Socializing with Cats

[Bordercolliemom2294]

I am really working on this but I can't have them in the same space unless I am holding Bella and Bruno is also contained. It just isn't safe yet. Bruno is not nearly as interested until Bella really alerts him. I have tried food etc. I like the idea of treating her in the presence of the cat to make the positive association, and then gradually working towards treating her when she behaves appropriately in the presence of the cat and giving it a cue. Problem is I can't get her interested in any food when the cat is around. I have tried some of her favorite treats and some new ones as well. I am conflicted because if I get more stern with my voice she will move her focus for a moment, but then I wonder if she will associate negative input with the cat. When I can get her to not over focus on the cat, I give her lots of positive reinforcement but it doesn't seem to be making a dent. Thanks everyone for the ideas and the feedback.

[juliepoudrier]

So, sometimes just asking a dog to stop isn't enough. Sometimes it takes a real bark of authority from you, something startling and pointed enough to really make them snap to attention. After all, if an older dog wants a pup to stop doing something, they're just going to turn their head and give a "YARP!" that makes even us jump. All you'd be doing is borrowing on the dogs' own form of communication, by using a sudden noise to end an undesirable behavior.

 

The point you really want to make is that stalking, staring, nipping or any other form of prey-play towards the cat is absolutely verbotten. It's only negative training for that split second, and you can follow up with a "Good leave it" or whatever, once she's given way and stopped. Startling the dog won't hurt her any more than if an older dog snapped at her but didn't bite. It's a language she understands.

This is excellent advice and bears repeating, which is why I've quoted it. A correction like rattling pennies isn't going to cause permanent psychological harm to your dog. An improperly trained dog can, however, cause permanent physical damage to the cat. I know you know that, but honestly I do think this is a case where an appropriate, properly timed correction is perfectly acceptable, for the reasons Gloria describes, and especially if you want them all to live in harmony sometime before you all die of old age. (When my 8-month-old pup is fixated on something, no amount of yummy treats will get his attention--I need to either go get him and physically remove him or give a loud clap or similar to break that intense concentration and bring his focus onto me. In your situation when the dog is staring at the cat, I would break the focus with the pennies, clapping, a "Hey you!" or similar and then ask the dog for an alternate behavior incompatible with staring at the cat, for example, lying down on a mat near you, facing away from the baby gate the cat is behind.) JMO.

 

BTW, I have 10 dogs, who arrived here as either adult rescues, adult purchases, or pups, and I've had has many as six cats, many of whom were here first and a few of which were added after the dogs, and I've *never* had a dog associate a correction for bad behavior around cats with anything other than that they should leave the cat alone. (I'm not even quite sure what you mean about Bella associating your negative response with the cat--if her behavior is inappropriate, she *should* associate the negative response with her behavior toward the cat--that's the whole connection you want her to make--if I do X WRT to the cat, I will be corrected, therefore I should leave the cat alone. This doesn't mean that she will end up never interacting with the cat, but rather that she will learn that some interactions aren't corrected and that those are *appropriate* interactions.) In my situation, correcting the dog hasn't made the dog afraid of cats or afraid of me when a cat is in the room. I don't see how the human correcting the dog is any different than the cat correcting the dog (except the dog may initially have more respect for the human than the cat). I have one cat who is happy to correct a pup, and the initial whaps to the face are with claws retracted (but you can sure hear the impact from quite a bit away). The pups subjected to this treatment haven't later shown an inordinate fear of cats, but instead seem to simply learn that they need to not harass the cat, or there are consequences, just as they would had they been corrected by an adult dog for inappropriate behavior around that dog. (Note that I wouldn't just set pups loose on the cat, I am always watching closely when a pup meets this particular cat for the first time, but that's mainly because I want to ensure that the cat doesn't get hurt, not the opposite, since the cat has shown himself to be sensible in his interactions with pups.)

 

J.

[PSmitty]

^^Ditto Julie and Gloria.

 

Will came to us with what seemed like no cat experience, and though he wasn't TOO fixated on them, we had to work for a while to teach him not to pounce, chase, or annoy the cats. (OK, admittedly, he does still annoy them a bit. ) It took some well-timed corrections (BEFORE the chase drive was engaged) for him to catch on, but he did. Everyone gets along great now. It's been 6 months since he joined us.

 

[MaryP]

I will preface this by saying that I don't own cats, though I did in the distant past. Also, I haven't read all the posts, just the OP’s first post and an occasional post, or parts thereof, here and there.

