Thor Posted September 8, 2002 Report Share Posted September 8, 2002 I am not planing to start my dog soon. But I am curious. how do you people start a young dog. What do you look for? What kind of things do you correct? what do you allow etc. ? I know this is a wide subject, but I would be really happy for your opinions. Thanks... ------------------ ---- Thor Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest PrairieFire Posted September 9, 2002 Report Share Posted September 9, 2002 How do I start a young dog? Usually, I don't start them. They figure a way to squeeze through the fences, gates, barn doors, escape from kennels, etc. and start themselves and then I all I have to do is chase them down... Oh yeah, and that's what I look for in a pup. Wide subject, Thor? No kidding...when I have a few days, maybe I can answer more...got a trial this weekend at my place though... ------------------ Bill Gary Kensmuir, Working Stockdog Center River Falls, WI 715.426.9877 www.kensmuir.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ikw Posted September 11, 2002 Report Share Posted September 11, 2002 Thor! you again....put a little smiley thing right here. I'll second Bill's post. This is really a tough one for you. If you had sheep and your pup was exposed to it,they have a way of telling you they're ready. That's when you go puppy hunting from underneath sheep and they prefer to hide under them rather than get caught and dragged out of the field. First thing I try to teach them,that'll do while on sheep. If they are not abusive towards sheep,I just let them do and see what comes natural to them. At this point,farther they'll go,better it is since they lose a little heart and become little more cautious. When they get cautious,they don't do crazy things. Rest,let them enjoy it. No need to teach them anything or ask them to do anything. They begin to think this is the best thing they've ever done in their whole lives and can't wait to get back. Actual training is usually best if it's left until they are mentally mature enough to handle the pressure. You could teach them how to handle pressure away from stock but do it with a smile in your face. I've got two pups now,they are 4 1/2 months old and can't keep them away. They know every single stall where separated sheep are kept and can't wait to run over and take a peeksie at them. Some days I leave the electric fence off and see the sparkle in the eyes. Just so happens,I don't put a cord or leash on him or her. Watch the pup dive underneath the fence and go collect some woolies. One bends around tight, but at least she does it.Other goes right through them to get on the other side,then both seems to fetch them in a nice pace while adjusting themselves. To me,when the time comes,with the one who bends, I'll work on widening out her outrun,other one is going to have to learn the meaning of an outrun. Right now,both are sharpening their skills on reading sheep properly and covering them right on their fetch. When I call them off,both learned to come off rather easily,at least for now. One thing you could try to do for your pup,take him around where there are sheep. If he's really keen on them,let him go and make sure he will not get hurt by them. Watch what he does. Pups don't know when to quit but once he'll slow down,try to get his attention to call him off. When he does,drool all over him and tell him he's the best sheep pup in the world. If he wants to get back in later on,let him. Don't chase after him or scold him to make him stop. Wait till he gets tired,put a big smile on your face,get down on your knees and tell him "that'll do,here puppy puppy" ,get up and start walking away. When he does,tell him all sort of good things. There! Now send me a nice big check for this lesson,made out to ABCA. Better yet,send it directly to them. ------------------ Inci Willard Clearville,PA 814-784-3414 ikw@pennswoods.net [This message has been edited by ikw (edited 09-11-2002).] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thor Posted September 12, 2002 Author Report Share Posted September 12, 2002 hehe. yes, me again. Actually I have my own sheep. 5 "female" and one "male".(insert english words) She is interrested when I bring her close enough, but not very from a distanse. But I haven't let go of the leash yet. I am not sure how the sheep will react yet. Will it be a problem if I start her on one sheep? And what do you do if the dog dives right in and grips? Just in case.. my pup is close to 5 months so I am not in a hurry. Are the ABCA short on money? ------------------ ---- Thor Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest PrairieFire Posted September 12, 2002 Report Share Posted September 12, 2002 Hey Thor - got a minute waiting for daylight... The ABCA isn't really "short on money", but if you have some to spare, I'm sure they will happily put it to good use... Don't ever start a pup on one sheep. Ever. One sheep will fight. A basic tenet of shepherding is "take the many to the few"... Just let her go when you get close enough she's interested - at 5 months she's not likely to rip out a throat or anything serious...I would use a long cord I could step on - it just makes it easier to catch 'em and "wind 'em in" without having to yell... You want her to go to the backside and fetch - I've seen some dogs do this the very first time, perfectly. I've also seen some that take some work to get 'em there. Down the road, oftentimes, they end up equally as good. If she grips, just charge her, give her a good "GET OUT OF THAT" (in your native language, or whatever one you choose - I've always thought German might be a good language for "GET OUT OF THAT, YOU!"). This is also a nice place to be able to step on that cord and let the sheepie escape. ------------------ Bill Gary Kensmuir, Working Stockdog Center River Falls, WI 715.426.9877 www.kensmuir.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thor Posted September 12, 2002 Author Report Share Posted September 12, 2002 Well, I tried for 1 minute on one sheep before I read you post. She is very interrested. But as you said, one sheep will fight. And after 1 minute it started to show signs of fighting, I got between the dog an the sheep and called the dog to me. Bingo. Happy happy. now I will put her away from sheep for a few months. You like that don't you Inci? thank you for the answers. ------------------ ---- Thor Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ikw Posted September 13, 2002 Report Share Posted September 13, 2002 >>>now I will put her away from sheep for a few months. You like that don't you Inci?<<< Thor, While she's not my pup and haven't seen her,technically if a pup shows a lot of desire to be with the sheep,I let mine enjoy their puppyhood while trying their mini prowesses on them. Just have to watch and pay close attention where they DON'T get hurt at any time and that,they DON'T hurt the sheep or start picking bad habits. Letting pups on sheep at certain ages have a tremendous pluses as long as they are enjoying the experience. This goes hand in hand with their fear periods,at certain ages,they are fearless and it's best to catch them at those times. I cannot tell you exactly when that occurs,each pup is different and once they achieve a small victory over sheep (could be just fetching them to you or trying hard to hold them together),they seem to begin a new level of confidence in their outlooks towards life in general. I guess it's like kids,when they do well at their tests or in athletic events, they know it and they try even harder to top it without having nagged by parents or teachers. Even their relationship amongst friends becomes different. This is quite similar in pups,or at least from my observational point. I might add,I start or let pups to sheep in an acre lot or a 3 acres lot with an older dog who could keep things under control from a distance. Older dogs knows when a pup is in trouble,so I don't get much confrontations from sheep to the pup. That could be a great disadvantage to you and to your pup's beginning and I agree,never,ever let your pup come face to face with one or two sheep at any time and never put a pup with rams or ewes with a new born on their sides. Lastly,keep your voice to a whisper,keep your hands in your pocket and do not run,walk. ------------------ Inci Willard Clearville,PA 814-784-3414 ikw@pennswoods.net Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Fosher Posted September 13, 2002 Report Share Posted September 13, 2002 When a pup grips, I smile to myself and think, "Ah, there's a good lad" and say "You knock that off!" in a mildly annoyed tone, if I can fake it. See, a dog often grips because it knows it's in a situation it can't handle otherwise, and the pup's decision to latch onto a sheep tells me he's sized up the situation correctly. He's not in control and knows it. He wants to fix it and doesn't know how, so he goes to his teeth. The beauty of these dogs is that they will usually, given the opportunity, learn other ways to gain control pretty quickly. But at this stage, as Inci says, you're just trying to make sure that the pup has a good time with sheep, and a dog that's latching on and going for sheep rides probably isn't having a good time. It's time to either slow things down to the point where the pup can control them, or take the pup off sheep. I don't know if I'd wait a few months before taking him back to sheep. A few days maybe. or a couple of weeks. Just keep the exposure short and sweet. ------------------ Bill Fosher Surry, NH Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thor Posted September 13, 2002 Author Report Share Posted September 13, 2002 The reason why I asked the question about gripping is that I do not think I have seen a dog started that does not grip. One way or another. I can se the difference in the way the dog grips. Some grip out of frustration, some does not know any better, and some just want to eat sheep. And of course some reasons I don't know anything about. The small amount that I have tried my young dog, she is very unsure about this whole sheep thing. At first she