Amy Posted November 10, 2002 Report Share Posted November 10, 2002 All right, maybe hanging out with my lawyer clients is affecting me. BUT...on every trial entry and for most of the clinics I've been to you must sign a release stating that in the event your dogs harms a sheep you must pay for the sheep. Okay that is fair enough..BUT how much will that be? Since no dollar value is ever assigned on the release what prevents sheep price gorging. Then do you get to keep the sheep and have your friends over for a sheep bar-b-que? A little too much time on my hands this morning..can you tell? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smokjbc Posted November 10, 2002 Report Share Posted November 10, 2002 Hello, I always assummed it was the fair market value for the animal. One of the scary thoughts of cow dog trialing LOL but far less likely than sheep mortality, thank God. I do give beginner lessons and allow sheep practice and I do assign a $100 charge (about $25 over fair market value for my ewes). Of course I have one ewe that if she was injured or killed, I might have to claim emotional damages but I try not to work her with inexperienced dogs. I have not had to apply it thus far, but I have not had to deal with very rough dogs. I would assume also that if someone's dog had killed a sheep, and they paid cash money for it that day, they could have a bbq if they wish but would be fully responsible for arranging it. Jaime [This message has been edited by Smokjbc (edited 11-10-2002).] [This message has been edited by Smokjbc (edited 11-10-2002).] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest PrairieFire Posted November 11, 2002 Report Share Posted November 11, 2002 My stock contract for "trial rental" of sheep specifies a cost - $150 for a breeding ewe and market value for anything else...maybe it's something you should ask about if you're concerned. I've only ever seen one sheep actually "ruined" - and that was at a round pen clinic - when the dog took a real cheap shot and ripped open an udder...otherwise most damage is repairable with a staple gun and some rest... Wear and tear is the biggest problem - I bet a trial stresses livestock WAY beyond what most folks think, even if only run in Open, much less Novice and Nursery - add to that any travel stress...and in the grand scheme of things may take 10% off the value of the stock - through condition loss, stress, extra feed necessary to recover, etc...unfortunately, most folks who "let" thier sheep be used at trial do so for the love of the sport and just take the hit... ------------------ Bill Gary Kensmuir, Working Stockdog Center River Falls, WI 715.426.9877 www.kensmuir.com [This message has been edited by PrairieFire (edited 11-11-2002).] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amy Posted November 11, 2002 Author Report Share Posted November 11, 2002 Jamie, That was my thought assumed market value..but the releases I've signed never state that. Bill, Not really concerned, just wondered why an amount isn't mentioned. Seems like there is an openning there for some problems if anything were ever to happen. Like I said I hang out with to many lawyers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Charles Torre Posted November 11, 2002 Report Share Posted November 11, 2002 My $.02... In my vast experience, the replacement price is usually stated explicitly, and $150 is the price I see the most. Now, the market around here is such that $150 is often a little high. But nobody seems to mind; people that supply sheep for trials, clinics, etc. are to be pampered. charlie [This message has been edited by Charles Torre (edited 11-11-2002).] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
workindogs Posted November 11, 2002 Report Share Posted November 11, 2002 Personally, I think the replacement price should be set a little higher than FMV for a trial (perhaps not for a clinic). Handler's should think carefully whether their dog is ready to trial...if the dog savages the stock then the cost should be high. It's the principal of the matter...the stock should not be abused. If the handler has had to fork over $$$, perhaps he/she will think seriously about whether their dog is ready for the open field. Ok, I understand that stock can be lost due to a crazed panic breaking its neck when it rams into something (usually with a dog on its heels), or stepping in a hole or other freak accidents. But, there should be some deterent to people who have little regard for the well being of the stock and let their dog savage the stock. Their are a couple of handlers that have track records at trials and you can almost predict that disaster will strike. "EXHAUST!! On your mark! Jerry Clueless is up with his dog Ripper" These handlers should pay heavily for injured or dead stock, but ultimately clubs should consider banning frequent abusers. Just my opinion. Elizabeth [This message has been edited by workindogs (edited 11-11-2002).] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brookcove Posted November 11, 2002 Report Share Posted November 11, 2002 >"EXHAUST!! On your mark! Jerry Clueless is up with his dog Ripper" < You know we have the NC Novice Series here. For the lower classes, particularly on hot days, they will post a spotter on a four wheeler to run interference. All very good-naturedly, of course. The main reason for the Novice Series is education of up and coming handlers, and responsible stockmanship is strongly emphasized. People do get the point, too. They've been pretty good about not bringing their dogs out until they're under control and going and getting their dogs if need be. Between the precautions and enlightened handlers, I don't think anybody has had to purchase a sheep in five or six trials or more. Knock on wood! ------------------ Rebecca Brook Cove Farm, NC Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest PairDogx1.5 Posted November 13, 2002 Report Share Posted November 13, 2002 I'm happy to see this topic, it's something I've always wondered