Border Collie Structure

[Flamincomet]

Can someone who is a member of that forum reply with the following 3 words:

 

FORM FOLLOWS FUNCTION

 

I've said that several times. It doesn't even enter their ears to go out the other side, just goes clean over.

 

Autumn

[geonni banner]

When I look at those photos, I tend to look for something that says NOT a border collie. If I don't see something inconsistent with all the varied border collie looks I've ever seen, I'll say that the dog could very well be a border collie. It's very rare that I feel I can tell more than that from a photo.

 

Don't know if that's how other people do it . . .

 

That's interesting... I was thinking this over after I made that post, and I remembered my first reaction to a picture of my dog on the internet rescue page. She was described as a Border Collie mix. I thought, "OK. But mixed with what? I can't see anything besides Border Collie." This was the picture(s) (Formatting and text added by me)

Later when I went to get her and brought her home - she was much older than the pictures on the webpage - she looked like this:

I was still trying to figure out what she could be mixed with - and was at that time only acquainted with conformation-type Border Collies. I was stymied - until I stumbled onto the BC Boards. Then a light went on... The reason I couldn't see anything but Border Collie was because she probably isn't a mix!

[ShoresDog]

http://www.showdog.com/login/philboard_read.aspx?id=202010

 

Here is the thread in question.

 

Six pages!! I can't imagine actually reading it all since there is no reason for the whole concept of border collie conformation types to even exist. There is nothing to argue there, folks! There's no there, there.

 

If there were an argument about border collie working styles and how/when/where different working styles arose, now that would be interesting.

[geonni banner]

Six pages!! I can't imagine actually reading it all since there is no reason for the whole concept of border collie conformation types to even exist. There is nothing to argue there, folks! There's no there, there.

 

If there were an argument about border collie working styles and how/when/where different working styles arose, now that would be interesting.

 

True. Very true. But there was a link to a page about Salukis that was really interesting. About the whole "form follows function" thing.

[Conner22]

Haha- so funny. After I read the post about "Kate" I had to respond! I don't know HOW she is getting her show titles, except maybe the "typical" show dog isn't common in her area. In the eastern area of US, judges look for the australian types (alot of coat). They would rather place a dog that looks show typey over a dog that is of good conformation. The ears HAVE to be set like australian show lines. Judges have been overhears saying "are red (or merle) dogs even ALLOWED?" or "Those ears aren't proper!" HAHAHAHA!!!!!!! SAD tho!

[SS Cressa]

True. Very true. But there was a link to a page about Salukis that was really interesting. About the whole "form follows function" thing.

 

Thanks I love that link too! Someone here posted it awhile ago and I save the link since it applies to so much more then just Salukis.

 

Normally I try NOT to get involve when its over people beliefs. But I got annoyed when someone posted the working border collie is an embarrassment to the breed and how horrible they are?! Excuse me!!!

 

And that whole form follow function... I've said it along with a handful of other people and they don't hear it. I am not sure how else to say ITS NOT ABOUT LOOKS BUT ABILITY. According to them the working border collie a mutt. I am not sure why they doesn't think border collie have a uniformal look. For the most part I can tell a border collie when I see one there is just something about them maybe how they hold themselves that scream border collie. LOL The only border collie that would give me a run for the money would be Stella. **Evil grin** I would hate for them to see her and be told she is 100% BORDER COLLIE.

 

Anyways I hope its alright I use that pix that Eileen Stein posted on that forum. If not I can remove it.

[mum24dog]

Anyways I hope its alright I use that pix that Eileen Stein posted on that forum. If not I can remove it.

 

Post pics of Wales and give the ignorant ****** who thinks it's flat a geography lesson.

 

Pam

[kelpiegirl]

SS Cressa, et al

 

Just do yourself a favor, and don't enter chat rooms like that, and for goodness sake, rely on your own experiences/education to keep you in good stead. Remember my sig line...