 

Personally, I wouldn't try to force the situation, if you have any concerns about the cat's safety. From what you described of your dog's intense interest in the cat, I'd be a little leery about trying to make them cohabitate. I have three dogs. All of them love to chase cats, if they are ever given the opportunity. Milo chases just because it’s fun, but would never hurt a cat. When I had just Milo, I used to cat-sit for a friend and he had no problem with the cat (the cat did not fear dogs) and never bothered the cat. Charlie would be pretty easy to teach to live with a cat. He'll take a correction and though he likes to chase small running animals, he's not really interested in catching them. Skittles, I'm quite certain, would kill a cat, if given the opportunity. His prey drive is just too strong and he is in it for the kill.

 

The description you gave of your dog's reaction to the cat sounded an awful lot like what Skittles' reaction to a cat is like. I could be wrong, though, since I wasn't there to witness it and I don't know your dog like you do. But, I've known people whose cats have been killed by their dogs and I can't even imagine how that must feel. I had a foster home who had a dog that started out as a foster dog, but then she decided to keep the dog (not one of my foster dogs; it was a private rescue). She emailed me one day to ask me if I could help her place the dog because the dog had killed one of her cats. This was after she had had the dog for quite some time. I can't remember how long, but I'm thinking it was at least a year. Of course, I tried to help her, but by the time she did place the dog (it took quite a long time), the dog had killed a second cat. Why she allowed the dog access to the cats after the first incident is beyond me, but my point is, is it worth it to risk the safety of the cat, if your dog is showing such strong interest in him? Just my $0.02.

 

Again, I could be totally off base here, since this isn't really an area where I have a lot of experience.

[Bordercolliemom2294]

I do think this is good feedback as well. I did work yesterday with a more stern response from me and it is making a small dent. Her focus will soften and I can get her to come to me and lay down etc. She has also had a more normal amount of exercise this week which has helped as well. We had 3-4 days where we were out of town and our dog sitter/friend was sick and didn't get the dogs out at all. They are used to a daily two hour hike. I will report back after the weekend and some more work with everyone.

 

Thanks again. Your experience and expertise has been very helpful.

 

Cheers

[geonni banner]

I agree that correcting a dog for being too pushy or stalking, etc. is entirely appropriate. I also use a "Hey!" If the dog is being obnoxious - pawing the napping cat to get it to play or the occasional resource guarding behavior - staring at the cat when he investigates a new dog toy. If the dog does not cease and desist pronto, she has to do "puppy push-ups." (sit - down - sit - down - sit - down) Most dogs are really not into puppy push-ups, and my dog knows that she'll have to "get down and give me 10" if she's gratuitously bugging the cat.

[Ooky]

I've *never* had a dog associate a correction for bad behavior around cats with anything other than that they should leave the cat alone. (I'm not even quite sure what you mean about Bella associating your negative response with the cat--if her behavior is inappropriate, she *should* associate the negative response with her behavior toward the cat--that's the whole connection you want her to make--if I do X WRT to the cat, I will be corrected, therefore I should leave the cat alone. This doesn't mean that she will end up never interacting with the cat, but rather that she will learn that some interactions aren't corrected and that those are *appropriate* interactions.) In my situation, correcting the dog hasn't made the dog afraid of cats or afraid of me when a cat is in the room. I don't see how the human correcting the dog is any different than the cat correcting the dog (except the dog may initially have more respect for the human than the cat).

 

I have to agree with this. I know a lot of times it gets brought up that correcting a dog may make it more fearful or that it will have unintended consequences such as making it associate bad feelings with something you don't want, like in this situation, the cat. I just wanted to add that this has not been my experience with a FAIR correction, either between pet species or when I correct my dog.

 

My own cat has corrected Odin many, many times. He has great respect for Benway but they are also the best of friends. But it sounds like you can't count on this at all because your cat is declawed.

 

It was not difficult to make my dog stop harassing the cats as I had help from here and stopped it early as a puppy, and then the cats backed it up themselves. But he had a REALLY hard time with little dogs when he was an adolescent. He didn't treat them like dogs, or with any respect, and he was fixated. He focused on them really intently, worked them, nipped them, and generally made them miserable. In my case, I had tried sharp verbal corrections like "HEY" and hand claps many times, physically removing him and leashing him, and the effect never lasted long at all, also Odin started ignoring my corrections anyway - they had become nagging. So we had a "come to jesus" moment one day. I was just FED UP, and it was much harsher than pansmom describes. My goal was to make him realize it was absolutely verboten, like Gloria says. As he started working my aunt's yorkie again, I descended on him, very loud noise and stern tone of voice, and gave him a stern scruff shake and really got in his face. (I know he won't bite me if I do this, I wouldn't do it if I didn't.) The yorkie ran away and cowered, and my mother in law's doberman, who was also inccoently hanging around, was so scared she peed herself on the spot. So it was pretty intense. But Odin's demeanor changed after that. Afterwards, he never needed more than a mild verbal "reminder" to watch his manners with small dogs. I had successfully made my point.

