diarrhea advice?

[Alchemist]

Duncan woke us up at 4:45 this morning needing to go out - very uncharacteristic of him, usually he's very considerate following evenings when I've been up grading past midnight. Turns out his intestinal system was in turmoil, with slightly loose bowels. We fed him breakfast not long thereafter. Thinking it might be another round of his semi-regular "loose stool" diarrhea (which hadn't resurfaced in a couple of months, since we gave him Panacur in early January), we fed him white rice and boiled ground turkey with some Panacur for good measure. He subsequently requested to go outside to poop, not once but several times, and it soon turned into full-blown watery diarrhea shortly before it was time for me to leave for work.

 

DH stayed home with him this morning, as I didn't think my (carpeted) office was a place to bring a ~ 1-year-old pup with the roaring runs. He reported that Duncan was requesting to go outside all morning at ~ 15 minute intervals. Lots of gas and watery bowel movements, but not bloody.

 

We called the vet and they managed to fit him in around 3 PM. No temp, he seemed active and cheerful, not dehydrated, he just had the roaring runs. (This evening he seems a bit more subdued; relatively little interest in ice cubes, which is out of character for him). They suggested we keep up with the Panacur for a full week, keep him on a bland diet, and that we give him Immodium to try to control the runs. He's up to date on all his shots so they felt Parvo or distemper was extremely unlikely. They said we could do a scan for multiple agents - Clostridium, Salmonella, Crypto, etc. - but that we'd need a ~ 5 g stool sample. That would probably mean collecting a minimum of 5-10 of his pathetic squirts at this point (i.e., something that's not at all easily managed).

 

He's not a counter surfer, nor has he ever gotten into the trash. He normally eats kibble with some canned pumpkin added in for extra fiber. He doesn't go outdoors unsupervised (he goes outdoors on a leash only). That being said - he's a "detritavore", loves nothing better than snatching deer or rabbit poop off the ground whenever my attention is distracted in walking him.

 

I'm fretting as he's still got the roaring runs ~ 17 hours after his first symptoms. We did give him a 2 mg Immodium caplet this evening, but he threw up about an hour later. (No signs of the caplet, though). A mixture of undigested kibble (from last night) plus turkey and rice. We think we'll skip dinner for him tonight.

 

Oh - we've tried him before on Metronidazole. An experience we don't want to repeat. The only thing I've ever seen that made him vomit more profusely was the hydrogen peroxide we gave him when he ate a wild mushroom.

 

Thankfully I had the foresight to put a tarp down in the back of my station wagon before I hauled him to the vet. Poor boy, he's one stinky guy at this point.

 

Whoops! He just vomited again - 2.5 hours after having been given the Immodium.

 

Any suggestions/advice gratefully accepted!

[IPSY]

IMO , dont give any meds right now, especially flagyl or immodium !

I would never give immodium !!

Dont give any pepto because it has aspirin it it and it can make him worse.

Has your dog been vaccinated for Lepto ?

I read you are giving canned pumpkin ? Are you giving it in every meal ? Too much of it can have the opposite effect.

 

If he still vomitting , bring him to the ER. He can get dehydrated very , very fast ,he will need fluids .

If I were you , I would make every attempt to collect the stool and bring it in. Let him empty in the house so you can collect it if you have problems getting it outside.

 

The ER will be able to run blood tests in house and have a better picture of what you might be looking at and a course of treatment. I wouldnt wait.

Like you mentioned , he is slowly going down hill , not himself . So thats your sign to take him in now.

 

This is what I would do if he were my dog.

[BCjetta]

My dog had a similar incident which started the day before we were going on a long roadtrip (and I could think of nothing she could have gotten into) - it was a wednesday. It started around 4pm just after I got off work and bathed her. I did not feed her that night. The diarrhea happened all that night, every 2 hours getting us up. She even vomited once or twice - probably because her intestines were so upset. Finally at 5am I got fed up and I went to work and gave her some barium (it can help soothe things) and took a couple x-rays just to make sure everything looked ok. About an hour later, she had barium coloured diarrhea with some blood in it so her intestines were really moving. I went into work and got some metronidazole because of the blood and some flagyl I believe and we started on our trip - now thursday. I did not feed her anything wednesday night, thursday or friday until dinner time when I fed her 1 teaspoon of canned gastro type food. She was only allowed water. The no food thing for several days seemed to help her guts settle down and she had no further diarrhea after she was empty and had nothing more comming through. Saturday I fed her a few tablespoons of food several times, sunday I gave her some of her normal food and sunday evening she had the first normal bowel movement since thursday am (because she'd totally emptied herself). I think the big thing that stopped it with her was the strict no food for more than 24 hours so everything could settle down.