[juliepoudrier]

I have to agree with Julie after reading that thread. It's the same old tired arguments that the KC folks have always used. The people who say they are working their KC registered dogs are probably the same as the ones here: working bred and dual registered. To the ones who say they live there and *know* what the dogs look like, you can't have a logical argument, and that's the whole reason for those types of statements in the first place--they are unarguable. I think it's fairly safe to say that the working sheepdogs and show border collies are as different/divided in the UK as they are here, but the folks who wish to believe otherwise will never be swayed. You're just wasting your time.

 

J.

[border_collie_crazy]

yup there is a reason I dont much get involved in threads over there anymore! the only reason I posted at all(regarding Turnbulls Blue) was because Loup found it so appaling and I felt like annoying her lol she drives me batty sometimes!

 

BTW am I the only one that cant find the thread without clicking the link Autumn posted? I went to look for the thread yesterday and it had gone poof..today its still seems to have gone Poof, yet people are still posting to it? where did it go? lol

[jdarling]

SS Cressa, do you show in conformation?

[Smokjbc]

yup there is a reason I dont much get involved in threads over there anymore! the only reason I posted at all(regarding Turnbulls Blue) was because Loup found it so appaling and I felt like annoying her lol she drives me batty sometimes!

 

BTW am I the only one that cant find the thread without clicking the link Autumn posted? I went to look for the thread yesterday and it had gone poof..today its still seems to have gone Poof, yet people are still posting to it? where did it go? lol

 

 

I read through the thread late last night. I thought the pro-working points were mostly made quite well. The Loup chararacter, who was horrified that anyone would considering breeding against "purity", was being willingingly ignorant. I always find the "purity" angle hilarious; coming from folks who think they are preserving the orginal breed, and they don't bother to understand that "purity" has only been that big of deal since the beginning of the century. Just about the same time that functional breeds started to become useless. With the exception of a few monastaries or Imperial courts, most dogs were bred according to what they could do. You would think that with all the bad press regarding purebred KC dogs, that some of the heavily-entrenched KC people would at least start questioning that attitude of "purity". I think they just have too much invested in the fallacy.

[Conner22]

I think they took that thread down maybe too offencive to the show people.

[SS Cressa]

yup there is a reason I dont much get involved in threads over there anymore! the only reason I posted at all(regarding Turnbulls Blue) was because Loup found it so appaling and I felt like annoying her lol she drives me batty sometimes!

 

BTW am I the only one that cant find the thread without clicking the link Autumn posted? I went to look for the thread yesterday and it had gone poof..today its still seems to have gone Poof, yet people are still posting to it? where did it go? lol

 

I can only fine it since I had already posted on the topic. I can't fine it on the forum either. I PM the Moderator asking about it. I felt a little bad the thread was interesting till the border collies took over. It was interesting to see the different style of dogs.

 

JD: As to conformation that is a topic best left to the Politics section on these boards or PM's

[jdarling]

JD: As to conformation that is a topic best left to the Politics section on these boards or PM's

 

Huh? I thought it was a "yes" or "no" question. The reason I was asking is because a) I didn't want to be guilty of accusing you of anything that wasn't true, and (that was supposed to be the letter "B" with a parenthesis around it) I think I recall you saying you show in conformation, and if that's the case, I don't understand your point in this thread. It almost seems like you're playing both sides against the middle.

 

JMNSHO, I guess.

[SS Cressa]

Huh? I thought it was a "yes" or "no" question. The reason I was asking is because a) I didn't want to be guilty of accusing you of anything that wasn't true, and I think I recall you saying you show in conformation, and if that's the case, I don't understand your point in this thread. It almost seems like you're playing both sides against the middle.

 

JMNSHO, I guess.

 

Do I show in conformation? No.

DO I want to? yes. What breed? I don't know. At one time I thought you could get a good working dog and a show dog but from experience that isn't going to happen. They prefer the corgie-aussie mixes then a border collie. What breed will I eventually show? I don't know. I thought all of this has been cover before on different topics on here.

