from puppy to T-Rex?

[sea4th]

Here's the situation. This pup is not mine, but I still have a vested interest--I bred her. She is 8 months old and her owner's first BC. The owner has done well enough with an alternate herding breed in AKC.

 

She started the pup at 5 months, which I thought, and told her it was too young, that the pup's got to grow up. She was told by some other folks that as long as the pup is showing a desire to work, work her, and she did. The pup has always been keen.

 

Now, approaching adolescence, the pup either goes to the heads, or just plain dives in and buzzes the sheep, and has times where she does a beautiful job.

 

Today my friend e-mailed me that during a lesson today, she and the instructor, had the sheep in a corner, blocking the dog from diving in an buzzing them. The dog has gotten into the habit of grabbing the crook in frustration when it's used to block her.

Today, she not only grabbed the crook but she buzzed my friend's leg too. At that point the instructor bopped the dog on the head with the crook. Puppy went over to the side to sulk, thought about it and came back and did a beautiful job.

 

One thing about this litter, I watched them as pups get corrected (by humans & dogs), get bowled over, only to roll back up on their legs in one movement and continue. So they were tough & determined from the get go.

 

Are we dealing with an adolescent mind set here, are we dealing with a dog that was started too early, a frustrated dog, or a dog that might benefit from a more experienced trainer?

 

My friend tells me she is more aggressive each time she takes her out. Of course, my friend is not used to a dog that lives for this either, so "aggression" might just be her interpretation.

 

Off stock, pup is as sweet as she can be.

 

Open to interpretations and suggestions.

 

Thanks.

 

Vicki

[Guest PrairieFire]

SOunds to me like you're dealing with a dog that is pleasing herself...and the cleaning up of her behavior after the bonk would seem to correspond with that...

 

Read Bruce Fogt's book about the correction ladder - sounds like the dog is quite a ways up that ladder and needs to learn some proper behaviour...

 

Sounds like an intense dog that is simply having too much fun beating her handler...

 

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Bill Gary

Kensmuir, Working Stockdog Center

River Falls, WI

715.426.9877

www.kensmuir.com

[Bill Fosher]

Bill may be right, but diving and buzzing can also be symptoms of a lack of confidence. If it were my dog, I'd consider putting it up for a month or two, and then returning to training with a different attitude -- let's make this fun.

 

The last thing I would do is crowd sheep up in a corner to teach the dog not to buzz them. Sounds like the instructor is simply trying to teach the dog by frustrating it (which I'm sure is not the intention, but it is the effect).

 

I'd get it out in the open on a larger group of sheep (15 or more) and set up situations where the dog had to think, and where the consequence of buzzing the sheep or diving wasn't just a correction, but also the loss of the stock.

 

Overall, it sounds to me as if the dog was started too young and is being pushed too hard too soon. It needs time to grow up. The fact that it will respond to a correction is a very good sign -- I believe this dog will come right given time and proper training.

 

I'd be concerned, however, that in a rush to get the dog titled or whatever, the owner and trainer might very well create a dog that has to be fought the whole time it's around stock.

 

Bottom line: three suggestions. 1.) be patient. 2.) lower the training pressure. 3.) make sure the corrections are effective.

 

 

 

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Bill Fosher

Surry, NH

[ikw]

4th suggestion. Or it would be my course of action,take/reclaim the pup back.

 

Vicki,8 months old pup and I don't care how talented or keen it is, still a puppy.

There are so few people in this world who could actually get the pup into working mode at that age,unfortunately they live in UK,more like in Wales.

 

>>>One thing about this litter, I watched them as pups get corrected (by humans & dogs), get bowled over, only to roll back up on their legs in one movement and continue. So they were tough & determined from the get go.<<

 

Breeding glitch,perhaps? You have to research and see if the "toughness" comes from the sire or the dam and try to avoid repeating the breed or choosing a match who's willing to accept humans and dogs.

 

 

 

 

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Inci Willard

Clearville,PA

814-784-3414

ikw@pennswoods.net

[Guest PrairieFire]

Yep, I missed the 8 month old thing - I second the putting her up part - the dog is simply too young to need that level of correction ALL THE TIME...and the corner was extremely wrong for a young pup - too high a pressure level as Bill F. says...

 

Sorry about missing the age thing - that can make a ton of difference - if the dog requires that high a level of correction at that age - put her up and start over next spring. With a normal amount of pressure.

 

What's the hurry? At this age, training should be fun - not a whole lot of pressure - as Inci points out - either the breeding is too "tough" or the dog is under WAY too much pressure, a pup savaging sheep should be an exception if it is being "trained to it's age"...the pups I've worked at that age learn from a short series of corrections that savaging isn't ok - if it takes more than that they should be given some more time to mature...

 

And then if they keep savaging when they get older, make a decision about how high you want to go up the correction ladder.

 

 

------------------

Bill Gary

Kensmuir, Working Stockdog Center

River Falls, WI

715.426.9877

www.kensmuir.com

 

 

 

[This message has been edited by PrairieFire (edited 09-28-2002).]

[Guest newguy]

Where do I sign up to get one of those puppies?

I like a keen dog at a young age.

Thad

[sea4th]

Thank you so much for your input.

 

First, pups get this from their old man, I'm sure. I was looking for something that would put a little push into the pups, more than mom has.

 

Secondly, I was wrong on one thing---this pup has been working since she was 4 months old---way too young, and I have stated this to the owner, but she is coming from working with an AKC breed ---- OK, it's a rough collie, and I can imagine the feeling my friend had when her BC pup was doing at 7 months, what it took the collie 18 months to learn. (but I know that's no reason to apply training on a dog that is still a baby in my eyes, but a wannabe big guy).

 

Her advice has been coming from someone who is quite successful as an all breed herding person, and someone I never heard of who is giving herding lessons. Both told her, if your dog wants to work, work her. Not that I'm a great handler, I'm a total klutz, but one thing I have learned, is that these guys go through so many developmental stages, that they have to mentally mature.

 

I scenario I described above, to me was too confrontational. There were no loud voices, just a quiet "come bye", allowing the dog to make her own choice. There was no crook slapping, but I feel that the body language, of the 2 humans blocking the sheep, who are in a corner, was more than this pup's immature mind could take, so her attitude was "get out of my way!". I too feel she should be taken up and allowed to rest.

 

Yesterday, we were with an experienced BC person, and my friend asked to see what she could do with the dog. The dog went on a long line and was made to walk quietly close to the handler, and she actually looked nice.

 

Take her back? In a heartbeat, but I really do think my friend will eventually do right by her. A first BC is quite a learning experience.

 

On the other hand, I am puppy sitting one of the other bitch pups, and boy, and I am seriously thinking of reclaiming her. I KNOW she's too much for them.

 

I will share your responses with my friend.

 

Thank you again.

 

Vicki