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2o2o help


Carlasl

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I have been working with Maya on her 2o2o position with a plank in the house, we work on it occasionally because I am not super happy with how she is doing it and I don't want to create a problem by doing it to much.

 

The issue is this, she knows that I want her two front feet off the end, but she isn't terribly enthusiastic (she isn't DRIVING) to the end, and this is a dog that DRIVES to EVERYTHING. once she knows what you want she does everything with GUSTO, so I feel like I am not communicating with her very well what I want.

 

The other issue is that she doesn't seem to understand that I want her to wait in that position until her release word, I don't really want to tell her to wait I want it to be automatic that she stays in the 2o2o position until she hears her release. She is also hesitant on the release and I want her to explode off the contact to the next thing or to a game of tug with me.

 

Right now I am telling her to hup on the board, she will wait close to the end until I say feet and she will put her two feet on the end, I give her a marker (either a click or verbal "yes") and give her a treat in the position, Then I try to wait a minute and release her to a game a tug with me.

 

She is just so un-enthusiastic about the whole thing that I know she doesn't fully understand her job.

 

Any suggestions. I do not want to use a nose touch or target at the end of a contact I want her to know and understand the position in and of itself.

 

Thanks!

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Right now I am telling her to hup on the board, she will wait close to the end until I say feet and she will put her two feet on the end, I give her a marker (either a click or verbal "yes") and give her a treat in the position, Then I try to wait a minute and release her to a game a tug with me.

 

She is just so un-enthusiastic about the whole thing that I know she doesn't fully understand her job.

 

No offense intended, but your approach doesn't sound like much fun to me and I'm not your dog. :rolleyes:

 

First, I want to say that I am not a fan of a 2o/2o. I don't like what it does to the dogs stride or the pressure it puts on the dog's joints. If you are going to use a 2o/2o, try to make sure you pull the position out away from the board enough that the dog is reaching for the position and ending up in a position that is more level with the ground. This is even more important with the aframe then it is with the dogwalk.

 

That being said, I would be teaching the behavior with a foot target first and the foot target training would be fun. High intensity of rewards, lots of quick release to a reward, very short sessions. Once the foot target was a enjoyable behavior for your dog, I'd transfer it over to the plank. I do not ever start target training with a hold at the end. I release the dog as soon as it is properly in position for the reward with a clear release word. Once the dog has a strong, enthusiastic behavior on the board you can proof a longer period before release.

 

If your dog is unclear about the release, crate games or basic stay and release games should improve it's understanding of the release word. Throwing a toy or releasing to a toy do wonders for building drive from the release.

 

Best,

Jen

 

Flute AAD, AX, OAJ, OAC, OGC, NAJ - semi-retired

ADCH Enna TM - Silver, SACH, GCH, SCH, JCH, RCH, MX, MXJ - rescued champion

Rising Sun's Hot to the Touch - aka: Fever - retired due to epilepsy

Ignited's Molten Rush, aka: Lava - BC puppy in training

Kasi EAC,EGC,EJC, OA,OAJ - (1992-2007)

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I felt Chase was having the exact same issues as you are describing with the 2o2o. He either blew off his contact or he would be very hesitant and stop about a foot up (only on the a-frame and the dogwalk). I felt he wasn't completely sure what I was asking of him. (I do not use a target or food.)

This is what my instructor had me do and it has seemed to help Chase understand fairly quickly -

first she had me mess around with him offering behaviors and clicking him for anything he offered (the box games - 100 things to do with a box or something like that). We worked on that at home for a week. Then the next class I had to show her his box tricks. She had me have him jump up on the downside of the dogwalk and he had to figure out to go all the way to the end to do his 2o2o and maintain that position until released, and he got clicked for it and rewarded on the contact. So in essence he offered that behavior and got rewarded. That seemed to transfer to the a-frame and we progressed to playing tug on the a-frame contact when he did his 2o2o. I did not release to the game of tug, we actually played tug on the bottom of the a-frame.

I was quickly able to run past him at full speed and also able to hang back while he maintained his 2o2o.

This is just something that Chase understood and it worked for him so far. (Still working on it between snowstorms - sigh) Sorry for the lack of technical terms, if there are any to describe what I've done.