 

3 years later, we discovered she seems to have a form of IBD focusing in her stomach (lymphocytic plasmacytic enteritis). Not sure if it just flares up here and there and caused the diarrhea issue or what because I know she did not eat anything different.

[bc4ever]

If he still vomitting , bring him to the ER. He can get dehydrated very , very fast ,he will need fluids

The ER will be able to run blood tests in house and have a better picture of what you might be looking at and a course of treatment. I wouldnt wait.

Like you mentioned , he is slowly going down hill , not himself . So thats your sign to take him in now.

 

This is what I would do if he were my dog.

I agree. Don't wait. Take him in. Dehydration is a real possibility as sick as he's been. Going slowly downhill can turn into a crisis situation in a hurry.

 

Prayers being sent your way. Keep us posted.

Pam

[juliepoudrier]

I think I also would give him at least 24 hours with no food or meds. Nothing. If he can keep ice/water down, that would be fine. If not, I'd do subQ fluids to keep him hydrated.

 

J.

[Sue R]

Just a quick reply - NO IMMODIUM! I had food poisoning, took immodium thinking it was run-of-the-mill diarrhea, and became very nauseous. If it can't go out the rear, it may well go out the front, and you might just be perpetuating bacteria and toxins in the intestine that the diarrhea is "attempting" to remove.

 

Fast for at least 24 hours - for 12 hours after the last bowel movement that is diarrhea. Then, reintroduce food slowly and carefully. I use the CRaP approach - poached, boneless, skinless Chicken breast; soft-cooked white Rice (I cook in low-sodium chicken broth or just the broth from the poached chicken); and canned Pumpkin (or the equivalent).

 

I'd start with just a couple ounces of each and up to six small meals a day - and only if no more diarrhea. If the diarrhea does not abate with fasting and the bland, small diet, I'd call the vet.

 

Very best wishes!

[scomona]

I don't have a lot of dog experience- but this happened to Shiloh just a couple of weeks ago.

 

We did as mentioned above- boiled rice and meat, the vet gave us a medicine "neovast".

 

Shilohs gums were very pale so we were worried. He wouldn't drink water so I made the "gastro formula" wet food from the vet into soup to keep him hydrated. The vet was really firm that even though we took blood and stool samples- that if he was still vomiting after 24 hours we need to come back immediately. Luckily the vomiting stopped and he would eat the "soup".

 

Even on the last day of meds his stool was still runny and he still seemed sick. That day I picked up "bio-k" which is a super high probiotic supplement and I gave him a spoon full with every meal. I dont know what ended up helping...but within a day he was back to normal and his stools are back to being well formed.

[Ms.DaisyDuke]

I agree with everyone else who says fast him. Daisy frequently gets upset stomachs (well not frequently, but about 1/year) and we fast her for 24 hours and give her the bland diet. Usually rice and ground turkey for a couple of days. In the past when it's been really bad (the first couple of times I went out of town) it was likely due to stress and the vet did give her xantac to settle the gas and upset stomach. It worked really well, but it's liquid and not particularly fun to give via syringe!

Hope Duncan is ok!

[Alchemist]

Thanks to all for your input!

 

IMO , dont give any meds right now, especially flagyl or immodium !

I would never give immodium !!

Dont give any pepto because it has aspirin it it and it can make him worse.

Has your dog been vaccinated for Lepto ?

I read you are giving canned pumpkin ? Are you giving it in every meal ? Too much of it can have the opposite effect.