about in the little bit that I've read and the few events I've attended. It seems to me that there could be many grey areas, or different interpretations of terms like "damage". What keeps this from being a problem, is it just the great quality of the folks involved? The way I feel presently, at my pre-novice (i.e., ignorant) stage, is that I would rather pay a higher entry fee and I'd be happy if that helped cover "wear & tear", and only pay for livestock if it was rendered useless. Or at least see some more clear definition of what constitutes "damaged stock". I have seen several trials advertised where the guidelines for entry state "NO GRIPPING ALLOWED". Is this fairly common? Thanks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laura Posted November 13, 2002 Report Share Posted November 13, 2002 Around here, we always have replacement value for a sheep printed on the entry form. It's up to the discretion of the sheep owner what constitutes enough damage to charge the replacement cost. I have never seen it abused, but if a handler has a dog that is harassing the sheep and it ends up in a slash, I have no problem whatsoever with the owner charging the full replacement value even if the sheep is not completely mangled. Of course, in this case the handler has bought him or herself a sheep. Maybe they will think a little more before deciding that their dog is ready to trial! ( I haven't bought a sheep, but I have had a persistant gripping problem, so I've been there myself.) Some people are known for letting out of control situations go on and on at trials, thinking only of getting their paid for time at the post and with no regard for the well being of the livestock, and I think being charged for a sheep might help them to rethink this approach. Personally, I would resent having entry fees increased to cover the cost of somebody's bad grip. Entry fees are high enough to be prohibitive for some people already. As far as "no gripping allowed" appearing on trial entries - I'm afraid that the dogs often don't follow this rule! It usually means something like "all grips will result in disqualification." Sometimes this is a stipulation of the sheep owner, and some clubs (the B.C. Stockdog Association, I believe, for one) have an across the board policy disallowing dogs that grip from continuing, regardless of the situation. This is probably unfortunate, since a grip can be appropriate, but it is quite understandable. The perception of sheep as "dog toys" does not promote respect for livestock. Also, "animal rights" people could easily bring about the demise of dog trialing as a "sport" if the public sees dogs biting sheep in a pursuit of leasure activity. Laura [This message has been edited by Laura (edited 11-13-2002).] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest PrairieFire Posted November 13, 2002 Report Share Posted November 13, 2002 Having been at a trial with feedlot blackfaces that had seldom (and only very recently) seen a dog, and had never walked further than the feedbunk...I can attest that grips were a neccisity until these little buggers understood the dogs had teeth and that they should show some respect... After a couple of runs, they acted more like "normal" sheep - but we joked that perhaps the first runs should be judged like a cattle trial - so many points for forcing each head through the obstacle... "Hits" and "grips" can be a total necissity - either on the farm or on the field. That is what a judge is for - to decide whether that proper hit was really a grip...something most of us know, really, anyway... ------------------ Bill Gary Kensmuir, Working Stockdog Center River Falls, WI 715.426.9877 www.kensmuir.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest PairDogx1.5 Posted November 13, 2002 Report Share Posted November 13, 2002 I'm more than a little surprised to learn that there are people entering trials who are only interested in getting their paid-for time at the post, allow out-of-control situations to continue, and have no concern for the livestock. I would think it wouldn't take long before their entry forms were returned to them unprocessed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mckaycanada Posted November 13, 2002 Report Share Posted November 13, 2002 We were at a trial where the novice portion was run in a huge arena. One dog ran a ewe into a post twice before the handler left the post. The ewe died. The same handler was some pissed when they weren't allowed to exhaust for the pro-novice. Ground rules need to be set clearly in advance so that people recall that we are, after all, shepherds. I'd set the price high and higher on the second offence. John Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ikw Posted November 13, 2002 Report Share Posted November 13, 2002 >>>Having been at a trial with feedlot blackfaces that had seldom (and only very recently) seen a dog, and had never walked further than the feedbunk<<< Hey Bill, I moved those sheep just last week,don't tell me they found their way up to your area.. Those type of sheep thinks they are so clever trying to beat the dog back to the feeders,it's pathetic. Grips in dogs are quite necessary whether it's the trials field or farm/ranch operation. Surely we get many bleeding hearts feeling ever so sorry for that poor sheep who got bitten by a ravaging maniac dog,those I tell them to go and catch the sheep themselves so we could administer the necessary lotions and potions. Takes about 10 minutes of chase on their parts,when they're out of breath looking quite grey in the face and sweating like a stuck pig,they get the picture fast. In trials situations,we have the judges to make the call whether the grip was necessary or not and all we could say is "thank you!" when we get called off. John,I had one sheep who was so resentful about having a non-gripping,non-abusive dog fecthing them,dumba** jumped into the icy pond to get away. By the time I reached her and tried to fish her out,she was deader than a door nail. So,there's