 

So I just read the post from jenkshipley and now it has me thinking about the joint pressure that comes with the 2o2o - yikes! I have noticed that Chase has been slamming down to his contacts since going back and working him the way I described. He has no problems driving off his contacts at this point.

Jen, what do you do for the contacts?

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The issue is this, she knows that I want her two front feet off the end, but she isn't terribly enthusiastic (she isn't DRIVING) to the end, and this is a dog that DRIVES to EVERYTHING. once she knows what you want she does everything with GUSTO, so I feel like I am not communicating with her very well what I want.

 

Well, if you think about it, it can be difficult for the dog to really understand what you want with this particular behavior.

 

You want the dog to stop, you want the dog to drive. Which is it? How is the dog to know? I've always found in training a 2 on 2 off, that inevitably, the dog slows down while approaching the contact point. Well, the dog is going to stop - slowing down is very sensible! Now, you want speed, so the dog stops stopping. Makes sense to the dog - you were trying to get him to go fast, after all!!

 

See what I mean? It can just be tough for the dog to really understand that switch from drive to stop to drive. With 2 on and 2 off, no less!

 

The other issue is that she doesn't seem to understand that I want her to wait in that position until her release word, I don't really want to tell her to wait I want it to be automatic that she stays in the 2o2o position until she hears her release. She is also hesitant on the release and I want her to explode off the contact to the next thing or to a game of tug with me.

 

Right now I am telling her to hup on the board, she will wait close to the end until I say feet and she will put her two feet on the end, I give her a marker (either a click or verbal "yes") and give her a treat in the position, Then I try to wait a minute and release her to a game a tug with me.

 

My approach would be to break the elements that you want down into pieces and work on one thing at a time. So, when I'm working on driving, I'm not working on stopping. When I'm working on stopping, I'm not working on driving. When I'm working moving the dog into position, I'm not working on speed or release. When I'm working on release, I'm not working on position or speed.

 

Then I would put it back together a couple of pieces at a time.

 

Some ideas:

 

1. To get a more enthusiastic release, you could have someone restrain her at the end of the board (just with a gentle arm across the chest). Have them rev her a bit and then you say the release and let her explode to the tug.

 

See, in doing that, she is not responsible for holding her position while she learns to explode to the toy.

 

2. To get better movement into position, use the bottom of the stairs or a step stool to the floor. Don't worry about speed, just get the dog to move into position, and click/treat. I'd cue a wait here. The point is not to work on the default wait - it is to work on the position.

 

Then, I would transfer that back to the board - again, not worrying about speed yet.

 

3. To build the default wait, I would have the dog move into position (no speed to start), and build the uncued duration of wait at the end, using a clicker and treats, same as I do for a start line stay. I'd add in my own movement and vary my position gradually, once the dog gets the idea.

 

4. To work on speed over the contact, I would get someone to restrain the dog at the other end, and stand smack in front of the contact. Call the dog over, and be in place to reward at the end. Your position should stop her, but you can encourage drive down the board.

 

See what I mean by breaking out the pieces? If you are trying to teach two contradicting things at the same time like DRIVE . . . STOP! Or WAIT . . . EXPLODE!! It can be extremely confusing.

 

Once you get the pieces more solid, you can start to put them together and then backchain the whole thing.

 

Might help. That would be my strategy, anyway.

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No offense intended, but your approach doesn't sound like much fun to me and I'm not your dog. :rolleyes:

 

First, I want to say that I am not a fan of a 2o/2o. I don't like what it does to the dogs stride or the pressure it puts on the dog's joints. If you are going to use a 2o/2o, try to make sure you pull the position out away from the board enough that the dog is reaching for the position and ending up in a position that is more level with the ground. This is even more important with the aframe then it is with the dogwalk.

 

That being said, I would be teaching the behavior with a foot target first and the foot target training would be fun. High intensity of rewards, lots of quick release to a reward, very short sessions. Once the foot target was a enjoyable behavior for your dog, I'd transfer it over to the plank. I do not ever start target training with a hold at the end. I release the dog as soon as it is properly in position for the reward with a clear release word. Once the dog has a strong, enthusiastic behavior on the board you can proof a longer period before release.

