Yes, I am really asking this question

[Izzysdad]

Somebody's got to run the show and it's better if the someone is not the dog.

Donald McCaig

 

This is one of the funniest things I've heard in a month. Because it is true, and it just struck me as funny, even though it's a serious comment.

 

I like the idea of using the treat between the legs, I'll for sure try that!

 

Tim

[ejano]

Supposedly she wasn't using it as punishment - he wasn't even doing anything at the time, but she was trying to teach me how to be the leader. And he didn't win - she pulled on large leather gloves as she said "And you watch - he thinks he runs this show so he's going to bite me." I laughed, I think, because I couldn't imagine it happening. But he sure did. She didn't let up and stayed on him until after about 10 minutes he finally relaxed with his head on the ground like the dogs do for Cesar Milan. I let her do it because I didn't see him actually getting hurt, and being new to stockdog training didn't know what to expect. But as she was telling me I needed to do this at least once a day, randomly, I was thinking NO WAY. Then the next time I saw her I asked her not to do it - working very hard on out-of-pen manners in my own way in between (what she had objected to in the first place - he was pulling on the leash and trying to get at the sheep).

 

 

 

My basic feeling too, although I do use physical corrections on rare occasion (scruff shakes). But alpha rolling is not my cup of tea. Odin will let me do whatever I need to, including bathing, brushing, and wound tending, all of which he hates. So, as far as I can see we're good without the roll.

 

I agree the dog and the person are happiest when the person is in charge! It is sad how many people I see at the park who simply aren't in charge, and clearly have no clue how to be. They express amazement when he lays down on command, and then ask me if I trained him myself as if you need a professional to teach this. Then they tell their dog to lay down, he/she doesn't, and they don't enforce (and probably the poor dog doesn't know the command in the first place), and just say, "he's impossible!" while the dog keeps doing whatever it was doing. I thank this board for helping me learn this stuff, and how to do it effectively as he was growing up.

 

I'm sorry -- I wasn't meaning to be critical of you because I know that you are Odin's protector and he is yours... my comments were more rhetorical in nature and a bit grumpy because it is not only raining here its SNOWING!!! and I've got to go teach my lit class tonight.....well, they're promising 80 degrees this weekend, but I'll not believe it until I see it.

 

You also make a good point that sometimes in the beginning instructors tell us to do things that we instinctively feel are wrong but we don't speak up -- or at least I didn't. Now, I do. (Same with first babies, by the way...everyone's got an opinion I'll never forget as a new mother of a fussy, teething baby, my mother in law and aunt took the baby into another room so I could eat lunch and over the fussing I heard one say to the other, "Turn him upside down and stick his foot in his mouth,." I thought, what on earth are they doing to my baby!!!! and darted in there...I realized that they were talking about a little kewpie doll that the baby was trying to chew on. Felt a little silly....but you never know what people will do!)

 

Liz

[juliepoudrier]

I saw this thread this morning while at the vet and was going to post essentially the same thing as Mark did. If you lure down and back (toward the dog's chest/between the front legs) you might have better luck, since the dog would have to shift its weight backward to follow the lure. I've always just been able to lure a pup down from a sitting position, but if the butt came up, I'd probably try luring in a direction that would discourage the butt from moving (as above)....

 

Down on sheep is another thing entirely, and while I expect my pup to give me a down when I ask it off sheep, when he's on sheep, I'm happy if he'll at least pause/stop (he's 8 months old). Insisting on a down will come later, and with some of my dogs I have found they're happier with a standing stop on sheep (or, for example, it just makes sense to use a standing stop with the clappy dog) and that's fine. I'm all for picking one's battles in such a situation (e.g., I have one dog who is quite tense--butting heads with her over a lie down just increases tension and causes problems elsewhere, so I just ask for a stop; maybe later I'll revisit that decision). But those who are allowed a standing stop on sheep still know and respond to a down command off sheep.

 

J.

[Root Beer]

I get cranky when someone equates being the pack leader with an alpha roll (either because they employ it or because they hate those who do).

 

That's something that bothers me, as well. There are as many leadership styles as there are leaders.

 

I've found that the word "leadership" has been colored by it's use in a dominance theory context, but with a little explanation, it's not too hard to convey to people that leadership can be natural and benevolent and remain leadership. Incorporation of dominance theory in training is not a requirement of being a leader, but sometimes I find that I need to make that very clear.