 

Does that answer your question? and Yes I compete in AKC agility and possible Obedience and Rally err I shouldn't say I my dogs are the ones doing the hard part in figuring out what I want with any sucess. *Thank doG Cress can read her course map! Troy is still learning how to count. It hard when you only have 4 toes on each paw.

[geonni banner]

While most conformation breeders are really obsessed with type, and out crossing is anathema to them, (witness their response to Turnbull Blue) there are exceptions. I heard awhile back of a radical move by people working within the Basenji breed to correct a hereditary problem within their breed.

 

"Initially dubbed Congo Terriers by western explorers, the first Basenjis brought back to England succumbed to distemper after their arrival. The first survivors, Bokoto and Bongo, aroused such interest in 1937 as exhibits at Crufts dog show, that security barriers were erected to keep the crowd moving past them. Basenjis reached the United States soon afterwards, and were AKC-recognized in 1943.

They didn’t arrive in droves, however. Until recently, AKC basenjis could be traced back to 12 foundation dogs, and about 90 percent of them could be traced back to only three. Such limited gene pools can cause health problems in any breed, and this breed was no exception. One of those founders probably carried a gene for a disorder called Fanconi syndrome, and by the 1980s, the resulting renal failure was widespread in the breed.

Most breeds in that situation have no place to turn; but Basenjis had an untapped source of new blood among the native tribes of southern Sudan, the eastern central African Republic, and the Congo regions. In 1987, Basenji breeders Michael Work and Jon Curby (the later currently the BCA delegate to theAKC) traveled to Africa in search of indigenous stock. They drove 800 miles through the Azande region of Sudan, stopping to ask about dogs or puppies. “The dogs’ daily life was pretty relaxed,” recalls Curby. “I'm sure they did some hunting, but for the most part they hung out around their owners’ property. The dogs were not confined at all. Basenjis are the only breed of dog in that part of Africa and planning of matings was never an issue.”

The breeders were able to buy 13 puppies on that and a subsequent trip — four brindles, four tri-colors, and five red and whites. “Adults were very difficult to buy,” says Curby. “We bought only one adult — a bitch that was in whelp. The Azande are just as attached to their dogs as we are [to ours]. We tried to buy another adult bitch and offered her owner more money than he would likely ever see, and he refused. The village chief could not convince him.”

The brindle pattern was not found outside of Africa at that time, nor was it recognized by the AKC standard. How to integrate these non-registered unpedigreed dogs into the AKC gene pool? The Basenji Club of America supported their registration, and in an unusual move, the AKC agreed. The standard was changed to recognize brindle. Breeders from around the world welcomed the new genes, which have so far proved free of Fanconi. “The imports were not enough in number to have a drastic effect on the gene pool to this point, but they have added options for breeders to add specific attributes to their programs that might not have been readily available earlier, says Curby. Incorporating the native dogs has not compromised quality — just the opposite. The top lure coursing Basenji for the past few years, and the top show Basenji (in fact, the top hound in 1997), have something in common: they both wear the brindle badge of recent African ancestry."

 

To read the rest of the story, go here:

 

http://www.basenjirescue.org/BRAT_Info/DogWorld.htm

[jdarling]

DO I want to? yes. What breed? I don't know.

 

Do you agree with showing Border Collies in conformation? If so, why? If not, why not?

[SS Cressa]

Do you agree with showing Border Collies in conformation? If so, why? If not, why not?

 

Am trying to figure how to express my thoughts.

 

I disagree with breeding border collies for looks rather then ability. Maybe its has to do with my love for agility or Cress i don't know. The Aussie show border collies I have seen in agility have one of the slowest time and are painful to watch. The generic show border collies I have seen (on youtube) "herding" (I use herding since most don't work like any working border collie I have seen (on youtube)) are embarrassing to watch. They seem to lack the control and intencity(sp?) that border collie have maybe it just because of a different handler or trainer or genes or something else. I don't know.

 

The crosses(show/sport or show/working) are a hit or miss or mediocre in agility. Most don't have what I am looking for.

 

Can they do conformation I don't see why not. Its when you just start breeding for conformation/looks that a whole lot of problems arise. That when they just don't seem like border collies and start becoming a different breed.