 

If your dog is unclear about the release, crate games or basic stay and release games should improve it's understanding of the release word. Throwing a toy or releasing to a toy do wonders for building drive from the release.

 

Best,

Jen

 

Flute AAD, AX, OAJ, OAC, OGC, NAJ - semi-retired

ADCH Enna TM - Silver, SACH, GCH, SCH, JCH, RCH, MX, MXJ - rescued champion

Rising Sun's Hot to the Touch - aka: Fever - retired due to epilepsy

Ignited's Molten Rush, aka: Lava - BC puppy in training

Kasi EAC,EGC,EJC, OA,OAJ - (1992-2007)

 

haha, no offense, it isn't fun for her or me and that is why I am looking at other ways to teach it. I am mainly teach 2o2o for the dogwalk and the teeter, I am pretty sure I am going to do a running a-frame mainly because of the joint impact so if you have any suggestions on which method you use to teach that I would appreciate it.

 

We do need to do some more work with restrained recalls and release work it seems like no matter what I try she is demotivated when asked to hold a position and wait for a release. she absolutely knows her release word, she just seems demotivated about it sometimes especially when it comes to 2o2o. I try to make them super fun, but she seems to think it is a drag to wait for something.

 

I think she would like to work with sylvia trkman go go go all the time. lol

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So I just read the post from jenkshipley and now it has me thinking about the joint pressure that comes with the 2o2o - yikes! I have noticed that Chase has been slamming down to his contacts since going back and working him the way I described. He has no problems driving off his contacts at this point.

Jen, what do you do for the contacts?

 

I am now using a down that gets modified to a full running. I used a target, moved out to where the dog was fully off the board with my now retired young dog. I don't train a full running because of the repitition that is involved for life, but my end result for all of my dogs is basically a full running contact on both the aframe and the dogwalk.

 

There was an article in Clean Run about the stress of the 2o/2o. There are some people with dogs with beautiful 2o/2o contacts where the dog is comfortable and driving to and from the contact, but there are many dogs for each dog that is comfortable who is clearly and unquestionably not. 2o/2o is a pet peeve of mine. :rolleyes: Ever since it effectively taught my soon to be 8 year old BC to creep and she had to be retrained which took me almost a year after I realized how uncomfortable she was.

 

 

Best,

Jen

 

Flute AAD, AX, OAJ, OAC, OGC, NAJ - semi-retired

ADCH Enna TM - Silver, SACH, GCH, SCH, JCH, RCH, MX, MXJ - rescued champion

Rising Sun's Hot to the Touch - aka: Fever - retired due to epilepsy

Ignited's Molten Rush, aka: Lava - BC puppy in training

Kasi EAC,EGC,EJC, OA,OAJ - (1992-2007)

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We do need to do some more work with restrained recalls and release work it seems like no matter what I try she is demotivated when asked to hold a position and wait for a release. she absolutely knows her release word, she just seems demotivated about it sometimes especially when it comes to 2o2o. I try to make them super fun, but she seems to think it is a drag to wait for something.

I think she would like to work with sylvia trkman go go go all the time. lol

 

Why don't you try a down and then a release? Release from the down to a toy or to a tug. Work the quick down/wait for release away from the contact first. Make it a game to lie down fast and fun to get up and drive to the reward.

 

There are a million ways to train the contacts and a lot of people break the training up into a bunch of different parts, work the parts, put them together and work the whole. There isn't anything wrong with that. It works. I have just been training for a long time and I don't like to train things or work steps I don't have to work. :rolleyes:

 

I also don't want my dogs stopping on the contacts, except the teeter and it takes my BC's less then a second to have the teeter hit the ground, when it does, they can get off. :D I taught my 14 month old the teeter in about 20 minutes over three short sessions. Get on, don't fall off, stay on until the board hits the ground, drive off. She is pretty bold and fearless when it comes to equipment though so driving down the board to make it tip faster was natural for her.

 

I like Rachel's PVC box for the aframe. It seems like a method that would be effective, but I am too lazy to build the box and do the weeks of work she does before applying it to the obstacle.