 

IPSY, why do you recommend against immodium? (Not challenging you, just trying to learn more). I see Sue's bad experience, and it makes a lot of sense that diarrhea is a body's attempt to purge toxins. Still, I know a lot of dog people who use it for control of diarrhea, so I'm curious. Certainly we only gave it on the advice of the vet he saw yesterday. I'm pretty sure that the immodium is what made Duncan throw up; he only started yesterday evening after I gave it to him, and hasn't vomited today. At this point he's happily eating ice cubes in his crate.

 

He has not been vaccinated for Lepto; as a puppy he received DHPP, not DHLPP, vaccines. Wouldn't that tend to present with a fever?

 

Things seem to have tapered off a bit. He still has diarrhea (a few drops at a time, still no blood, thankfully), but less frequently than yesterday morning and afternoon. And it doesn't seem as gassy. He did make a small mess in his crate overnight, and of course it got all over his "bloomers", so until I have some hope of bathing him and not repeating the exercise every half an hour, he's at risk of being renamed "Stink Dog" and no longer has the run of the house. His mood was good when he thought there was a chance we were going for a walk, but I don't like to let a dog spread something potentially contagious around the neighborhood, so we kept it to our yard. He was a bit crestfallen when I asked him to go back into his crate. He's usually happy to go into his crate, but this time hesitated and gave me this "oh, no, not again, what have I done to deserve this?" look.

 

The vet did check him yesterday afternoon for signs of dehydration and said he was fine - gums weren't tacky and refilled quickly. Of course, the vet also didn't tell us to fast him for 24 hours (which is now what I'm reading is best for an adult dog, which he's close to being, and which many of you have recommended). I guess yesterday I just went on automatic and gave him boiled ground turkey and white rice, which is what we gave him whenever he had diarrhea as a puppy. But a near-adult dog can handle fasting a lot better than a small puppy.

 

Oh, the pumpkin. I don't think this is likely to be causing it; we've been adding a spoonful or so to his kibble for six months or so, and it only seems to help (his stools can be soft if we've run out of it; I've sometimes had trouble finding it at our grocery store). Nearest I can figure is that this diarrhea is the result of his eating deer or rabbit poop or some similar delicacy he's snatched off the ground while on a walk.

 

I've got some Fortiflora (a probiotic) that I think I'll add to his food once I start feeding him again. And I think I'll call the vet to give them an update. This is continuing longer than I'd like. At least today's "winter weather advisory" doesn't seem of sufficient magnitude to trap us in the house. Last night I was stressing over the thought of getting snowed in AGAIN, only this time with a pup who might need IV fluids soon.

[ejano]

Thanks to all for your input!

IPSY, why do you recommend against immodium? (Not challenging you, just trying to learn more). I see Sue's bad experience, and it makes a lot of sense that diarrhea is a body's attempt to purge toxins. Still, I know a lot of dog people who use it for control of diarrhea, so I'm curious. Certainly we only gave it on the advice of the vet he saw yesterday. I'm pretty sure that the immodium is what made Duncan throw up; he only started yesterday evening after I gave it to him, and hasn't vomited today. At this point he's happily eating ice cubes in his crate.

 

He has not been vaccinated for Lepto; as a puppy he received DHPP, not DHLPP, vaccines. Wouldn't that tend to present with a fever?

 

Things seem to have tapered off a bit. He still has diarrhea (a few drops at a time, still no blood, thankfully), but less frequently than yesterday morning and afternoon. And it doesn't seem as gassy. He did make a small mess in his crate overnight, and of course it got all over his "bloomers", so until I have some hope of bathing him and not repeating the exercise every half an hour, he's at risk of being renamed "Stink Dog" and no longer has the run of the house. His mood was good when he thought there was a chance we were going for a walk, but I don't like to let a dog spread something potentially contagious around the neighborhood, so we kept it to our yard. He was a bit crestfallen when I asked him to go back into his crate. He's usually happy to go into his crate, but this time hesitated and gave me this "oh, no, not again, what have I done to deserve this?" look.

 

The vet did check him yesterday afternoon for signs of dehydration and said he was fine - gums weren't tacky and refilled quickly. Of course, the vet also didn't tell us to fast him for 24 hours (which is now what I'm reading is best for an adult dog, which he's close to being, and which many of you have recommended). I guess yesterday I just went on automatic and gave him boiled ground turkey and white rice, which is what we gave him whenever he had diarrhea as a puppy. But a near-adult dog can handle fasting a lot better than a small puppy.