 

Does that make sense?

[geonni banner]

"Can they do conformation I don't see why not. Its when you just start breeding for conformation/looks that a whole lot of problems arise. That when they just don't seem like border collies and start becoming a different breed.

 

Does that make sense?"

SS Cressa

 

I guess I don't see anything wrong with buffing and fluffing a proven working Border Collie and walking into a conformation ring. Except...

 

Is there a venue for conformation Border Collies other than AKC or the KC?

 

I wouldn't want to support the AKC or any conformation-based organization with my entry fees - or seem to give my tacit approval to conformation breeding by showing up in the breed ring. I guess if I went to a stock dog trial and they had a "Who's-the-purtyest-dog-here-today?" fund-raising contest, I would enter... but I'd place the likelihood of that happening at about zip point nothing...

[juliepoudrier]

I guess if I went to a stock dog trial and they had a "Who's-the-purtyest-dog-here-today?" fund-raising contest, I would enter... but I'd place the likelihood of that happening at about zip point nothing...

Well, they actually used to have just such a class as part of some of the first sheepdog trials in the UK. Word is that it was to encourage farmers/shepherds to keep their dogs up (i.e., grooming) more than anything else.

 

J.

[Jumpin Boots]

Am trying to figure how to express my thoughts.

 

I disagree with breeding border collies for looks rather then ability. Maybe its has to do with my love for agility or Cress i don't know. The Aussie show border collies I have seen in agility have one of the slowest time and are painful to watch. The generic show border collies I have seen (on youtube) "herding" (I use herding since most don't work like any working border collie I have seen (on youtube)) are embarrassing to watch. They seem to lack the control and intencity(sp?) that border collie have maybe it just because of a different handler or trainer or genes or something else. I don't know.

 

The crosses(show/sport or show/working) are a hit or miss or mediocre in agility. Most don't have what I am looking for.

 

Can they do conformation I don't see why not. Its when you just start breeding for conformation/looks that a whole lot of problems arise. That when they just don't seem like border collies and start becoming a different breed.

 

Does that make sense?

 

For me, your above statement doesn't make sense, I don't mean in the wording, but the theory (or atleast I think your theory) behind it.

 

If I'm understanding you correctly, you feel like working bred dogs ought to also be used in conformation rings and judged against one another to determine who has the better physical form? Correct?

 

For me, looking at working border collies there are so many different body styles that produce great working ability it seems like a pointless comparison to try to judge who has the better conformation. The dogs are to prove themselves out on the stock, not against each other.

 

It seems to me that you are trying to bring two worlds together, because you enjoy both of them, that in their existence clash in almost every sense.

 

I don't believe that there is any way to take an animal into a confirmation ring and not end up, over time, having a bunch of animals who look similar, which is what has already been done. When you bring competition into any field, then many people strive to be #1, if they see the next dog over always placing ahead of them, then they are going to try to make their dog have the same yet better characteristics than dog #1. This is what the akc has already done to plenty of breeds, including the poor 'barbie' collie.

 

I think this is one area where there really isn't much compromise, one can't always have their cake and eat it too.

Just my thoughts...although reading back maybe I'm the one not making sense

[jdarling]

Does that make sense?

 

Not really, but let's go with it for a minute. You never answered the question I asked you. Let's try this.

 

Would you participate in conformation showing of Border Collies if only the dogs from working lines participated?

[Eileen Stein]

Can they do conformation I don't see why not. Its when you just start breeding for conformation/looks that a whole lot of problems arise. That when they just don't seem like border collies and start becoming a different breed.

 

Does that make sense?

 

The whole point of conformation showing is to select breeding stock. The dogs are judged on how well they conform to the appearance standard for their breed as interpreted by the judges, and you are supposed to use the ones that conform the best for breeding. That's why spayed and neutered dogs are not allowed to be shown in the breed ring -- it would be pointless, because you can't breed them. So to participate in the conformation system for selecting breeding stock without breeding for conformation would not really make sense.