 

Also, in real life, I believe my dog is going to end up getting on the contacts in all different ways from all different angles in all different footing in all kinds of weather conditions in her career - all of which is going to effect how she actually peforms the obstacle. I don't care how she goes about it, I concentrate on rewarding the result I want, which is for the dog to drive down and off the bottom of the board on all three obstacles.

 

If one of my dogs gets slow on the contact, I have a creeper who was retrained for example who occaisionally starts to creep, I lower it and run the thing for fun, purposely asking the dog to ignore the behavior I typically ask for on the bottom. If my dog is bailing early, I withhold reward and then play high intensity, high reward games on the end of the board to reinforce that area as a place my dog wants to figure out how to get to.

 

If you are set on keeping the 20/20, I would run the plank for awhile and make running on the plank fun without asking for any stop on the bottom.

 

I'd then leave my dog in a stay at one side of the plank, go to the other side and release the dog to come down the plank to me and tug without a stop until the dog was driving hell bent for leather down the plank to that tug.

 

I'd then put the dog on the end of the plank and have it wait just a beat and tehn get released to tug so I could add the stop if you want it.

 

I'd then put that together with the stay at the end until my dog was happily running down the plank, waiting a beat and then getting released to the tug.

 

I'd then work this on each side in motion with my dog, and then I'd put the whole thing on the dogwalk.

 

I'd keep my hold times very brief in the 2o/2o position until the dog was fully trained and happy with peforming the dogwalk. I'd then go back to just working the end of the obstacle and make holding longer a game. I'd never consistenly hold my dog for the same amount of time on the end. Sometimes I'd let her or him right off after she hit the position, sometimes I'd hold it just a tick, sometimes I'd hold it a little longer, etc.

 

Best,

Jen

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"I am now using a down that gets modified to a full running. I used a target, moved out to where the dog was fully off the board with my now retired young dog. I don't train a full running because of the repitition that is involved for life, but my end result for all of my dogs is basically a full running contact on both the aframe and the dogwalk."

 

This sounds interesting... So when the dog is fully off the board, is there a pause or stop initially (in the training phases) before driving off to the next obstacle, I'm guessing there is because they have to stop at the target? And when you start to teach the down, is it on the contact and then gradually move off? (sorry I don't want to sound dumb but I'm really just trying to completely understand. I do have a good idea but I don't want to go do anything without knowing that I get it) I want to go back and look at my issues of Clean Run to see if I might have that particular issue. I'm always concerned about injury. Thanks!

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I am currently doing the same with my 7 month old. Just teaching her the basic position. I shaped it, so when we are training I do not say anything I simply wait for her to offer me something. Offering the 2o2o position then builds value in itself because that is what earns her a jackpot. Make sure you use high valued reward especially because the contact is what so many people struggle with. It is something you should do ALOT before they ever start doing the whole obstacle. I did contacts on a board on the ground and then on the end of the obstacle for 4 months before my 20 month old ever went over the obstacle and now her contacts are bulletproof. I worked on them so much that it is her favourite thing to do. She was very unmotivated but we worked on them everyday and made it as fun as possible. It wasn't until she moved onto the full obstacle that she started to do it at warp speed. Now god forbid my instructor if they pull out an A-Frame at training for she will scream over it and keep screaming until she is released. :rolleyes: Which of course not what you want but the drive to do the contact is what you want. That is just my fault for letting her scream. :D

 

My puppy will wait in her 2o2o position until I give her a cookie. (Obviously if I wait too long she will offer something else) So I reward her for being in position and then throw a reset cookie further away and release her. (If i throw the cookie and don't say her release word she will run after the cookie anyway, because she doesn't know she has to wait just yet, so say it just as you throw the cookie, or before) If Maya has a release word she understands well, then this shouldn't be a problem. She should if it is shaped, wait in that position because she knows it will get her the reward. It should be hard for you to get her away from the board if it is reinforced enough or high enough. As for teaching them not to break the contact, that comes later with proofing. For now she just needs to fully understand she needs her back feet on the board and her front feet off it.

I wish I knew where my tripod bit to attach my camera was and I would record my sessions with Echo as we are exactly where you are right now, so I can sympathize.