no saying why sheep do what they do,similar to the one you witnessed at your trial. Most sheep will turn and fight under those situations instead of trying to run through a fence. Handler should've called his dog as soon as he noticed the run wasn't going good and not let it to that point but majority of the handlers I've come across operate with "I paid,I'll run" mentality. If you'll watch most of the top handlers,when their dog fails to take more than couple of correction whistles,they finish their run and call off their dogs. In the meantime,while anyone could sign a dotted line to pay up,it is a hard task to enforce any payments for losses. Crossing states,etc,everything gets muddied very fast. Unless of course, the course director could impound the marauding teams vehicle and preventing them from leaving until they pay. ------------------ Inci Willard Clearville,PA 814-784-3414 ikw@pennswoods.net Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest PairDogx1.5 Posted November 13, 2002 Report Share Posted November 13, 2002 curiouser & curiouser... What Inci said about it being difficult to collect payment for damaged livestock, this too surprised me. I'm just really naive and have alot to learn I guess. But I would think a person would WANT to pay the fee they'd agreed to, if their dog damaged someone else's livestock to the point it required repair or replacement. Isn't the spirit of shepherding intrinsically bound up within everything to do with Border Collies and the handling of them? What are people thinking? Is trialing becoming just another doggie sport for many people, like jumping off a platform into a pool?? In this mentality, the sheep at a trial serve the same function as the water at a water jump? Who cares if the dog causes pieces of the water to fly all over the place? How could someone truly know these dogs & their work, and still think like that? I just don't get it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laura Posted November 14, 2002 Report Share Posted November 14, 2002 For something that's "not brain surgery," learning to work with the dogs, livestock, and to particpate in trials has a pretty wicked learning curve. I don't think you can possibly know what you don't understand until you experience it for yourself. For example, when I was starting, I attended a clinic with my (badly bred, untalented - but I didn't want to look at that) dog, given by a Scot with a lot to offer. The sheep were down a hill at the edge of an unfenced, recently cleared field. They were facing into the woods. I sent my dog, who was always rash and tight, around the wide side to the sheep's butts. I don't remember why I decided to send her that way. I probably didn't even really think about it, because I would have been worrying about her outrun, whether she would stop, and all that. I'm sure some people who haven't trained a dog or learned anything about handling livestock with a dog first hand will think that they would never make such a lamebrained error - time will tell! I was so embarassed when I realized what a dumb move I'd made, I NEVER would have thought I'd do something so stupid! Predictably (by someone with a clue, anyway), Dee ran tight and sliced the top, causing the sheep to bust into the very rough forest. It took a long time for them to be retreived, and the clinician could hardly be polite to me because I had caused such a mess and really stressed the sheep, put the schedule off track, etc. Many of the people that don't retire when they have an out of control run are not conciously thinking "I paid for my time and I'll take it," though there are plenty that are. A lot of these folks are just clueless as to what's going on with the livestock. They may have tunnel vision regarding a goal they have set, for example, be determined to make the panels or to complete the course. As Inci said, the really good handlers know when it's time to say "Uncle" and it doesn't take them too long to do it. They also know their dogs and can tell if they are getting something out of the experience they are giving the dog on the field or just allowing misbehavior and messing with the sheep. On the other hand, there are those of us who are never going to get better because we are all to ready to retire when the going gets tough. It's a fine line to tread. Laura Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amy Posted November 14, 2002 Author Report Share Posted November 14, 2002 So some releases do state a value..that seem smart. But the more I think about this I would have to agree that the figure should be a bit above market value..to be fair..after all you not only have to replace the sheep you have to either dig a hole or butcher the dead one..Nothing like more work..heh? It's not just novice people with no regard for livestock..I know one open handler who will sit there and tell you the point on the course when his dog will begin to eat sheep..yes and it always does.. As far as the no gripping sounds like they have had problems and just got fed up with handlers allowing their dogs to man handle sheep. There is a point where before things get out of hand you need to call your dog off. Alot of handlers don't seem to want to admit defeat. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
