Dog Attack on Mick - the outcome

[sea4th]

Here is the original thread:

 

http://www.bordercollie.org/boards/index.p...740&hl=mick

 

Mick is now at my house -- I've posted two other threads on why.

 

The dog warden was called in on it right from the beginning and she took the situation seriously. She got both sides of the story but it wasn't long before it became apparent that the other dogs' owners were lying, trying to blame Mick. According to them, Mick was to blame because he stares and occasionally wuffs at them, aggressive behaviors, according to these people who in my opinion, should not have any dog to begin with.

 

The dogs in this attack were an American Bulldog and a mixed breed. According to the AC person, the mixed breed is of more concern than the AB. Since Lakewood, OH within the last year or so passed a breed specific ordinance banning pitbulls and "canary dogs", these owners of the attacking dogs were ordered to pay for DNA testing on the AB. We weren't sure whether these people were going to go through with paying for the test. Afterall they don't take their dogs to the vet, and had allowed one of their dogs to die, a slow and lingering death without veterinary intervention. Vets cost money and that might cut into their vodka budget.

 

But pay for it they did. It had gotten to the point that all of this trouble came about because Mick's owner had some sort of agenda against them. She had to keep asking for reimbursement of the vet bills for Mick.

 

The results of the DNA testing was 50% AB and 50% "undetermined". The owners felt vindicated by the test results. However, the AC person was pushing for the "undetermined" to be translated as possibly pitbull and on that basis, remove the AB from the city of Lakewood. According to these people, my friend, Mick's owner was behind all of these efforts to rid them of their dogs. They appealed to the person above the AC officer who ruled in their favor. And so they are allowed to keep both dogs, no fines, nothing, NADA.

 

The AC officer was saddened to learn that my friend was moving because she had hoped that my friend would be there to keep an eye on these idiots, who by now, are probably celebrating a victory from their vodka and beer budget. There are neighbors who are also not happy about the decision of the city.

 

I'm going to get some names and get a letter together to the city of Lakewood and call them on their decision that maybe, had they enforced the laws on the city's books to begin with, there would have been no need to pass some sort of useless breed-specific legislation -- operative word here is useless, because apparently, if the incident with Mick is an example, dog attacks will continue in Lakewood, but as long as the aggressive dog isn't a pitbull, then owners of offending dogs can pretty much be assured of skipping away with a slap on the wrist, if that.

 

An example of breed specific legislation at work.

 

ETA - sorry if it reads kind of rough. I will never again try to write something before I feed the dogs.

[ejano]

Here is the original thread:

 

http://www.bordercollie.org/boards/index.p...740&hl=mick

 

Mick is now at my house -- I've posted two other threads on why.

 

The dog warden was called in on it right from the beginning and she took the situation seriously. She got both sides of the story but it wasn't long before it became apparent that the other dogs' owners were lying, trying to blame Mick. According to them, Mick was to blame because he stares and occasionally wuffs at them, aggressive behaviors, according to these people who in my opinion, should not have any dog to begin with.

 

The dogs in this attack were an American Bulldog and a mixed breed. According to the AC person, the mixed breed is of more concern than the AB. Since Lakewood, OH within the last year or so passed a breed specific ordinance banning pitbulls and "canary dogs", these owners of the attacking dogs were ordered to pay for DNA testing on the AB. We weren't sure whether these people were going to go through with paying for the test. Afterall they don't take their dogs to the vet, and had allowed one of their dogs to die, a slow and lingering death without veterinary intervention. Vets cost money and that might cut into their vodka budget.

 

But pay for it they did. It had gotten to the point that all of this trouble came about because Mick's owner had some sort of agenda against them. She had to keep asking for reimbursement of the vet bills for Mick.

 

The results of the DNA testing was 50% AB and 50% "undetermined". The owners felt vindicated by the test results. However, the AC person was pushing for the "undetermined" to be translated as possibly pitbull and on that basis, remove the AB from the city of Lakewood. According to these people, my friend, Mick's owner was behind all of these efforts to rid them of their dogs. They appealed to the person above the AC officer who ruled in their favor. And so they are allowed to keep both dogs, no fines, nothing, NADA.

 

The AC officer was saddened to learn that my friend was moving because she had hoped that my friend would be there to keep an eye on these idiots, who by now, are probably celebrating a victory from their vodka and beer budget. There are neighbors who are also not happy about the decision of the city.

 

I'm going to get some names and get a letter together to the city of Lakewood and call them on their decision that maybe, had they enforced the laws on the city's books to begin with, there would have been no need to pass some sort of useless breed-specific legislation -- operative word here is useless, because apparently, if the incident with Mick is an example, dog attacks will continue in Lakewood, but as long as the aggressive dog isn't a pitbull, then owners of offending dogs can pretty much be assured of skipping away with a slap on the wrist, if that.

 

An example of breed specific legislation at work.

 

ETA - sorry if it reads kind of rough. I will never again try to write something before I feed the dogs.

You and your friend have every right to be angry but at least Mick is safe.