 

I taught a release word through crate games, so for my pup waiting is always so exciting because she knows whatever she is released towards will be heaps of fun or extremely yummy. If she finds waiting boring, just reward her for waiting or not breaking a stay. Mix up how long she waits for, sometimes release her instantly sometimes wait a bit longer. Never wait for too long if it is demotivating, build up to that. My pup is a dog that is always on the go and runs for the sake of it, but has a fantastic wait because she knows it is so worth it. Teach her to wait to be fed, I do this and my pup is the first one to have her bowl infront of her but has to wait for me to dish out the other bowls before I give her a release. That may be a good way for raise the motivation if she loves her dinner. But crate games was the main one. Even if you don't use a crate just teach her for the release benefits you get out of it. When I go to let my dogs out of the crate in the morning she goes completely bonkers, thrashing around because she is so excited. But the second I open her crate door she goes dead still and narrows her eyes and quivers, quite hilarious too see, and the second she hears me say "break" she comes flooring out of that crate at 100kph. Just build waiting into your basic training, I think Echo is so good at waiting because the moment I got her all I did for 3 months was Stops (drop and wait) with some running built in as well of course.

 

Go back and make sure Maya release word is concrete and teach her to wait for things like her dinner, or coming out of the crate or even just in the yard and always release to something that is so much fun. At first the waits will be only short like 1 sec and she may be unmotivated. But you need to build the motivation slowly as well. Once she figures out how much fun it is and it may take a while she will have a dead still wait with a flying release.

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Thanks everyone,

 

I decided to email the trainer at the agility facility I train at, her dog has awesome contacts and we are going to do some private lessons to see what I can do to help my girl.

 

I am also going to do another Karen Holik seminar in April for young dogs

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All great ideas ! I would encourage the "wait" games when ever I can. At doorways , mealtime, ball retrieval , etc... I feel that is a VERY important building block for agility.

One of my dogs absolutely loves contacts . He has mastered the 2o2o in record time which really surprised me , but I think it was the "wait" game that enforced it. He quivers when he waits for my release word , then explodes off. It just "works" for him , but not so much for my other BC.

She works much better if I use somewhat running contacts . I have her stop for just a millisecond at the end of the contact , doenst matter if her feet arent in a 2o2o position . Most of the time , she will have once toe on the contact which is good enough for me , as long as I can keep up with her..LOL... :rolleyes: But again , I use the "wait" game throughout her training.

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I think Karen will have some great ideas for you!

 

Meanwhile...a very simple "drive builder" you can use, totally apart from the plank or any equipment is a simple race game:

 

Dog sit/stay.

You place toy or food on ground, start with nearby maybe 10', then move gradually/with reps, move farther.

Go to dog, restrain her, then say with incredible enthusiasm "GET IT!" (or whatever)and run towards the object.

If you get there first, YOU get it.

If dog gets there first, SHE gets it.

You can even push the dog back a bit so you get a head start.

Plan to win a time or two, then "let" the dog win (assuming she really is trying and driving) - THEN have a huge party.

 

You CAN transfer the "Get it!" to equipment, you could always do this on the plank too - but I'd start it on the ground/floor first. Great indoor winter game!

 

Other suggestions have been good. I would love to have a running A-frame, but mostly train by myself, and my eye is just not good enough, even with a fair amount of practice, to "click" Rachel's box at the exact right moment. I thought I had it - but in a test with an instructor realized I didn't. Thankfully my youngster does NOT slam the A-frame hard, and while it isn't Grand-Prix-winning fast, it seems easier on his body, and his 2o/2o is pretty darned solid - so I'm taking what I've got!

 

diane

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You have lots of good advice here :rolleyes:

A couple of points I noticed - but feel free to ignore as you have lots of ideas to work on anyway

 

To build excitment in something I do it just once every time before I go for a walk, it overcame Bens fear of the seesaw in a couple of days, he flys at them now

 

For the uncued stay - and for more excitment again, I reward lots more at the end. Dog hits contact, reward, reward, reward, release. Next time reward, reward, pause, reward, release. Repeate building up the pause or slight movment from you until your dog is glued in position even when you run past

This also makes the position a v rewarding place to be so they drive to it happier

 

I teach a 4 on the floor method, with a quick release makes a running contact. I also found using CU go to your place mat worked as a fab target at the base of the obsticle which can be phased out slowly and they learn the postion fairly quickly

- only problem I had was Mia was too keen to get to her position and launced from above the contact and landed lying down on the mat - easily fixed by showing her that the behaviour I wanted was running right down the obsticle then getting the mat

 

I like to have a possible stop at the end incase I have messed up and in the wrong place at least there is somewhere on course to pause the dog while I get myself sorted

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I think Karen will have some great ideas for you!