 

I certainly consider myself a leader in my household. My dogs get a lot of say in our lives together because that's how I like it and want it to be. That's part of my leadership style. There is a lot of give and take. Leadership does not have to be a synonym for alpha rolls and force.

 

As far as "down" goes, I don't use it in a dominance sense at all. It's a behavior, like any other. I teach it like I teach anything else.

[eclare]

That's something that bothers me, as well. There are as many leadership styles as there are leaders.

 

I've found that the word "leadership" has been colored by it's use in a dominance theory context, but with a little explanation, it's not too hard to convey to people that leadership can be natural and benevolent and remain leadership. Incorporation of dominance theory in training is not a requirement of being a leader, but sometimes I find that I need to make that very clear.

 

I certainly consider myself a leader in my household. My dogs get a lot of say in our lives together because that's how I like it and want it to be. That's part of my leadership style. There is a lot of give and take. Leadership does not have to be a synonym for alpha rolls and force.

 

As far as "down" goes, I don't use it in a dominance sense at all. It's a behavior, like any other. I teach it like I teach anything else.

 

I definitely agree with this. I admit that I let my dogs get away with a lot of behaviors that many other owners would not. But the key is that I let them. They're allowed on the furniture, but if I tell them it's time to get off, then off they go. I don't feel the need to constantly remind them that they are subordinate to me. Like ejano said, the fact that I control food, water, and fun means I'm in charge, and everyone seems to be pretty OK with that.

[juliepoudrier]

Like ejano said, the fact that I control food, water, and fun means I'm in charge, and everyone seems to be pretty OK with that.

Just don't let dogs develop opposable thumbs or they may find themselves capable of controlling food and water, at least! lol!

 

J.

[ejano]

That's something that bothers me, as well. There are as many leadership styles as there are leaders.

 

I've found that the word "leadership" has been colored by it's use in a dominance theory context, but with a little explanation, it's not too hard to convey to people that leadership can be natural and benevolent and remain leadership. Incorporation of dominance theory in training is not a requirement of being a leader, but sometimes I find that I need to make that very clear.

 

I certainly consider myself a leader in my household. My dogs get a lot of say in our lives together because that's how I like it and want it to be. That's part of my leadership style. There is a lot of give and take. Leadership does not have to be a synonym for alpha rolls and force.

 

As far as "down" goes, I don't use it in a dominance sense at all. It's a behavior, like any other. I teach it like I teach anything else.

 

 

Your notes about leadership embrace one basic concept of leadership that is often overlooked -- in order to be a leader, one must have followers. A despotic ruler has unwilling participants who fall in line because they know to do otherwise means punishment. A good leader with proven capability has willing followers - i.e. this leader knows where to find food!

 

 

And its a matter of latitude as you say Robin yodels when its time to go out, time to go in and time to eat, and pretty much any time he's done anything he considers particularly clever that he'd like to call attention to. I allow it because I enjoy his zest -- it makes me smile. The boys and Ladybug went to the boarding kennel this weekend and because there's usually 5 or 6 dogs in residence, there's no barking allowed there, including Robin's yodeling...when I walked in Robin threw back his head and started to yodel then in mid-note he clammed right up with a look at the kennel operator. I'm sure all she did was give him a voice correction, but he remembered. When we got home, he yodeled in celebration .

[ejano]

Just don't let dogs develop opposable thumbs or they may find themselves capable of controlling food and water, at least! lol!

 

J.

 

 

Sometimes I think that Border Collies don't even need the opposable thumbs .

[Ooky]

Dear Doggers,

I get cranky when someone equates being the pack leader with an alpha roll (either because they employ it or because they hate those who do). It's irrelevant folks! In more than 25 years I have never done it and touch my dogs rarely - probably too rarely.

 

People who equate pack leadership with the alpha roll would argue that policemen don't have authority unless they draw their gun. Phooey.

 

Donald McCaig

 

Couldn't have said it better! As I was watching it I was thinking "this makes NO sense". Like I said though, we worked it out and now she would never do that to him, even if she wanted to, and has become really gentle with him, which he usually deserves (he really wants to be right!)

 

Ejano - no offense taken!

