A Common Misnomer

[geonni banner]

Very interesting, the things that put various people's backs up. For me it is diminutives like "Shelties," "Pitties" "Pekes" Poms" and "Min Pins." And then there is the "P.B.G.V." Ok, Petite Basset Griffon Vendeen is quite a mouthful, but...

 

I never though of these terms as belonging to the breed-ring culture, since I hear them mostly from pet owners. But it does seem to trivialize a living thing to refer to it with such a "cuteizm."

 

Mostly I expect that the use of such terms is pure laziness. It seems to be a trend, especially here in the US, to shorten every word possible. The internet has exacerbated this trend. I find it rather irritating. And then there's the deliberate misspelling thing, like on the LOL Cats website. Grump. Too cute...

 

I have found this thread very instructive, and will endeavor to clean up my use of the word herding. I had no idea that it was so irritating to so many people when used incorrectly. I didn't even know that I was using it incorrectly.

 

But now I do understand why it would grate. My personal hobby-horse is the word "Gypsy." To me it is a pejorative term. The right word is Rom or Romany. People who would never use the word "nigger" will blithely throw the word gypsy about without a qualm. There's even a breed of horse - the Gypsy Vanner - a term coined by an American importer who buys and breeds the horses developed by the Romany people. The Rom call them Cobs or Colored Cobs. I get so tired of conversations which have an exchange that finishes up with, "Colored Cobs? What's that? Oh! You mean Gypsy Vanners!"

[Pam Wolf]

Hence the

 

But seriously, training a stockdog is hard on livestock (even when it's beig done right). We manage the level of stress the best we can and accept the stress with the knowldge that the dog will eventially allow us to manage the stock with less effort and stress on the stock that without the trained dog. Let's not forget that the stock are being worked and stressed especially by young (learning) dogs.

 

Mark

 

 

While training is definitely stressful, working stock accustomed to dogs could be aruged as healthful for the sheep. A Vet friend who specialized in sheep said the healthiest sheep she saw were the ones that were worked daily.

 

On the subject of toilet. In Japan if you say "Where is the bathroom" you will NOT ifnd a toilet in it, only a bath, so culture does make a difference.

[Eileen Stein]

On topic, the use of "border" instead of border collie bothers the hell out of me. I don't know why but it always has, even before I ever "worked my dogs on stock" But, like Anda, I've wondered if people in other breeds feel the same way about abbreviations like "golden" for golden retrievers. I'm certainly guilty of using those abbreviations. That leads me to think I'm doing the exact thing to others that pisses me off in my breed. I've never heard it mentioned in another breed though. And then I think if it doesn't bother the other dog breed people then why am I being so persnickety about "borders"? Still...I hate it.

 

As best I can recall, all of the KC people and pet people I've known use these abbreviations and don't mind them at all. I think it feels natural to them to say "Golden," and "Golden" sounds natural to them when others use it. I think Donald would say these shorthand terms reflect disrespect for the dogs' function (often vestigial these days), because usually the particularizing adjective (Golden, Chessie, Lab) is used rather than the general noun which more typically describes the work for which they were developed (retriever). But I don't think that's it, because those folks seem to have if anything an exaggerated regard for the dogs and the function for which they are supposedly bred. They think their dogs are wonderful, and very much the retriever, shepherd, etc. Also, I've observed that KC people tend to be more likely to say "your hound" or "your terrier" in situations where we would say "your dog," and that doesn't seem to fit with disparagement or disregard of function. And then, of course, if you're using the term to distinguish one particular breed, you'd kinda have to use "Golden" because "retriever" wouldn't do it.

 

What I think "Golden" or "Border" expresses is familiarity, as most nicknames do -- "I know these dogs, I understand these dogs, I'm at ease with these dogs, I am so close to these dogs that it's natural and appropriate for me to call them by a diminutive." And to the extent that the term "Borders" bothers me I think it may be for exactly that reason. The people who tend to use it IMO are making an unjustified claim -- almost always they do NOT know and understand the border collie to an extent that would justify this familiarity.

