A Common Misnomer

[Donald McCaig]

Dear Doggers,

 

Ms. Kelpie Girl asks,

 

"Who cares? Seriously. I mean, I hear terminology that irks me in just about every aspect of my life. Some of the big trainers I know/work with, have used that dreaded H word, and I haven't seen them go all agog. It just doesn't matter. . .

 

What really amazes me is that this perennially sticks in everyone's craw. It should not be the talk, it should be the walk."

 

 

While I hope to write a longer post on our dog talk, until then I note that the "Democrat Party" is not the same as "The Democratic Party". Words, as Joseph Goebels and Winston Churchill knew, matter.

 

One learns how to handle a sheepdog in much the same way an infant learns to speak the language - all at once. We are more comfortable thinking - as behaviorists do - that experience is made up of discrete particulars. Not so. We may take home a few insights from a clinic or coach but while there we have absorbed body language, vocal intonation and the shepherd's ancient understanding of sheep - even if we don't own livestock and never intend to.

 

Learning to work a sheepdog is total immersion in a pool whose dimensions and depths are traditional, gentle, admirable and to the beginner largely unknown. I remember how confused I was and how I was often most confused when I thought I had something nailed.

 

The beginner doesn't know what's important and what isn't. Dog should never bite sheep? Never say never. Dog should stop at 12 o'clock directly behind his sheep? Sometimes. Handler shouldn't command on the outrun? Except . . .

 

It can be funny when novices adopt a fractured scottish accent to work their dog: "Laaadie, Laah DOOON!!!"

But when you don't and can't know what's important, the sensible learner imitates. At first the hows are more accesible than the whys.

 

That's why this "perennial" discussion of the"herding" misnomer is "perennial". Those who routinely use the misnomer are still immersed in another dog culture, the dog fancy, which exhibits a different understanding of the dog.

 

That's okay. Nobody wants to be the Word Police. I usually wince and let the misnomer slide. But novices cannot learn to work a sheepdog to an acceptable standard remaining inside the Dog Fancy's way of looking at dogs and sheep.

 

Learning how to work a sheepdog is the work of a lifetime. It's difficult, humbling, ecstatic and, finally, mysterious. Don't handicap yourself.

 

Donald McCaig

[kelpiegirl]

Um, forgive me Mark, but PULEEZE. Seriously? I am not THAT much a newbie. CLEARLY we are MOVING the stock, but to say we are working them, to me is a stretch- semantics again. Yes, they are being forced to move where they would rather not, and yes, they are having to spend energy doing it. Your term "giving them a work out", applies to ALL aspects of using dogs on sheep, not just training, but in every day farm work.

 

 

 

 

If you think that training sheepdogs does not give the sheep a work out you're not paying close enough attention to the stock. Even when the dog is correct the stock do not move that much by choice.

 

Mark

[Mark Billadeau]

Um, forgive me Mark, but PULEEZE. Seriously? I am not THAT much a newbie. CLEARLY we are MOVING the stock, but to say we are working them, to me is a stretch- semantics again. Yes, they are being forced to move where they would rather not, and yes, they are having to spend energy doing it. Your term "giving them a work out", applies to ALL aspects of using dogs on sheep, not just training, but in every day farm work.

Hence the

 

But seriously, training a stockdog is hard on livestock (even when it's beig done right). We manage the level of stress the best we can and accept the stress with the knowldge that the dog will eventially allow us to manage the stock with less effort and stress on the stock that without the trained dog. Let's not forget that the stock are being worked and stressed especially by young (learning) dogs.

 

Mark

[BCBaxter]

I find this thread both enlightening and hysterical at the same time....is that a misnomer? Umm, no..more a quandary me thinks.

[Debbie Meier]

Lately I've been working my sheep by taking them on "forced marches" in an effort to encourage them to go ahead and lamb (you know, like pregnant women being encouraged to walk to bring on labor).

 

 

 

J.

 

Sorry to go off topic, but I have to ask, does it work??? I still have 2 hold outs, but no marches today, it's only 1 degree...burrr.

[PSmitty]

It is an issue of association. While neither word is appropriate in meaning or use as pointed out, if the use of these words was not associated with the kennel club mindset, a lot of mis-information, and going to "have fun" with one's dog "doing what it was bred to do" (even if it's ancestors haven't been bred for stockwork for decades), it wouldn't bother me half so much. It comes too close to the "sheep as dog toys" mentality. Otherwise, it would just be an issue of someone who didn't know any better, and not someone whose "roots" lie in the kennel club.

 

And yet, many times it IS "just an issue of someone who didn't know any better, and not someone whose "roots" lie in the kennel club".

 

Or as in my example, someone like me who does know better, yet speaking to someone who doesn't.