workindogs Posted November 14, 2002 Report Share Posted November 14, 2002 Amy, When I wrote my post, I was also thinking of a couple of Open handlers who regularly have problems. And, yes, there is work involved with trying to save or bury a dead sheep. It's to be expected on the Novice course. Most Novices will learn if they stick with it and progress. Elizabeth Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest PrairieFire Posted November 14, 2002 Report Share Posted November 14, 2002 Well, we seem to have opened a few different discussions as usual... Retiring when things aren't going well is an interesting thing...I emailed Inci after compiling scores at my trial about something I discovered by looking so closely at all the scores... In 3 runs (both PN and Open) I walked away from the post with more points than the 5th place dog finished with - and I hadn't even gotten to the pen or shed...which, without bragging, my dogs and I do fairly well... I guess I had never really looked so closely at the trial scores (especially at each portion of the course) as I did when I needed to compile all those from my trial. Like Inci mentions, I retire if my little darlings balk "too much" - or "stop listening" (by my own limited definition)...however, if I really wanted to "finish in the money" - it appears as I shouldn't do that...but still continue. Now, admittedly, this isn't when my dogs decide that they need to "school" a recalcitrant ewe, or even use a proper grip - but when they, by my standards, "disobey"... Not really clarifying things, rather, I think, muddying them... ------------------ Bill Gary Kensmuir, Working Stockdog Center River Falls, WI 715.426.9877 www.kensmuir.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amy Posted November 14, 2002 Author Report Share Posted November 14, 2002 This is my topic..Roaming off in other directions permitted. As far as when to retire..Here's some food for thought. Living in a herding wasteland it's hard to get experience (different sheep, places, circumstances etc) for my dogs and myself. So I asked at a trial if I could run my dog nursey..non-compete for the experience. I was fairly sure that I couldn't get him around the whole course..BUT I knew that I could keep control..my problem would be the distance on the cross drive.. My reasoning in doing that while this dog is very talented he lacks experience and I need to improve my handling skills at this level. Well we made it up until halfway through the crossdrive..At which time I knew things were getting over our heads..I ended the crossdrive and exhausted the sheep. Some people thought I should of keep going..BUT my goal was to gain experience and confidence at the level..Which we did..And both me and my dog walked off the field feeling that we had accomplished something. Our run was pretty nice up to that point..but I knew that we had more then pushed both of us (Okay my skills more the the dogs) to the limit. I think what Laura says is true that if you always retire when things get bumpy your never going to get there. However retire before losing control and sheep eating. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest PairDogx1.5 Posted November 14, 2002 Report Share Posted November 14, 2002 Thank you Laura for clarifying how situations can be "out of control" or otherwise detracting, without it necessarily being willful disregard on the part of the handler. Like I say, I have alot to learn, and that's what I'm trying to do. And thanks everyone for the elucidations and expansions, and thanks to Amy for allowing her topic to roam . Laura mentioned "a fine line to tread", and it seems to me that there are lots of fine lines, as well as differing philosophies. I know in the relatively few times I've been able to train with my dog, I was probably over-concious right from the start about my dog slashing in or being pushy or taking cheap shots, sometimes coming out with a bit of wool in her teeth, I'd yell and stop her, even though it was already over, she never persisted. And the trainer (the owner of the sheep) would tell me to shut up and let my dog be. It took me quite a few lessons, but I was finally able to resist the urge to protect the sheep, and the first time I ignored a slash, the trainer yelled at my dog for it. So it was confusing. I understand now that it was because by then it was time to end the "young new dog" antics and make her understand cheap shots were out. But things can still be confusing. I went to a clinic, and the first time my dog even looked like she was thinking about a dive in, I told her to get out of it, and the person giving the clinic told me to leave her alone, said she was working good for us, and he didn't want to jump on every little thing at this point, then the dog will think they can't please you no matter what. I explained that I'm always worried about the sheep, and he said you can ruin your dog by being too worried about the sheep. So it's still a little confusing, but I'm sure it will all make some sense as time goes by and I get more experience. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laura Posted November 14, 2002 Report Share Posted November 14, 2002 It could all be an issue of timing as well. A lot of people are so worried about loss of controll of their dog that they are constantly trying to stop it and they end up preventing it from working the sheep. A good trainer will give the verbal or physical (I don't mean hitting - I mean body language type pressure)correction for gripping or thinking about diving in at just the proper moment, HELPING the dog to understand exactly what it is doing wrong. This is balanced by a lot of "rewards" when the dog is doing things right. I DON'T mean treats, "good boy," etc. I mean release of pressure from the handler and giving the dog the sheep. Most of us take a while to even approach this ability. In the mean time, we are keeping our dogs from working sheep, or letting them maul sheep - good thing the dogs are so forgiving. Laura Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brookcove Posted November 14, 2002 Report Share Posted November 14, 2002 Timing is everything on correcting those dives. I, too, didn't understand why my trainer seemed to yell at me for both correcting and not correcting in what seemed to be the identical situations! Now those awful late/inappropriate corrections are glaringly obvious to me too, but I remember when I couldn't tell the difference between my correction and the trainer's. I still screw up pretty often but most of the time I know to take my crook and give MYSELF a timely correction. ------------------ Rebecca Brook Cove Farm, NC Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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