 

Of course there's also the sloppiness of using a descriptor which is equally applicable to another breed of dog (Border Terrier).

[nancy]

In England, you hear "I'm going to the toilet" or "Where are the toilets?" all the time. If an Englishman visiting the US said that, his listeners might blink in surprise, because that sounds pretty blunt to American ears. That might be useful information for an English visitor to the US to know, but not because "toilet" is incorrect or a misnomer. It's basically information about how to "fit in," and whether you want to fit in or not is up to you, not a matter of right or wrong.

 

There's a reason for this. When I was in Lithuania, I asked our cousin where the bathroom was. He told me. then said that he suspected I really wanted the toilet as he didn't think I needed a bath. They are often separate rooms. In German the most important phrase I learned was "Wo ist de damen toileten?" WC also works - unless you're Jack Paar. Man, does that date me.

 

As to cultural differences: as a technical editor, I learned an important rule. Never use any hand gestures in an graphics or diagrams if there is a chance the product will be used outside you community. Every possible hand gesture is bound to be obscene somewhere.

 

I just got thinking, when I read "border" here, I think of terriers. Otherwise I think of a great hand-pulled ale we had up by Hadrian's Wall and keep looking for in North Yorkshire.

[Guest echoica]

I don't think I have ever heard someone refer to a BC as simply a 'Border' - but maybe I live a sheltered life I hear 'Collie' all the time though...as an abbreviated form. Really, I just err on the side of being polite rather than correct the person. Chances are they are just not a breed geek...and probably don't have a BC anyway.

 

As someone pointed out above, it really is a matter of perspective: Pet vs. Working vs. Sport et al.

[Ooky]

I was intrigued so I had to ask DH about "gotten" - since he copy edits, teaches grammar, and has an MA and PhD, he is my go to. He asserts that the reason gotten is mostly unused, as JLJ says, is that they don't retain a fine distinction us Americans do...

 

"Okay, this is actually a very nuanced distinction. And you're

right--British English (the typical way we describe it) has gotten rid

of this distinction, but it's still very much alive in American English.

"Got" and "gotten" are both past participles of "to get." "Got" suggests

ownership or possession in the present . . . as in "She has got three

suits" meaning she has them in her possession and who knows when she

acquired them. "Gotten" suggests the action of receiving or acquiring .

. . as in "Recently, she has gotten three suits" suggesting the action

of receiving rather than the act of possession. Get it? In your example

of "gotten used to" it's a little tricky since this is an idiomatic

phrase, but it suggests that you have acquired comfort about the

situation rather than already possessing it."

 

LOL! I'm sure I am using either got or gotten wrong some of the time now.

 

More On Topic, I try to use "working" "stock work", etc. here as much as possible, or put herding in quotes to show I understand the poor usage and distinction. But I don't usually correct people in my real life that don't know better and are just using the term colloquially. In general, I DO feel like sort of a poseur for using "work" even here, for some of the reasons Paula mentioned, as even though I am trying to learn stock work I definitely feel like a 1st-grader in the grand scheme of things, and have not accomplished much real work yet. Although yesterday I did a tiny tiny bit and was pretty ecstatic about it!

[Withzia]

I've read this thread, cringing as I realized that I had doubtlessly referred to "herding lessons" when speaking to our instructor, and wondering what she thought of me for that.

 

Then I looked back in my old emails, and realized that her usual subject heading when announcing her lesson times is "Herding."

 

She hosts a USBCHA-sanctioned trial each year.

 

Is it possible this is a regional thing?

 

Edited to add: By a regional thing, I mean I wonder if the allergy to the term is a regional thing. I don't see a huge presence of the AKC border collie types in Utah and adjacent states, so I wonder if the stockwork people around here just see us amateurs' tendency to use the term "herding" as harmless rather a sign of evil AKC brainwashing.

[JohnLloydJones]

. . . as in "She has got three suits" meaning she has them in her possession and who knows when she

acquired them.

