill you along the way, lol! With Lark, who was sensible and had a natural outrun, I was able to work the rams and wethers in a couple-acre field starting her out. For Pip and Phoebe, trying to do that was disastrous, even with Twist trying to help keep things under control. I ended up having to buy dog broke sheep and use a round pen. Ranger is somewhere in the middle. He started out so nice as to be a bit scary. But as I said, he regressed from that point to the "I've got to try and bite one" stage, and the pendulum has now swung back the other way, and while he's a bit balls to the wall, he's at least not trying to grab things. I think he's going to be nice, at least as far as I can tell right now....

 

J.

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