 

Or as in the example of your friend, just someone who doesn't get caught up in the semantics of it.

 

I guess I don't understand painting everyone who says "herding" with the same broad strokes...

 

ETA: Sue, I'm not just directing this at you, I only wanted to use your quote, because I know that many, many people here share your sentiments.

[juliepoudrier]

Sorry to go off topic, but I have to ask, does it work??? I still have 2 hold outs, but no marches today, it's only 1 degree...burrr.

It hasn't worked so far, and since it's raining/freezing rain/snowing here, I don't think they'll be doing any forced walking today (because I'm a wimp--and would rather not have lambs in this weather anyway....).

 

J.

[RoseAmy]

What does it matter? Well to me alot. Personally I find the term "borders" insulting. My dogs are border collies..they are part of a group of dogs that have been bred to serve the shepherd and to work sheep. They have been carefully bred to perserve those qualities and insincts. Those instincst are a gift that few other dogs have.

 

Anyone who refers to my dogs as borders is politely but firmly corrected.

 

My hang up I know..But my dogs deserve the respect.

[Sue R]

I understand, Paula. While it's an issue to some folks, it is not to others. However, I am grateful for the OP and the topic because I think it's part of the learning curve. I am always eager to learn a bit more about working Border Collies, and this is one of those periforal items of understanding. It's not just a dog - it's a culture.

 

Approaching the whole issue of stockdogs with a mind open and willing to learn can include understanding terminology, and endeavoring to use it correctly. People can choose what they wish to say and how they wish to say it, and when and why they say it. But, as in all other aspects of life, what you say does either indicate how you feel about something or how someone else may interpret how you feel about that same thing. Isn't that why we, within reason, tend to "choose our words" before we speak?

 

When I am talking to someone who "goes herding" I don't have to use that term. I can ask if they are going to have a lesson, or how did the lesson go, or how did their dog work on sheep. I can encourage or just listen, but I don't have to adopt someone else's manners of speech. I can even educate at times (but haven't been very successful at that ). Newbies should always be given a little slack, just like a pup in early stages of training.

 

Different strokes for different folks, and words are not the most important of our issues - but what we say and how we say it is in insight into our feelings and respect for the dogs and what they do. Your use of certain words may well be motivated by respect for the people with whom you are talking, as well.

[BCBaxter]

Excellent post! I think you nailed it on the head with this comment:

"It's not just a dog - it's a culture."

 

 

 

I understand, Paula. While it's an issue to some folks, it is not to others. However, I am grateful for the OP and the topic because I think it's part of the learning curve. I am always eager to learn a bit more about working Border Collies, and this is one of those periforal items of understanding. It's not just a dog - it's a culture.

 

Approaching the whole issue of stockdogs with a mind open and willing to learn can include understanding terminology, and endeavoring to use it correctly. People can choose what they wish to say and how they wish to say it, and when and why they say it. But, as in all other aspects of life, what you say does either indicate how you feel about something or how someone else may interpret how you feel about that same thing. Isn't that why we, within reason, tend to "choose our words" before we speak?

 

When I am talking to someone who "goes herding" I don't have to use that term. I can ask if they are going to have a lesson, or how did the lesson go, or how did their dog work on sheep. I can encourage or just listen, but I don't have to adopt someone else's manners of speech. I can even educate at times (but haven't been very successful at that ). Newbies should always be given a little slack, just like a pup in early stages of training.

 

Different strokes for different folks, and words are not the most important of our issues - but what we say and how we say it is in insight into our feelings and respect for the dogs and what they do. Your use of certain words may well be motivated by respect for the people with whom you are talking, as well.

[JohnLloydJones]

Anyone who refers to my dogs as borders is politely but firmly corrected.

 

Language usage is a way of identifying people. To me, someone who refers to my dogs as borders identifies themselves as a dog "fancier" -- or at least someone who has picked up their lingo. Generally, I assume that they live in a different world that has a different language and I don't waste my time trying to "correct" them. Should I correct an American speaker for using "gotten", a form that has long since disappeared from the English language? Do I flinch when I hear them use the locative "at"? Do I get upset when people use the term "hacker" as an exclusively derogatory description, when real software folks use the word as a badge of honour (with absolutely no connection to illicit activities)? No, I just accept that different groups use words differently. Words do matter; your choices tell the listener a lot about you.

[kelpiegirl]

I watched a good movie some time ago. It was about a former country girl gone citified, who met a real city guy. They ended up going home to her parent's ranch, and city boy was well, treated to some good ol' boy razzing. He stuck it out though. At one point, he asked his girl friend's father "How many acres do you have?" The father screwed up his face and said, rather emphatically "Son, that's like asking a man how much money he has in the bank".