didn't know if she should greet them or not. Tail wagging etc. Then came some barking and a bit chasing. I have only had her loose maybe 3 minutes on sheep. Going to wait until I can let her loose on really friendly sheep. What opportunity is it that you give these dogs? ------------------ ---- Thor Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thor Posted December 4, 2002 Author Report Share Posted December 4, 2002 Thought it was a good time to revisit this thread. I have tried her on sheep a few times now. her first instinct every time has been, chase and grip. The first time I got between her and sheep and said, ah-ah. She stopped. but as soon as I moved she was at it again. I believe she is very insecure, and to be honest I am very afraid that I am to do something that increase this fear. Should I use corrections when she dives in? Either by stepping on a cord, or blocking her? I am getting big headaches over this starting dogs thing. Everyone say that the first few times on sheep are very important. Well, then my dogs er destined to go straigt to hell. This is all starting to sound like nagging. But I can't help it. ------------------ ---- Thor [This message has been edited by Thor (edited 12-04-2002).] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jordi44 Posted December 4, 2002 Report Share Posted December 4, 2002 As one greenie to another, hang in there. Mine never seem to grip (except my first one that was very aggressive), and while I've been lucky enough that they tend to quickly get the idea of heading the sheep (going to the correct side), they seem to lose it there. My sheep are also very nasty. SO what tends to happen is I have a dog in the right spot, and everything stops - sheep don't move, dog doesn't move, and if I move, chaos. At five months, she could very well be afraid. I was told to watch their tales. If it's clamped, then she probably is afraid. However, if it's down, but loose, not clamped, she's probably ok. If you can, the next time you go out to let her at the sheep, try to get between her and the sheep - cut her off when she tries to dive in and force her out so that she has to circle on around to where she should be. Bruce Fogt gives some good trouble shooting tips and just some good general info in his book "Lessons from a Stock Dog". Even if it doesn't help, it's also entertaining reading. You can order it off his site: http://www.working-border-collie.com/. If you can find someone more experienced close by that will let you come work with them, that'd probably help you both the most. Good luck and keep us posted. Hearing how people work out their problems gives me ideas for my own. Don't feel bad - Blaze is 1-yr-old tomorrow - and although he's been around sheep all his life, I've made no real progress with him. I'm planning on trying to get more serious here after the holidays (always seems to be something that takes priority). Merry Christmas to everyone. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frank/Maggie Posted December 4, 2002 Report Share Posted December 4, 2002 Thor, I too are in the process of starting a new pup. He is almost 6 months. However I am working with a good trainer. A couple of weeks ago we let him in a small pen with about 6 dog broke sheep to see his reaction. He would circle and sometimes grip but was having a grand time. We only kept this up for about 5 minutes, when the trainer said, enough for now. We had him in long enough to see what his current tendencies might be and to see to check the eye factor. We may wait another month to put him on sheep again. My suggestion is to find a good trainer with really dog broke sheep and give it a try again. ------------------ Frank Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest PairDogx1.5 Posted December 5, 2002 Report Share Posted December 5, 2002 I'm very green too, so take what I say with many grains of salt, but -- I'll bet it's insecurity and young-ness. I'm curious though, does the dog grip and hold, or just a quick nip? If it lets go right away, what does it do then? Dive in and grip again, or wait awhile? How big is the space you're working in? Have you been able to work the dog after it's a little tired and run some of the edge off? Same thing when tired? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thor Posted December 5, 2002 Author Report Share Posted December 5, 2002 The pup is almost 8 months now. I am not in a hurry. About the gripping. She holds on to the sheep. Until I tell her to let go. I have the Bruce Fogt book. And all my training is very similar to that. I have tried and intend to keep on blocking her when she "bust sheep". I hope she will come out of it when she gets a little older. My training paddock is about 32m*22m. A bit smaller then I would like. But it is all I've got. Also my sheep are starting to get very sour. The only run between 2 places. But I are getting new sheep soon. There is no one close by that have a lot of experience. We are a very young community. So I don't think I can get much help from others. ------------------ ---- Thor Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jordi44 Posted December 6, 2002 Report Share Posted December 6, 2002 Thor - Liked your statement of "try" to block - sure looks a lot easier on paper than in actual practice - doesn't it? Even when I think I know what I'm doing, I don't seem to be quite as fast as Blaze. Guess I need to get into better shape. Good luck. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Charles Torre Posted December 6, 2002 Report Share Posted December 6, 2002 I know what you mean about getting in shape in order to start a young dog. On the other hand, it always seems to me that the Big Hats never have to do much running when they are starting our dogs. I have seen some pretty old and/or out of shape handlers who work the young dog just fine while younger and fitter newbies are about to have a heart attack after the same kind of session. The pros can read the situation so well they put themselves in the right place so not much running is needed. One piece of advice I'll never forget when starting an eager dog: "Stay with the sheep. The dog isn't going anywhere else." charlie [This message has been edited by Charles Torre (edited 12-06-2002).] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest PrairieFire Posted December 6, 2002 Report Share Posted December 6, 2002 "Stay with the sheep. The dog isn't going anywhere else." If it does, sell it quick... ------------------ Bill Gary Kensmuir, Working Stockdog Center River Falls, WI 715.426.9877 www.kensmuir.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Charles Torre Posted December 6, 2002 Report Share Posted December 6, 2002 Too true. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest borderkatahdin Posted December 6, 2002 Report Share Posted December 6, 2002 I have a dog that started out grippy when I first put her on sheep. She would go straight in and grab hold, and not let go. I pried her off, and she would dive right in and do the same thing. It took me some time to get her to square up her flanks, and give the stock some room. She loves close contact. My first impression was that she was tough and hard, and that it would probably take alot to get through to her. Well she's tough as in can handle stock well, but turned out to be very biddable, just incredibly keen. I found out the quieter I am, including quiet corrections, the quieter she is. She will grip sometimes, not often, like in a stressful situation, or if necessary, but she's only 2 now, and I see the stressful situations lessening as she matures and gets used to different situations. So don't worry too much, it'll come. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cowsavy Posted December 7, 2002 Report Share Posted December 7, 2002 I start my pups a little different than most trainers do. I have a rectangle lot that is about 500 yards long and about 75 yards wide. I have a gate on both ends and a cross fence in the middle with a 12ft gate in the middle of the cross fence. I keep a few dog broke sheep in the lot with the x-fence gate open. I also feed my sheep at the x-fence so it is no problem getting them to the gate.Now this may not be a correct method but it works for me. I will bring my pup in the gate on the end where the sheep are. I don't say anything to the pup. I will walk toward the sheep and through them if I can and just walk to the gate in the center never looking back just a steady walk. The first time or two you may have sheep going everywhere for a few min. But they are wanting to get to the feed. and they will be comming to the gate anyway. The pup usually will try to bring them to me cause he wants to be with me and also have his toys to play with and unless he brings them he can't have both. To me this stops the circling and enhances the fetch. When he does this a few time I will replace the tame sheep with a litte wilder ones that make him work alittle to get them there.These I don't feed at the gate. This is his working talant that gets them there no training. He figers out what he has to do and I let him. When he can fetch the wild ones to me then I begain to let him know that we can work together and do it a little easer. I have had good luck with this, I think the secret to it is not looking back and keep walking. He wants to follow and wants the sheep to go too. I will prase him when he gets them to the gate where he can hold them or not I don't care just as long as he brings them.I don't like a dog to circle. To me that is a habbit that causes trouble from the start. If you ever have to send one that has been let circle out of sight of you to bring in stock he will just circle them till he see's you. I don't need a dog that I have to walk till I can see him to bring me the sheep. I don't have this problem starting my pups using this method. I would like to hear some of your coments on starting one this way. I do have problems once in a while but not as many as I did starting one in the round pen. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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