 

I'm not suggesting that you do this, as I think it's up to you what you consider an appropriate correction. I felt for me and my dog and our situation, this was appropriate. My point is, though, that it was one of the harshest corrections my dog has ever recieved, and WAY harsher than pebbles in a can. He did NOT translate any bad fellings or fear to either me or that specific yorkie or little dogs in general. On the contrary, we now live in an apt complex with its own dog park and lots of neighbor dogs that we know. A lot of the small dog people have gone out of their way to tell me that Odin is the only large dog their dogs will play with. He is sweet to them, and gentle, and at the same time loves playing with them. One of his best doggie friends is a tiny bichon. I really have to take some pictures of them playing as it is too cute. So I'm just saying that I wouldn't fear a big problem occurring from a fair, appropriate correction, unless your dog has known anxiety issues or something.

[geonni banner]

I have to agree with this. I know a lot of times it gets brought up that correcting a dog may make it more fearful or that it will have unintended consequences such as making it associate bad feelings with something you don't want, like in this situation, the cat. I just wanted to add that this has not been my experience with a FAIR correction, either between pet species or when I correct my dog.

 

My own cat has corrected Odin many, many times. He has great respect for Benway but they are also the best of friends. But it sounds like you can't count on this at all because your cat is declawed.

 

It was not difficult to make my dog stop harassing the cats as I had help from here and stopped it early as a puppy, and then the cats backed it up themselves. But he had a REALLY hard time with little dogs when he was an adolescent. He didn't treat them like dogs, or with any respect, and he was fixated. He focused on them really intently, worked them, nipped them, and generally made them miserable. In my case, I had tried sharp verbal corrections like "HEY" and hand claps many times, physically removing him and leashing him, and the effect never lasted long at all, also Odin started ignoring my corrections anyway - they had become nagging. So we had a "come to jesus" moment one day. I was just FED UP, and it was much harsher than pansmom describes. My goal was to make him realize it was absolutely verboten, like Gloria says. As he started working my aunt's yorkie again, I descended on him, very loud noise and stern tone of voice, and gave him a stern scruff shake and really got in his face. (I know he won't bite me if I do this, I wouldn't do it if I didn't.) The yorkie ran away and cowered, and my mother in law's doberman, who was also inccoently hanging around, was so scared she peed herself on the spot. So it was pretty intense. But Odin's demeanor changed after that. Afterwards, he never needed more than a mild verbal "reminder" to watch his manners with small dogs. I had successfully made my point.

 

I'm not suggesting that you do this, as I think it's up to you what you consider an appropriate correction. I felt for me and my dog and our situation, this was appropriate. My point is, though, that it was one of the harshest corrections my dog has ever recieved, and WAY harsher than pebbles in a can. He did NOT translate any bad fellings or fear to either me or that specific yorkie or little dogs in general. On the contrary, we now live in an apt complex with its own dog park and lots of neighbor dogs that we know. A lot of the small dog people have gone out of their way to tell me that Odin is the only large dog their dogs will play with. He is sweet to them, and gentle, and at the same time loves playing with them. One of his best doggie friends is a tiny bichon. I really have to take some pictures of them playing as it is too cute. So I'm just saying that I wouldn't fear a big problem occurring from a fair, appropriate correction, unless your dog has known anxiety issues or something.

 

Hear, hear!

[Bordercolliemom2294]

Thank you. Just a correction. Hope is not declawed, and will not be declawed ever.

 

I will keep everyone posted. I am hopeful I can make this work, and learn a lot in the process. I wouldn't go to these lengths if I didn't think in the end Bella would enjoy having the cat as an appropriate playmate and vice versa.

 

The dogs rarely bark at the cat on the other side of the door or gate anymore. They will occasionally if she is meowing, but otherwise they don't.

 

More soon.

 

Thanks again

[pansmom]

^^^I agree with everyone above that if extremely high quality treats aren't getting the dog's attention and the mild corrections like hand claps and stuff don't work to snap her out of her quivering cat-trance, you're probably going to have to do something worse to snap her out of it at least once. A "come to jesus" moment like I described is probably something you'd be comfortable with--you sound like you are pretty-positive based and not yet frustrated enough that any physical contact would feel natural to you--and only doing what feels natural is important. Then, after that, shaking a can of pebbles is something you can do. You'll have to be quick too, well timed, the exact moment she fixates, every time for a while. But she needs rewards too for when she is good around the cat. What is Bella's favorite thing in the world? (I hope not cats! And if so... yeah, you're definitely gonna have to create a negative association because that is not cool. ) If it isn't treats, is it balls... frisbee... a chewtoy... Is she a foodie or into toys or what? Treats aren't the only way to create positive associations. P.S. Bella is beeeeeyooooooootiful!