 

For what its worth, I was told that Pit Bull and similar breeds do not like to have an eye fixed on them- they consider it aggression and will respond in kind - this after Robin was staring at a Staffie in obedience class and the dog went for him so perhaps there is some small truth there but also a vindication that the dog(s) are indeed pit bulls or very close relatives if they are acting that way - and if what I was told was true. Robin was indeed staring at the other dog, but he was only a four month old pup -- how much "eye" could he have had?! But that dog clearly wanted him for lunch. None of this excuses the other owners who clearly do not care for their dogs or keep them under control. I would not be surprised to hear that the owner of the Staffie gets in similar trouble one day. She's a nice lady but up until this stray appeared on her door steps had Maltese, which she had to separate from the staffie. Plus she didn't have the courage to take control of the dog.

 

The biggest frustration is an aggressive dog is an aggressive dog, no matter what the breed. As you say, if the city makes rules, they should enforce them and I heartily agree that a telephone/letter writing campaign is in order. Nothing irks me more than what are essentially unfunded mandates -- laws that are passed to protect the municipality which they have no intention of enforcing due to lack of manpower and lack of interest.

 

With good fortune, your friend will find a new apt with nicer neighbors and be reunited with Mick very soon.

 

Liz

[Bordercentrics]

Pit Bulls are not alone in reacting to the Border Collie eye, so that doesn't prove anything. Meg has a hard eye, and I have to keep her away from German Shepherds for this reason. She hasn't met one yet that didn't react. There is a breed that so far has never reacted to her eye and that is Dachshunds! They just waddle up and play with her!

 

I am glad that Mick's owner is able to move - neighbors like that make life very unpleasant, even without the dog problems. I assume she will keep looking for yet another place so she can bring Mick home again.

 

Kathy Robbins

[mbc1963]

My BC also reacts to eye... no matter what breed gives it. So, I wouldn't want to generalize about that.

 

Sounds like Mick's owners and their other dogs are in a better place all around. I wouldn't have been comfortable staying in that other place, with neighbhors like that.

 

Mary

[ejano]

Pit Bulls are not alone in reacting to the Border Collie eye, so that doesn't prove anything. Meg has a hard eye, and I have to keep her away from German Shepherds for this reason. She hasn't met one yet that didn't react. There is a breed that so far has never reacted to her eye and that is Dachshunds! They just waddle up and play with her!

 

I am glad that Mick's owner is able to move - neighbors like that make life very unpleasant, even without the dog problems. I assume she will keep looking for yet another place so she can bring Mick home again.

 

Kathy Robbins

 

Agreed that generalizing is always risky - though Ladybug doesn't like German Shepherds either. She's actually afraid of them, which makes me think that one might have come after her once because she doesn't back down from anything else. I wouldn't say that Robin has an overly strong eye -- not like Brodie who really focuses on things. Robin is usually more considering - a "What's that?" kind of thing, but he was definitely trying out a new power that day -- when he finished his mischief with the Staffie, he turned to his left and tried it on a beautiful Anatolian Shepherd (whose owner realized what was going on far earlier than I did). That beautiful dog just looked down at him with this,'You're not big enough to play that game, kid," and that was it. Robin just kinda shrugged and lay down.

 

For me it was a lesson in paying close attention to my BC in areas where there are other breeds of dogs. Each dog owner has a responsibility to ensure the safety of their dog, and those around them...something at which Mick's neighbors failed miserably. It's good to hear that Mick has recovered and both he and his owner no longer has to put up with those awful neighbors.

 

Liz

[sea4th]

I don't know quite how to phrase this so it would make sense. It's not so much a matter of Mick's eye, although I know all too well your points. These people are not dog savvy enough to read canine behavior. They noticed Mick's "eye" and his border collie body language when she first moved in there with Mick and her other dog. His owner would "break" the eye and refocus Mick or bring him inside. This was before the two dogs in question were even acquired by these neighbors. It was only since the AB and the aggressive mixed breed came to live next door, that Mick's owner would not allow her dogs out when the neighbor's dogs were out and bring them in when the neighbor dogs were let out. In fact, she, Mick's owner, suggested that some sort of mutual signal should be used by both of them to give an all clear signal/dogs out signal so problems could be avoided. They laughed it off, implying their dogs weren't a problem. The only reason they even mentioned Mick's staring was because they were grasping at straws to save their kiesters. They were caught in lies and realized it when a couple of witnesses could be produced that Mick was snoozing in the sun on a long line when he was attacked and that it was both dogs who each had a hold of Mick. Never once did they say "sorry" or ask how Mick was. They did, OTOH, begin to believe what they were telling everyone -- that Mick was the instigator, that only one dog, the mixed breed, attacked, and it's not because of their own ignorance/negligence that they were now being harassed by the AC, but all this came about because of Mick's owner, the spiteful, sh-tstirrer that she is. Fact is, Mick's owner was much too nice. I had to badger her to even take step one. Once she did take that first step to call AC, the rest came easier and she became a little more proactive. They reluctantly paid for Mick's vet bill. They couldn't afford the entire thing at once and asked if she's accept payments. She agreed to payments, but for each payment she'd have to go to them and ask. This, in their pea-sized brains, constituted spite and maliciouness. It got to the point that whenever she took one of her dogs out, she'd have a ballbat with her in case of another dog attack, but as she said, it was more to send them a message than anything else, although she was to the point that if either dog attacked her or one of her dogs, she'd use it. She couldn't see living like this, especially when the weather breaks and everyone comes out -- that and she was afraid that one of the "kids" (14, 19 & 20) might try to poison her own dogs.