British English prefers "She has three suits". Language teachers have long waged a war against this usage. In fact they have long tried to stamp out the verb "get" in most places where a more precise word would be be more effective.

[juliepoudrier]

British English prefers "She has three suits". Language teachers have long waged a war against this usage. In fact they have long tried to stamp out the verb "get" in most places where a more precise word would be be more effective.

JLJ,

I am American and I edit, write, and manage publications for a living. I have to admit that if I were editing the sentence that includes "has got" I would simply delete the got as being redundant, since the word "has" conveys the meaning that the suits are hers. As Ooky's DH noted, though, if I were talking/writing about someone acquiring suits, I would most likely say "She got three suits," since that is the clearest way of saying that she went out and got them (although I might be even more correct to say "She bought three suits" if she actually bought them and didn't acquire them some other way), but I wouldn't find the "has gotten" usage cringe-worthy, especially if, say, I were responding to someone who asked me, "Did she get any suits?". Then again, I tend toward wordiness (as anyone here can probably attest), and so I try to be very cognizant of not using extra words where none are needed.

 

J.

[Sue R]

I've read this thread, cringing as I realized that I had doubtlessly referred to "herding lessons" when speaking to our instructor, and wondering what she thought of me for that.

 

Then I looked back in my old emails, and realized that her usual subject heading when announcing her lesson times is "Herding."

 

She hosts a USBCHA-sanctioned trial each year.

 

Is it possible this is a regional thing?

 

Edited to add: By a regional thing, I mean I wonder if the allergy to the term is a regional thing. I don't see a huge presence of the AKC border collie types in Utah and adjacent states, so I wonder if the stockwork people around here just see us amateurs' tendency to use the term "herding" as harmless rather a sign of evil AKC brainwashing.

I think there are many top-flight, experienced, working dog trainer/handlers who have absolutely no objection to the word "herding" in many contexts. Most of the same people, if not all, would not use the word "Borders", at least not in my experience. There are many of those same folks who take training dollars and/or sell pups or dogs to AKC folks without blinking an eye. It's business.

 

This is a minor issue that bothers some people a lot, and some people not one bit. And maybe it is regional/cultural. AKC and AKC activities are a big presence in some areas, maybe more so than others.

[desertranger]

To me they've always been working dogs.

[Frogs & Dogs]

Well, you learn something every day don't you? I'm a relative newbie to the board and the world of border collies in general, and while I don't believe I've ever referred to our beloved breed as "borders", I apologize for making a few of you cringe by saying that my dog herds animals.

 

I agree with the poster who said that the use of the term doesn't necessarily reflect any allegiance to the dog fancy world. I'm just about as disgusted with that bunch as anyone here, and that's one of the many reasons I fell in love with border collies. Regarding the use of the H-word, I didn't know better than to use it, and now I do - simple as that. I'll probably continue to use the H-word around folks who wouldn't have any idea what I was talking about if I said "working stock".

[ErinKate]

Here's my question....

 

Who cares? Seriously. I mean, I hear terminology that irks me in just about every aspect of my life. Some of the big trainers I know/work with, have used that dreaded H word, and I haven't seen them go all agog. It just doesn't matter. I will say that I don't think we are working sheep, I believe we are working the dogs. At least I HOPE we aren't working the sheep. But, again, it's a matter of semantics.

 

What really amazes me is that this perennially sticks in everyone's craw. It should not be the talk, it should be the walk.

 

Quit reading after I read this post. It summed it up for me.

 

Ok I lied, I read a few more:) I thought the OP response to this was rude. Not using the correct terminolgy does not make you any less of a value to the dog world. "Don't handicap yourself" As was said, judge by the walk, not then talk.

 

BTW, being a horse person I don't think any less of someone who asks me who the "mother"/"father" of a horse is. Those titles are HUMAN. If you want to know the dam or the sire, I will tell you. If you don't understand who the horse is "out of" or who he is "by" I don't cringe, or insult, I just enlighten.