 

I guess that's pretty much the tack I take on this. If someone calls my dog a Border, it says something about the speaker's back ground, but it doesn't offend me, any more than other forms of ignorance offend me (and trust me, I don't suffer fools easily).

 

I think many old timers have great ways of handling the faux pas they hear- one is a nice broad smile- I can recall many experienced handlers offering them when asked some rather inane question..

 

One thing that I asked early on, is "why is the down so important?" I got an answer, but I never got it, until I LEARNED it.

 

As for pride in our dogs, we all have that, I would assume. Dogs are a bit more self deprecating though, and I bet they wouldn't be offended by off hand use of ill-advised terms.

 

As for pride in my dogs, well, run a Kelpie in trials some day Not long ago, I was at a trial, where there was also a fair going on. A lady walked by and looked at my Kelpie and said " That doesn't LOOK like a herder". My good friend stood there next to me, and we smiled. That illustrates how I take this stuff.

[jdarling]

Anyone who refers to my dogs as borders is politely but firmly corrected.

 

My hang up I know..But my dogs deserve the respect.

 

If I thought for one second that by encouraging the dog fancy to refer to my dogs by a certain name would get them to respect my dogs, I would probably try also. However, I know that despite what I may be able to teach the fancy about the proper "lingo," they will still think of it as their "borders chasing sheep" in their head, no matter what comes out of their mouth. Having them use their cutesy little terms keeps things ... perfectly clear.

 

ETA: JLJ, you said that much better than I did. Thank you!

[kajarrel]

It's not just a dog - it's a culture.

 

And very respectfully Sue (because I truly respect you), there are several different cultures of people who value the working border collie (or at least the culture isn't monolithic). I think this is something that is missed sometimes on this list.

 

Just so I don't get "pegged" in the "show dog camp", if anyone has doubts about my views about sheep, dogs and working sheep, I have 8 years of posts on this list (and more on others) to peruse.

 

Sorry to have belabored this so many times,

 

Kim

[alligande]

Another fascinating discussion, in many different worlds there is a specific language and if you are going to play in that world you need to learn the language. I have spent most of my life around sailboats, crossed oceans etc, I am married to a professional sailor and most of our friends are involved with boats either as their sport or profession. If you were to walk into a bar and listen to a conversation after a regatta, or even sit at my diner table, to an outsider none of would make any sense but the names and terminology has evolved over centuries and is often based on safety and the ability to communicate precisely.

Farming and sheepdogs are just the same and if you want to be part of the world you have to learn the language, using "herding" to Mr McCaig has to sound as odd to him as some one using left and right on boat instead of port and starboard does to me.

[Sue R]

You aren't belaboring this - there are differing opinions expressed in a civil manner here, and that's fine. That's what discussion is all about.

 

Just a quickie about different cultures - my eldest son was on a mission among the Hmong people in California (his companion was working with the Lao, so they went together to both Hmong and Lao households). Sitting in a living room, my son was tossed a small ball by a young Hmong or Lao woman in her early teens. He tossed it back. Big mistake. In their culture, a young woman expresses romantic inclinations by tossing a ball. A young man who tosses it back is letting her know the feeling is mutual, and marriage may not be far off.

 

So, for one, it was close to a proposal of marriage. For the other, it was just tossing a ball. Different cultures, worlds apart! That's why I try to say what I mean and mean what I say, and oftentimes am not very successful at either!

[Laurae]

I have always gotten (gotten?! I'm not convinced this word has disappeared from the English language, and I am an editor by profession) the feeling that some of the cringeworthiness of some of these terms may be due to regional differences in culture. In my area, people (long-time open handlers) do sometimes say herding when they mean working. But perhaps the KC hasn't had as much of an impact here?

[Anda]

I get the Borders vs Border Collies thing, but you guys got me thinking - do other breeds owners cringe the same when I reffer to Cocker Spaniels as Cockers or Irish/English/Gordon Setters as Setters? Afgan instead of Afgan Hound? Beardie instead of Bearded Collie? It's not a "dog fancy" issue... it's just convenience....

[Eileen Stein]

I look at it this way. It's not inaccurate or a misnomer to say that you and/or your dog are herding if you are gathering and moving livestock. "Herd" and "herding" have several recognized meanings, and that is one of them. However, these terms do serve to some extent as a cultural marker. This is not something a person knows instinctively without being told, so giving them this information is a valuable service to someone who is moving between different cultures. It lets them know what the terms generally connote to a particular audience, and gives them the knowledge to modulate the impression they may be making if they so choose. Beyond that, harping on it is silly IMO. I don't hesitate to use the terms in conversation with people who will understand them better than the terms that might come more naturally to me, in the interests of clarity and courtesy.