[stockdogranch]

Like Jodi, I've always used the "leash as pulley under my foot" technique (while using the verbal "lie down" in a VERY soft, quiet voice--barely above a whisper). I start the pup at 10 weeks with this one--maybe 3 or 4 times in a few minutes. Then we leave it alone for the day. A day or two later, I do it again, although for 99.9% of pups, all I have to do is say the verbal, and down the pup goes. Done deal. I do not consider it "forcing," and it takes so much less time and energy than all the luring, etc. techniques. I agree with Donald that one reason they learn it so quickly is that by that time, they already see me as their pack leader, and are eager to do what I ask. And, no, I don't beat my dogs or abuse them in any way

A

[Dixie_Girl]

Here's the thing. If a dog knows what you want, but doesn't do it when you ask, what do you do? I taught my dogs lie down with the lead under foot and just waited until the whole body went down, then released. After a few times of this, I would ask for a lie down, ONCE, and then do the lead if not given. I have never understood the concept of repeated "asking".

[Ooky]

I do not consider it "forcing," and it takes so much less time and energy than all the luring, etc. techniques.

 

Not necessarily - like I said at 11 weeks Odin learned in one 5-minute luring, C/T session and has stayed solid on the command for life (we've "practiced" it a lot like all of his commands, but it's a command he's never got wrong after that very first session). As MArk and Julie mentioned I did slide the treat almost under his chest so he laid back on his haunches, not lowering his head with butt up.

 

But I don't think the heel-pulley sounds like a bad method at all, and if I had a pup who was having a hard time with luring, it'd be the next thing I tried - to me that sounds not like "forcing" per se but pressure -release, which I also like to use in training.

[Shetlander]

Here's the thing. If a dog knows what you want, but doesn't do it when you ask, what do you do? I taught my dogs lie down with the lead under foot and just waited until the whole body went down, then released. After a few times of this, I would ask for a lie down, ONCE, and then do the lead if not given. I have never understood the concept of repeated "asking".

 

I just look at it as training and figure out what I can do differently. My dog may "know" what I want but for some reason he doesn't want to do it. Maybe you've never had a dog who struggled with one command or the other. Most of my dogs have had one or two they didn't much care for and it took more for them to learn and obey reliably. With the down, a submissive position, the last thing I want to do is get into a power struggle. Especially if the dog doesn't like down because it makes him feel vulnerable or unsafe, I want to make learning the behavior rewarding not an ordeal. The dog I trained 25 years ago fought the pulley method for a week and when I stupidly over-corrected (I was young and believed the instructor ), it turned into a massive power struggle which I "won" but both of us were unhappy. It wasn't a bonding moment and it wasn't a way to build trust.

 

But really, I don't put a ton of thought into why a dog won't do something. I just try to figure out how to get the behavior and then make the behavior a habit.

 

Now of my current dogs, only the Lhasa is likely to have had a problem with the pulley method. And the harsh correction of that long ago class would have put him over the edge. One of his obedience instructors commented that because he was so tough physically and emotionally, punishment is a confusing concept for him. And this wasn't a touchy-feeling instructor. But happily Chili learned "down" as soon as I brought him home and all he was thinking about was the game we were playing so he could earn treats. The little tough guy had nothing to fight with me about when it came to lying down -- there at least.

[Ooky]

^^ Very well said, Liz.

 

In my new job managing people, as well as in the classroom (when I used to teach), I've learned that an effective leader will utilize a variety of methods and will select those that works best with a particular person, as well as with your own personality/experience/preferences as the leader. It does not surprise me that it would be the same with dogs.

 

As for what do you do if your dog doesn't do what you ask, well, if the random sampling of public I see is any guide, you ask ineffectually a few more times, and then totally give up and blame the dog's stubborn personality.

[Root Beer]

Just don't let dogs develop opposable thumbs or they may find themselves capable of controlling food and water, at least! lol!

 

J.

 

Hmmmmmmm . . . that might not be so bad! Maybe then they will go to work and I can spend my days napping in the cushy house while they provide me with everything I need in life!!

[Root Beer]

Not necessarily - like I said at 11 weeks Odin learned in one 5-minute luring, C/T session and has stayed solid on the command for life

 

Using the technique that I described earlier in this thread, Dean learned a solid down in minutes. It was almost instantaneous and it is still one of his most reliable behaviors, and it has generalized to different situations very well.