 

Oh, the pumpkin. I don't think this is likely to be causing it; we've been adding a spoonful or so to his kibble for six months or so, and it only seems to help (his stools can be soft if we've run out of it; I've sometimes had trouble finding it at our grocery store). Nearest I can figure is that this diarrhea is the result of his eating deer or rabbit poop or some similar delicacy he's snatched off the ground while on a walk.

 

I've got some Fortiflora (a probiotic) that I think I'll add to his food once I start feeding him again. And I think I'll call the vet to give them an update. This is continuing longer than I'd like. At least today's "winter weather advisory" doesn't seem of sufficient magnitude to trap us in the house. Last night I was stressing over the thought of getting snowed in AGAIN, only this time with a pup who might need IV fluids soon.

 

It sounds like Duncan (aka "Stinky") is starting to mend. Bet he will appreciate this bath!

 

Robin took about three days to settle down from his epicurean episode and a week to ease him back into his regular diet. I gave ice cubes, then tiny amounts of water and when all that stayed down, a lighter food mixed with rice in tiny amounts over the course of several hours. He's on strike now -- won't eat the lighter food, so its back to the regular diet as of today and he seems okay. He's just about a year old too...eleven months last week! It didn't seem to hurt him to go without food for close to two days, but he was taking ice and water.

 

Sometimes dog food companies (and human food companies as well!) change their ingredients without notice...I didn't get the memo when Canedia changed in Dec 08. We came home to an awful mess from both dogs.

[Journey]

Since he isn't dehydrating - fast him at least 24 if not 36 hours. Slowly start back on bland diet for a day or so if all is well back to your normal routine. Pumpkin shouldn't cause this and you're right most likely something he snagged on a walk. Relax, watch him and no food, no treats, no snack!

[Alchemist]

Update:

 

No diarrhea between first thing this AM and ~ 2 PM, so Stink Dog got a bath around 7 PM and resumed his regular name. (And weren't we glad to have had the foresight to have a handheld sprayer installed when we remodelled the bathroom this fall!). Of course, immediately after the bath, Duncan wanted out and had another bout of diarrhea. I told DH that the stress of getting bathed probably contributed. But he was still sufficiently clean that we allowed him to rejoin Polite Society.

 

I did call the vet today to let them know about the vomiting (last night; none after I discontinued Immodium) and the continuing diarrhea. They promised to get back to me. But didn't.

 

So: this is the vet that charged us $600 for sedated X-rays last summer that their external radiologist (another $150) said were "inconclusive", in part because they'd shot the wrong angles. (Of course that message wasn't returned until the day after he'd been sedated). The same X-rays that the ortho vet said "whaddaya mean, inconclusive? look right there! but why did they only shoot one shoulder, and not both shoulders, as long as they had him sedated?" and only charged us $150 for what proved to be more definitive X-rays. The same regular vet that kept charging us $27 for goodness how many fecal exams, most of which were negative, and several fortunes for special "GI food" for diarrhea that cleared right up after I gave Duncan Panacur after a suggestion from those of you on the BC Boards. Who got snitty with me when I suggested a 5-day course of Panacur, and said if I didn't like their suggestion of a 3-day course of treatment, I could find another vet. Who required about six phone calls to verify that the bloodwork we had had done in January would be good for the sedation for a neuter in March. (They kept promising to call me back...). Who didn't think to tell me yesterday that I should fast the poor pup if he had roaring diarrhea.

 

Is it any wonder that I'm starting to lose faith in this vet, and am relying more on input from those of you on the BC Boards than on my vet? Is it time for me to change practices? Or is this just another rhetorical question?

 

Anyway, thank you all once again for your suggestions. I'm quite certain that Duncan is on the mend, thanks in no small part to your input.

 

Ice cubes are much more fun, by the way, when you're allowed to chase them out in the open, than when you're forced to eat them in your crate.