 

The second way it doesn't make sense is that most people who engage in a competitive endeavor try to excel at it. They want to win, or at least do the best they can at it. That's why sheepdog folks who trial competitively breed for working ability and train their dogs to the best of their ability. That makes sense, because both breeding and training are very important to do well in sheepdog trialing. That's why conformation folks don't just powder and trim, they breed for the look that will win, because both breeding and grooming are very important to do well in conformation showing. Just as it wouldn't make sense to show in conformation with your dog unbathed, uncombed and with long ragged nails, so too it doesn't make sense to show in conformation without a dog bred (either by you or by the breeder you bought from) with an eye to the conformation standard. And I don't think people DO go down that path without pretty soon breeding for conformation (or choosing dogs bred for conformation), even if they didn't start out that way. After all, the system gives you positive reinforcement for doing so, and positive punishment for not doing so. Hence its power to destroy breeds.

[ejano]

While most conformation breeders are really obsessed with type, and out crossing is anathema to them, (witness their response to Turnbull Blue) there are exceptions. I heard awhile back of a radical move by people working within the Basenji breed to correct a hereditary problem within their breed.

 

"Initially dubbed Congo Terriers by western explorers, the first Basenjis brought back to England succumbed to distemper after their arrival. The first survivors, Bokoto and Bongo, aroused such interest in 1937 as exhibits at Crufts dog show, that security barriers were erected to keep the crowd moving past them. Basenjis reached the United States soon afterwards, and were AKC-recognized in 1943.

They didn’t arrive in droves, however. Until recently, AKC basenjis could be traced back to 12 foundation dogs, and about 90 percent of them could be traced back to only three. Such limited gene pools can cause health problems in any breed, and this breed was no exception. One of those founders probably carried a gene for a disorder called Fanconi syndrome, and by the 1980s, the resulting renal failure was widespread in the breed.

Most breeds in that situation have no place to turn; but Basenjis had an untapped source of new blood among the native tribes of southern Sudan, the eastern central African Republic, and the Congo regions. In 1987, Basenji breeders Michael Work and Jon Curby (the later currently the BCA delegate to theAKC) traveled to Africa in search of indigenous stock. They drove 800 miles through the Azande region of Sudan, stopping to ask about dogs or puppies. “The dogs’ daily life was pretty relaxed,” recalls Curby. “I'm sure they did some hunting, but for the most part they hung out around their owners’ property. The dogs were not confined at all. Basenjis are the only breed of dog in that part of Africa and planning of matings was never an issue.”

The breeders were able to buy 13 puppies on that and a subsequent trip — four brindles, four tri-colors, and five red and whites. “Adults were very difficult to buy,” says Curby. “We bought only one adult — a bitch that was in whelp. The Azande are just as attached to their dogs as we are [to ours]. We tried to buy another adult bitch and offered her owner more money than he would likely ever see, and he refused. The village chief could not convince him.”

The brindle pattern was not found outside of Africa at that time, nor was it recognized by the AKC standard. How to integrate these non-registered unpedigreed dogs into the AKC gene pool? The Basenji Club of America supported their registration, and in an unusual move, the AKC agreed. The standard was changed to recognize brindle. Breeders from around the world welcomed the new genes, which have so far proved free of Fanconi. “The imports were not enough in number to have a drastic effect on the gene pool to this point, but they have added options for breeders to add specific attributes to their programs that might not have been readily available earlier, says Curby. Incorporating the native dogs has not compromised quality — just the opposite. The top lure coursing Basenji for the past few years, and the top show Basenji (in fact, the top hound in 1997), have something in common: they both wear the brindle badge of recent African ancestry."

 

To read the rest of the story, go here:

 

http://www.basenjirescue.org/BRAT_Info/DogWorld.htm

 

Geonni,

your information makes a good case in point about closed books for any kind of breeding stock, whatever the animal. There has to be a large gene pool in order to maintain a sound, healthy, and well put together dog (because physical appearance/soundness is part of doing the job for which the dog was intended).