[Ooky]

Thank you. Just a correction. Hope is not declawed, and will not be declawed ever.

 

 

I'm sorry! I mixed you up with one of the other posts. Yay for no declawing! My parents were harping on me last week to get my cat declawed before I have my first baby and I was livid. Great, we'd rather have a tramatized, angry cat who turns to biting as his only recourse? In any case, I also forgot to wish you good luck, and best wishes for a happy dog-cat home!

[pansmom]

I'm sorry! I mixed you up with one of the other posts. Yay for no declawing! My parents were harping on me last week to get my cat declawed before I have my first baby and I was livid. Great, we'd rather have a tramatized, angry cat who turns to biting as his only recourse? In any case, I also forgot to wish you good luck, and best wishes for a happy dog-cat home!

 

This is off subject, but go Ooky! I hope you explained to them what declawing actually is.

 

And to the OP. Glad to hear you don't declaw either.

 

I'll admit I did it once, to my beautiful cat Jupiter when I was about 19, before I really understood the surgery. Looking back on his behavior now, I think it was severely disordered. This was a cat who more than one vet had offered to put to sleep (after which, both times, I changed vets). I'm not terribly knowledgeable about behavior disorders in cats... know a lot more about dogs now... but this cat was very tall and very large (over 14 pounds) and black (which tended to scare people already) and he would basically terrorize our guests, trapping them in bathrooms and standing in their way not letting them get out, staring at them from the table and flexing his claws almost as if he was threatening them, etc. He was like this even as a kitten. He would sometimes let guests pet him for a few minutes and then turn on them and freak out and really attack. He clearly wasn't right. He *never* attacked me, ever - loved me to death and slept curled around my head at night - but when he was about two he attacked a door to door salesman. (I had warned the salesman, "Don't pet the cat," but the salesman, trying to be personable as Jupiter weaved around his legs on the balcony of our apartment, said, "No, he's so beautiful..." and reached down, at which point Jupiter latched onto his arm and started doing death kicks--I had to pull him off). After that and a couple of other incidents with family and friends, my ex-husband convinced me to declaw him. I feel bad for doing it now, knowing what I know now, I'd probably consult a behaviorist and try to change the cat's behavior instead. And maybe try medicating him to help the behavior changes along. But at the time I didn't know any better.

 

I've never declawed a cat since Jupiter though, and never will again. Nyx and Algebar are fully clawed, and they don't try to hurt Vala, their interactions are very controlled as they are not afraid of her, they just pop her on the nose occasionally (clawlessly it seems). And Nyx teases her all the time. She loves to try to get Vala to play.

[geonni banner]

Ugh! Declawing is one of the most barbaric things you can do to a cat. I've seen it done too many times. (Once was too many!) The vet used a regular guillotine type nail-cutter and crunch, right through the toe bone - "so it doesn't grow back." Makes me sick to think of it. And the poor things in recovery, hunched over and drawn in on themselves. So much pain and for what? Nothing you can't do with a nail trim every couple of weeks.

 

And you're right about the biting. I trim my cat's nails regularly, and he never bites, except inhibited play-bites with the dog. He's never offered to bite me, even when he was frightened by something. But declawed cats often turn into biters. Shoot, I'd bite too if someone had hacked off the ends of my fingers.

[pansmom]

And you're right about the biting. I trim my cat's nails regularly, and he never bites, except inhibited play-bites with the dog. He's never offered to bite me, even when he was frightened by something. But declawed cats often turn into biters. Shoot, I'd bite too if someone had hacked off the ends of my fingers.

 

This is true. We can almost tell the declawed cats at the shelter, actually, by their shyness and the way they tend to nip more often. It's very sad.

[Bordercolliemom2294]

It sounds like we need to do more educating of the public. So sad that anyone would do that to their cat, and then wonder why they bite. I am going to ask my vet if they declaw. If they do I will change to a vet who does not. We could all make a bit statement by doing this.

[geonni banner]

It sounds like we need to do more educating of the public. So sad that anyone would do that to their cat, and then wonder why they bite. I am going to ask my vet if they declaw. If they do I will change to a vet who does not. We could all make a bit statement by doing this.

 

If you know anyone who is considering declawing their cat, please download and forward this page to them - or send them the link. It should deter any sensible person.

 

http://maxshouse.com/Truth%20About%20Declawing.htm