[bc4ever]

Poor Duncan. Poor you. Wealthy vet. You're a lot more patient than I am if you're "starting to lose faith in this vet." That's just inexcusable on their part. Hope you and Duncan get some sleep tonight and he's feeling better soon.

[juliepoudrier]

^^What she said. I would have left this vet before now (like right after the whole shoulder debacle, and if not then certainly after being told I could find a new vet for making a suggestion counter to their recommendation), and I would have let them know exactly why (politely of course). Maybe ask some of your dog-owning friends who they can recommend. Two things of critical importance to me are that the vet be willing to discuss my animal's condition and treatment options thoroughly--which includes listening to my ideas and concerns on the subject, taking whatever amount of time is necessary to do so--and responsiveness. I realize that vets get busy, but if I am a regular client, I expect a response from my vet when I call. In return, I give my vet the courtesy of calling only rarely and only if there's a real problem.

 

J.

[ejano]

Definitely time for another vet, particularly as they've invited you to do so . We have one in our area who is building a huge vet care -surgery practice conglomerate on the wallets of his current clients.. Sure, that clinic has all the very newest and best equipment, but we don't go there. It's not that we don't want the best for our dogs, it's just that sometimes the best care isn't the most expensive care.

 

Hope Duncan is better now!

 

Liz

 

 

Update:

 

No diarrhea between first thing this AM and ~ 2 PM, so Stink Dog got a bath around 7 PM and resumed his regular name. (And weren't we glad to have had the foresight to have a handheld sprayer installed when we remodelled the bathroom this fall!). Of course, immediately after the bath, Duncan wanted out and had another bout of diarrhea. I told DH that the stress of getting bathed probably contributed. But he was still sufficiently clean that we allowed him to rejoin Polite Society.

 

I did call the vet today to let them know about the vomiting (last night; none after I discontinued Immodium) and the continuing diarrhea. They promised to get back to me. But didn't.

 

So: this is the vet that charged us $600 for sedated X-rays last summer that their external radiologist (another $150) said were "inconclusive", in part because they'd shot the wrong angles. (Of course that message wasn't returned until the day after he'd been sedated). The same X-rays that the ortho vet said "whaddaya mean, inconclusive? look right there! but why did they only shoot one shoulder, and not both shoulders, as long as they had him sedated?" and only charged us $150 for what proved to be more definitive X-rays. The same regular vet that kept charging us $27 for goodness how many fecal exams, most of which were negative, and several fortunes for special "GI food" for diarrhea that cleared right up after I gave Duncan Panacur after a suggestion from those of you on the BC Boards. Who got snitty with me when I suggested a 5-day course of Panacur, and said if I didn't like their suggestion of a 3-day course of treatment, I could find another vet. Who required about six phone calls to verify that the bloodwork we had had done in January would be good for the sedation for a neuter in March. (They kept promising to call me back...). Who didn't think to tell me yesterday that I should fast the poor pup if he had roaring diarrhea.

 

Is it any wonder that I'm starting to lose faith in this vet, and am relying more on input from those of you on the BC Boards than on my vet? Is it time for me to change practices? Or is this just another rhetorical question?

 

Anyway, thank you all once again for your suggestions. I'm quite certain that Duncan is on the mend, thanks in no small part to your input.

 

Ice cubes are much more fun, by the way, when you're allowed to chase them out in the open, than when you're forced to eat them in your crate.

[Alchemist]

Done. I now have an appointment with the new vet. It's someone who has been recommended to me by many people I've met while I'm out walking Duncan. They all rave about how kind they are, how much they really like dogs, and how patient they are with answering questions. And they're in the process of obtaining an underwater treadmill. It will be sooo much more convenient to take him there (instead of taking off half a day per week to drive him to the current ortho vet).

 

When I called them today with some questions, they immediately put me on to talk to a vet, even though I wasn't a patient. She told me that if I had any concerns about the diarrhea (he still had somewhat loose bowels this morning) that I should feel free to call her at any time this weekend.

 

I should have changed vets months ago. I definitely would have done so right after the incident with the "well if you don't like my protocol you can find a new vet", but my DH was due for imminent open-heart surgery, and I felt I had quite enough on my plate without looking for a new vet as well. But he's now back at work and I'm back in my own routine.