[mum24dog]

I look at it this way. It's not inaccurate or a misnomer to say that you and/or your dog are herding if you are gathering and moving livestock. "Herd" and "herding" have several recognized meanings, and that is one of them. However, these terms do serve to some extent as a cultural marker. This is not something a person knows instinctively without being told, so giving them this information is a valuable service to someone who is moving between different cultures. It lets them know what the terms generally connote to a particular audience, and gives them the knowledge to modulate the impression they may be making if they so choose. Beyond that, harping on it is silly IMO. I don't hesitate to use the terms in conversation with people who will understand them better than the terms that might come more naturally to me, in the interests of clarity and courtesy.

 

This sums it up.

A word only has meaning if it is mutually understood by the people using and hearing it. If a very small section of the population (those who work their dogs seriously) use "herding" to mean one thing and the rest use it to mean something different, whose usage is going to win out in the long run?

I'm a pedant and I'm used to losing battles against popular usage of language. (Anyone else want to scream at the constant confusion between "defuse" and "diffuse" or "imply" and "infer"?)

In real terms there is no right and wrong in language, only mutual comprehension and communication.

 

Pam

[mum24dog]

I get the Borders vs Border Collies thing, but you guys got me thinking - do other breeds owners cringe the same when I reffer to Cocker Spaniels as Cockers or Irish/English/Gordon Setters as Setters? Afgan instead of Afgan Hound? Beardie instead of Bearded Collie? It's not a "dog fancy" issue... it's just convenience....

 

On this side of the pond I've never heard anything other than a Border Terrier called a "Border" and the term is common amongst BT breeders I know.

Cockers is the term everyone I know who has one uses - and that's a lot, especially the working variety. That would apply to both working and show lines. An American Cocker wouldn't normally just be called a Cocker.

And everyone I know with a Beardie calls them that, again most of them working type.

No idea about Setters as they aren't very common.

As far as BCs are concerned they are just collies and if you use the term a BC is what virtually anyone will understand.

Rough Collies are called that, not collies.

 

Pam

[JohnLloydJones]

A word only has meaning if it is mutually understood by the people using and hearing it. If a very small section of the population (those who work their dogs seriously) use "herding" to mean one thing and the rest use it to mean something different, whose usage is going to win out in the long run?

Words can often have different meanings for different groups of people. This is especially true of the language of people in a particular subject area -- called jargon -- which can maintain distinct usage from the general public.

[mum24dog]

Words can often have different meanings for different groups of people. This is especially true of the language of people in a particular subject area -- called jargon -- which can maintain distinct usage from the general public.

 

Of course. If the "herding" community want to keep a specialised meaning within their own closed circle it will be mutually comprehensible between them.

However, if they try and impose their specialised meaning on society as a whole they will fail because the average person who even considers the term understands something different by it.

An exception is the use of computerspeak. It makes no sense in terms of word:meaning but it has taken a wider hold because of the number of computers in general use. Working stock with sheep isn't that common.

 

Pam

[Jeanne Joy]

Since sheepdog and stockdog trials have developed into an increasingly popular sport they attract a wide variety of people, many of which do NOT come from livestock backgrounds. Consequently, all sorts of new terms enter the sheepdog/stockdog lexicon. Terminology that you never heard twenty, thirty years ago is now frequently used. To be quite honest, I cringe when I hear someone describe their dog "flossing" sheep. I think of skin bruising. It also makes me think they have never shorn many woolies.

 

People define what they don't understand. When I first heard people refer to "the draw," the thing that came to mind was the random group of stock selected for the run order (as in luck of the draw) at a trial. Instead, they were referring to the attraction stock has when one head or a small group is separated from the other animals. That is terminology used by trial competitors, but not stockmen. In my entire life, I never heard a stockman explain "the draw" to describe the naturally occurring behavior of livestock. All stockmen know when a single animal or small group is separated from a herd or flock they are attracted or "drawn" to the remaining animals. It is stock sense. It was just understood. It didn't have to be defined. The list goes on and on, but life is way too short to be easily offended by insignificant things.

[rushdoggie]

...but life is way too short to be easily offended by insignificant things.

 

X1.