 

Meanwhile...a very simple "drive builder" you can use, totally apart from the plank or any equipment is a simple race game:

 

Dog sit/stay.

You place toy or food on ground, start with nearby maybe 10', then move gradually/with reps, move farther.

Go to dog, restrain her, then say with incredible enthusiasm "GET IT!" (or whatever)and run towards the object.

If you get there first, YOU get it.

If dog gets there first, SHE gets it.

You can even push the dog back a bit so you get a head start.

Plan to win a time or two, then "let" the dog win (assuming she really is trying and driving) - THEN have a huge party.

 

You know what is funny is I tried this, but this totally demotivated her. SHE HATES competition for things, if her and another dog (or me) are running for a ball or a treat and she isn't CLEARLY going to get it, then she won't even try.....goofy dog.

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You know what is funny is I tried this, but this totally demotivated her. SHE HATES competition for things, if her and another dog (or me) are running for a ball or a treat and she isn't CLEARLY going to get it, then she won't even try.....goofy dog.

 

Yeah, I tried this with Maddie, too, quite a while ago. It actually shut her down. She is definitely one to back off when a human wants something. If I'm reaching for something that she is going for, she will automatically defer ownership of that thing to the human. This can certainly work with a dog who will play "get to it first" with a human, but for certain dogs the game can actually backfire. It makes sense - I said, "get it" and then I took it. Is it hers or mine? Now she's not going to play. The rules are completely unclear.

 

This is controversial, but I do release her to a reward to build drive into the release. The key in this is not rewarding if the dog releases before the release cue is given. This has helped her a lot - both with her understanding of holding position until release, and with releasing with some drive.

 

So, I'll put her in a sit, move out past the first jump and go "reeeeady . . . reaaady . . . OK!" Note, this is not a dog who gets overstimulated. I would never rev up a dog who gets overstimulated. With the revving and the release, she starts to lean into her start line stay and explodes off the start line to me upon release.

 

It's fun for her and it has built up some of her drive. I don't do any stopped contacts with her, so I can't say for certain that it would translate to contacts, but I don't see why it wouldn't.

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This sounds interesting... So when the dog is fully off the board, is there a pause or stop initially (in the training phases) before driving off to the next obstacle, I'm guessing there is because they have to stop at the target? And when you start to teach the down, is it on the contact and then gradually move off? (sorry I don't want to sound dumb but I'm really just trying to completely understand. I do have a good idea but I don't want to go do anything without knowing that I get it) I want to go back and look at my issues of Clean Run to see if I might have that particular issue. I'm always concerned about injury. Thanks!

 

I train the down first. I did not use a target at all with my down. I used a target with my now retired 4 year old dog but with a modified 2o/2o that was trained as a quick release with the target on the ground first. Hit the target, click reward. I released with an okay, way later I proofed a pause before the release which I would have used when I needed the dog to wait at the end of a contact

 

The down has no target. I asked for the down, said the release and rewarded the dog. I then put the dog over the obstacle and adjusted the down by what behaviors I rewarded until I liked where the down was. I then began to vary the time I held the down or if I even waited for the down before release.

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I train the down first. I did not use a target at all with my down. I used a target with my now retired 4 year old dog but with a modified 2o/2o that was trained as a quick release with the target on the ground first. Hit the target, click reward. I released with an okay, way later I proofed a pause before the release which I would have used when I needed the dog to wait at the end of a contact

 

The down has no target. I asked for the down, said the release and rewarded the dog. I then put the dog over the obstacle and adjusted the down by what behaviors I rewarded until I liked where the down was. I then began to vary the time I held the down or if I even waited for the down before release.

 

Thanks! I only asked because I wanted to make sure I understood and because at this point in our training (mine), Chase is fast and I need a pause like that to regroup and get my bearings. Just me, I'm not used to fast. Thanks again.

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