[bc4ever]

I should have changed vets months ago. I definitely would have done so right after the incident with the "well if you don't like my protocol you can find a new vet", but my DH was due for imminent open-heart surgery, and I felt I had quite enough on my plate without looking for a new vet as well. But he's now back at work and I'm back in my own routine.

Well, the important thing is that you changed vets and have an appointment.

 

I certainly understand how things can pile up on you and just don't have the strength to deal with one more issue.

 

Best of luck and let us know how the appointment goes!

Pam

[gcv-border]

 

No diarrhea between first thing this AM and ~ 2 PM, so Stink Dog got a bath around 7 PM and resumed his regular name. (And weren't we glad to have had the foresight to have a handheld sprayer installed when we remodelled the bathroom this fall!). Of course, immediately after the bath, Duncan wanted out and had another bout of diarrhea. I told DH that the stress of getting bathed probably contributed. But he was still sufficiently clean that we allowed him to rejoin Polite Society.

 

I did call the vet today to let them know about the vomiting (last night; none after I discontinued Immodium) and the continuing diarrhea. They promised to get back to me. But didn't.

 

So: this is the vet that charged us $600 for sedated X-rays last summer that their external radiologist (another $150) said were "inconclusive", in part because they'd shot the wrong angles. (Of course that message wasn't returned until the day after he'd been sedated). The same X-rays that the ortho vet said "whaddaya mean, inconclusive? look right there! but why did they only shoot one shoulder, and not both shoulders, as long as they had him sedated?" and only charged us $150 for what proved to be more definitive X-rays. The same regular vet that kept charging us $27 for goodness how many fecal exams, most of which were negative, and several fortunes for special "GI food" for diarrhea that cleared right up after I gave Duncan Panacur after a suggestion from those of you on the BC Boards. Who got snitty with me when I suggested a 5-day course of Panacur, and said if I didn't like their suggestion of a 3-day course of treatment, I could find another vet. Who required about six phone calls to verify that the bloodwork we had had done in January would be good for the sedation for a neuter in March. (They kept promising to call me back...). Who didn't think to tell me yesterday that I should fast the poor pup if he had roaring diarrhea.

 

Is it any wonder that I'm starting to lose faith in this vet, and am relying more on input from those of you on the BC Boards than on my vet? Is it time for me to change practices? Or is this just another rhetorical question?

 

*********************************************************************

Although my reply is a bit "after the fact", I would like to suggest another alternative to the excellent advice you have already received. Certainly, fecals are helpful, as are a bland diet or a short period of food withdrawal to let the gut settle down.

 

When my dog was younger, he would also have occasional unexplained episodes of diarrhea. I also leash-walked him or let him free range in the fields when I had my eye on him. He 'enjoyed' treats of rabbit and deer poop - although I would call him away from them if I saw him snacking. I have successfully used a product called BioSponge from PlatinumPerformance.com for diarrhea that is not associated with any other symptom (i.e. if my dog is otherwise active and happy and does not have a fever). I will usually try BioSponge as a first course of action. If I did not see improvement within 24-36 hours or if he showed other signs of illness, I would have gone to the vet. (Luckily, I have not yet had to do that.)

 

**Note: I am only a satisfied customer of BioSponge. I have no financial or other interest in the Platinum Performance company.

 

Expanded information about BioSponge is on the website, but the short explanation is that BioSponge is a type of clay that is believed to non-specifically absorb toxins or bacteria or other nasties that may reside in the gut (remember charcoal treatments?). I like it because it is a tool I can use that is NOT a drug. I like to believe that it is more gentle on the system. I have had success with it for my dogs (2) and my livestock.

 

I am also a strong believer in using a probiotic product whenever there has been an upset GI and after, or concurrent with, administration of any antibiotics.

 

Regarding your vet: I am glad to hear you will be trying a new vet. I have had my vet give me an incorrect diagnosis on an ortho problem (I don't expect a general vet to have the expert knowledge that a certified rehab vet does), but he did listen to me regarding alternative treatment suggestions from the rehab vet and did not berate me as you have described for your vet. Time to move on!

 

I am glad your dog is improving!!

 

Jovi Larson