 

Maybe a good illustration, along the lines of those JLJ gave, would be the word "toilet." In England, you hear "I'm going to the toilet" or "Where are the toilets?" all the time. If an Englishman visiting the US said that, his listeners might blink in surprise, because that sounds pretty blunt to American ears. That might be useful information for an English visitor to the US to know, but not because "toilet" is incorrect or a misnomer. It's basically information about how to "fit in," and whether you want to fit in or not is up to you, not a matter of right or wrong.

[Denise Wall]

Personally, I'd like a consensus on this whole "gotten" thing. Every once in a while I use "got" instead and get this elated feeling of being a radical. It's deflating to find out I was just being correct.

 

On topic, the use of "border" instead of border collie bothers the hell out of me. I don't know why but it always has, even before I ever "worked my dogs on stock" But, like Anda, I've wondered if people in other breeds feel the same way about abbreviations like "golden" for golden retrievers. I'm certainly guilty of using those abbreviations. That leads me to think I'm doing the exact thing to others that pisses me off in my breed. I've never heard it mentioned in another breed though. And then I think if it doesn't bother the other dog breed people then why am I being so persnickety about "borders"? Still...I hate it.

[Debbie Meier]

I don't know, sometimes I wonder if people work harder at using the proper terms so that they fit in then they do at learning what the proper use of the dog is.

 

I continuely here the echoing words of a well known clinicianer firmly stateing to a proud student after exhibiting her dogs "talent".... "That's not herding, that's chasing and I would not even pass your dog on a herding instinct test."

 

Deb

[JohnLloydJones]

(gotten?! I'm not convinced this word has disappeared from the English language, and I am an editor by profession)

I should correct myself by pointing out that it does still exist in certain idiomatic phrases, such as "ill gotten gains", but mostly the word "gotten" has fallen into the obsolescent category. I speak, of course, about the English language, not the American variant.

 

In England, you hear "I'm going to the toilet"

That may sound blunt to American ears, but in fact it is a relatively polite version that indicates the speaker was showing some respect. Among locals in many areas, the phrases used in such cases are often much less polite.

[Debbie Meier]

I've wondered if people in other breeds feel the same way about abbreviations like "golden" for golden retrievers.

 

When I was at a sporting show a few weeks back and observing the converstion between the different trainers they were referring to the dogs by the style of work, ie: pointers, retrievers, hound then they would talk about the specific breed, German Pointer for example. I would suspect if someone came up to them and said "I have a Golden" that they would automatically know that the person has a pet and not a working dog. I'm thinking that the abbrviated form of the breed "Border, Golden, Doodle, etc. is more of a term of endearment that a person that is focusing on work is not going to embrace.

 

Goes back to my comment about being included, the ones using "Golden" are striving to be accepted into a different group then the ones that would use "retriever" in conversation.

 

Just some thoughts...

 

Deb

[Sue R]

But, like Anda, I've wondered if people in other breeds feel the same way about abbreviations like "golden" for golden retrievers. I'm certainly guilty of using those abbreviations. That leads me to think I'm doing the exact thing to others that pisses me off in my breed. I've never heard it mentioned in another breed though. And then I think if it doesn't bother the other dog breed people then why am I being so persnickety about "borders"? Still...I hate it.

I was a member of an AKC affiliate club for some years, and I spent some time as a teen with good friends who had AKC dogs and were involved in AKC obedience. In all my admittedly limited exposure to folks in a kennel club setting, they always seemed the first people to use "abbreviations" and "nicknames" for breeds - Rottie, Yorkie, Dobe or Dobie, Doxie, Aussie, Border, Cairn, Jack, and so on. Most of them absolutely dote on their dogs and love them just as intensely as anyone could. Short names like these are convenient and oftentimes "softening" - like Rottie for Rottweiler or Dobie for Doberman Pinscher. Makes it sound kind of cute and fuzzy, not intimidating.

 

What probably bothers me is the common use of "Border" when the dogs are really collies (or working dogs, traditionally, but now pre-empted by the Rough and Smooth Collie folks - at least in our US/Canadian culture where the working sheepdog is not so extensively used or widely known as in the UK). It doesn't seem affectionate like many nicknames (although it probably is to those who use it) to me - it seems demeaning, even though I am sure it is not meant to be. It is a clash of cultures concept, from my point of view.

 

Your mileage may vary!

[Anda]

Goes back to my comment about being included, the ones using "Golden" are striving to be accepted into a different group then the ones that would use "retriever" in conversation.

 

 

I don't think those using "Golden" want to be included in any particular group. But those using "retriever" have made the choice to focus on the breed's purpose rather than a particularity of a specific breed. They are the ones who are forming a group by using certain terminology - a working group if you will.