mike miller Posted October 18, 2002 Report Share Posted October 18, 2002 I have a six mth.old female bc that has experience some sheep have not started really she is to young yet,but anyway how is the best way to teach her sides.thanks for the info Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest PairDogx1.5 Posted October 22, 2002 Report Share Posted October 22, 2002 I wouldn't presume to be qualified to answer you, but I see your question has been dangling a few days, so I'll tell you what I've heard. Most times I've seen people comment on this, they seem to agree that flanking should be taught on stock, as well as most of the training you will do. It depends on who you ask, but many say the only things you need SOLID before going to stock are 1)-- Come when called, no matter what, ALL THE TIME; and 2)-- a good "Lie Down" and maybe a "Stay". Terminology sometimes varies. BTW, the lie down should be "lie down where they are", not slink over to you and lie down, like my dog wants to do, even though she's been doing a great classic lie-down-poised since the day I got her -- when she's NOT told to. I have to say that I'm having better luck with the "lie down where you are" when she's on stock. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest PrairieFire Posted October 23, 2002 Report Share Posted October 23, 2002 Hey Mike, all the foofaraw over in politics obviously distracted everyone...I'll tell you how I start sides... I used to just use the big field and an older dog to hold the sheep, but last fall I built a "training pen" that is about 150' X 250' with rounded corners, so I've been using that - enough room for the dogs to get off the stock, and I don't need another dog to help... The first step, before "teaching" flanks, is to get the dog circling the stock - AND BALANCING OFF TO YOU - in other words, as you move around the outside of the stock, the dog should flank, on it's own, to "hold" the stock to you - I'm assuming you're somewhat familiar with this process...this should also include your going through the stock to "meet" the dog, and it flanking - quickly and without commands - correctly around to hold the sheep... I do all of this without commands, just letting the dog work natural. I will, if the dog is wrong - not covering, continuing to circle, dashing in and gripping - give corrections, using body language and with whatever severity I guage is needed... After the dog knows this stuff, I then use body language and movement to get the dog to change directions. This is also when I start introducing wearing - and we leave the pen and walk and walk and walk. This usually takes corrections and reminders not to push the sheep over the top of me...duh... Under these circumstances is when I introduce voice commands - although I think on the pups I'm bringing up now I might try whistle commands right off the bat - "telling" the dog to do something it is already doing naturally. After I think things are going well that way, then I reduce body language and movement and continue the commands, eventually getting to the point where I want the dog to flank even if I'm standing with my hands in my pockets... Does any of that make sense? ------------------ Bill Gary Kensmuir, Working Stockdog Center River Falls, WI 715.426.9877 www.kensmuir.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Olivia Posted October 23, 2002 Report Share Posted October 23, 2002 Thanks Bill, I am trying to work with my dog on her flanks and it is frying my brain. Sometimes when I ask her for a flank she will take it no problem. Then when we are at a pen or gate she will try her best to hold those sheep to me. If I try to flank her she just freezes up. She will move if I wave my stick at her to force her to move the way I asked but once she stops she freezes again. I guess what I have noticed is that while she is moving, flanking is not so hard. However, when she stops it is hard to get her going again in what she perceives to be the wrong direction. Oh yeah, our pen at our first trial was because with a familiar pen she knows that I want the sheep in there and does it without needing my directions. It is just with strange pens, gates, etc that we have issues. What do you think? Olivia Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Fosher Posted October 23, 2002 Report Share Posted October 23, 2002 Don't even think about teaching sides until the dog is working well and has a sense of balance and stock movement. Then it's simply a matter of watching which way the dog wants to go, and issuing the command for that direction. Gradually you add pressure to get the dog to flank off balance. ------------------ Bill Fosher Surry, NH Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest PrairieFire Posted October 23, 2002 Report Share Posted October 23, 2002 Let's see, BIll F. said what I tried to say, in several paragraphs, in two sentences... And there's the difference in our two backgrounds - me being raised in coastal South Carolina and Bill F. in the NE... My daddy once told me, "You'd rather climb a tree and tell a story than stand on the ground and tell the truth." I'll let the southerners define "story" in the prime dialect of Will Faulkner... Olivia, my first thought is "eye"...I've gotta get out and feed sheep, I'll pass on my (lack of) wisdom in the morning and maybe someone else can help out before that... ------------------ Bill Gary Kensmuir, Working Stockdog Center River Falls, WI 715.426.9877 www.kensmuir.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Fosher Posted October 23, 2002 Report Share Posted October 23, 2002 If I were a polite southerner, I probably would have read your answer before I posted mine and seen that you had already done a perfectly adequate job of laying out the method. Olivia, I would add this to Bill's thought about eye. The dog is probably too close to flank correctly, and doesn't dare flank at all for fear of upsetting the sheep. This can sometimes look like a sticky eye (and can be caused by a sticky eye) so it may be a distinction without a difference. Set up the situation in a corner or such. Get her to stick, walk through the sheep and take her back a few yards and shoosh her and see what happens. [This message has been edited by Bill Fosher (edited 10-23-2002).] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest PrairieFire Posted October 24, 2002 Report Share Posted October 24, 2002 Nice points, Bill... Also with a "sticky" dog - I think sometimes that term is used too loosely, the dog has a lot of eye and incorrect handling makes it "sticky" - working the dog on it's feet and a distance off can help... I also think, as Bill F. has pointed out, that it can be a "confidence" issue - which is where giving the dog some space to cover, focus on the entire flock, etc. can be a help... So I'd also try "distancing" and keeping the dog back, as well as keeping the dog on it's feet as much as possible...? Oh, and Bill, I said southerner - I didn't say "polite"... ------------------ Bill Gary Kensmuir, Working Stockdog Center River Falls, WI 715.426.9877 www.kensmuir.com [This message has been edited by PrairieFire (edited 10-24-2002).] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Olivia Posted October 24, 2002 Report Share Posted October 24, 2002 Thanks Bill and Bill from a very southern girl raised in the mountains of Alabama. I guess you've heard the one about being able to talk the ears off a cornstalk? Yeah, that's me when it comes to my dog. Maybe it's a southern thing. I think it is just extreme fear that any move will cause her to lose the sheep. If I walk to her and ssshhhh her she will go around and bring to me. She has wonderful natural balance and works well off. I guess I just get frustrated when she seems to know what I am asking for sometimes but other times she ignores me completely. I will keep working on it, keeping her on her feet and trying not to let her get stuck. Thanks again, Olivia Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amy Posted October 24, 2002 Report Share Posted October 24, 2002 Olivia, As someone with a dog that has alot of eye..I second the keep them up on their feet. Another thing you might try is to quietly say her name when she gets stuck. With mine that name softly spoken will break the "trance" and free things up again. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mike miller Posted October 25, 2002 Author Report Share Posted October 25, 2002 thanks alot for all the info.from north dokota. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mike miller Posted October 25, 2002 Author Report Share Posted October 25, 2002 thanks alot for all the info.from north dakota Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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