 

But giving these people credit for reading dog behavior is giving them credit for too much sense.

 

I almost wish a human had been bitten. Now the legal repercussions of that might have done more than rattle their cage a little.

 

Hopefully, this will have been a rudimentary course for these idiots in controlling their dogs. There are a lot of kids and dogs in the neighborhood outside during the nice weather.

[Sue R]

I think there can be quite a "cultural" difference between breeds. My dogs don't seem comfortable around upright, flat-faced, big-eyed, "staring" breeds - like Boxers. Also in that "uncomfy" group are dogs like Briards (upright, staring, but with eyes covered somewhat with hair). Celt, in particular, is very uncomfortable around them but they do seem off-putting to all our dogs.

 

Yet, staring Border Collies are not an issue. Border Collies are not an issue, period. It's kind of like they are comfortable around "their own" or "their kind", and it always amazes me to watch a number of unfamiliar Border Collies, loose and playing or doing their dog business, and getting along just fine at a trial or clinic. And my dogs seem capable of "making friends" almost immediately with other Border Collies but not necessarily with dogs of other breeds.

 

Our old Rocket had been jumped by a very large GSD when he was working cattle back in NYS. For the rest of his life, he distrusted any GSD. When he was quite elderly and virtually blind, I watched him once react to a GSD-cross that he could not only see (being blind) but who was also on the other side of a hedge (and couldn't have been seen anyway, and who was unaware of Rocket resting beneath a bush). He scented that dog and reacted the same way he did to any GSD. I am convinced that he could tell, by scent, that it was part GSD.

[MicheleS.]

It sure sounds like it would be giving these people too much credit for being able to read dog behavior. Definitely grasping at straws.

 

I find this thread interesting and yet again am learning so much by reading what others have experienced. I realized a few months back that I needed to be careful at how and what I let Chase stare at. He's typically a dog that diverts his gaze in any kind of confrontation however, in agility class it's a different story. The other dogs taking their turn on the course are far too interesting for him and it became quite apparent to me that his gaze can be pretty intense. Chase was watching a little westie run the course and the tunnel was near where we were sitting. I didn't realize it at first but the westie popped out of the tunnel and started a hissy fit on Chase. Nothing happened, they never made contact but I knew right then that I really had to be aware of how and what Chase was looking at. It surprised me. Another incident happened with a brittany (who Chase also likes to watch run a course), she was making noise during a few minutes of downtime on our course so I guess Chase stared while I was listening to my instructor and not paying full attention to him. The brittany didn't like that and was offended and of course the brittany owner told me that they made eye contact. ugh! (For what it's worth, the westie is somewhat reactive because it was previously attacked and the brittany really isn't very social with other dogs.)

Initially I thought my sweet sensitive boy really isn't starting any trouble, he's just looking because it's interesting and fun and the other dogs are taking it the wrong way. He's naive and couldn't possibly know that his eye is causing problems. Sometimes I still think he's not doing it on purpose, it's a BC thing, right?

In any case, I'm still careful to watch him closely and try to divert his attention.

 

And most GSD's don't like Chase, or so it seems. We had one in our first obedience class that very much seemed like he wanted a piece of Chase. It was very uncomfortable for me and obviously for Chase. He was doing everything he could to steer clear of that dog. Not in that class anymore. To this day, he does a double take when he sees a GSD. It's a shame because he lived with one until last October.

[sweet_ceana]

I'm very sorry to hear of the out come to all of this. Maybe you guys could let the local paper know what happened so that they can get the info out there.

[ejano]

I don't know quite how to phrase this so it would make sense. It's not so much a matter of Mick's eye, although I know all too well your points. These people are not dog savvy enough to read canine behavior. They noticed Mick's "eye" and his border collie body language when she first moved in there with Mick and her other dog. His owner would "break" the eye and refocus Mick or bring him inside.

 

But giving these people credit for reading dog behavior is giving them credit for too much sense.

 

I almost wish a human had been bitten. Now the legal repercussions of that might have done more than rattle their cage a little.

 

Hopefully, this will have been a rudimentary course for these idiots in controlling their dogs. There are a lot of kids and dogs in the neighborhood outside during the nice weather.

 

Basically what the idiots were doing were putting all of the responsibility on Mick and not taking any responsibility for controlling their own dogs' innate behavior, who obviously took the chance when Mick wasn't looking to try to tear him apart. Sure, Bordie Collies have eye that may unnerve another dog (because they know the BC is smarter ) but in my experience, as others have noted, while they might give another dog the "eye", or just a long considering look, they are generally tolerant of other BCs and most other breeds unless they have been challenged by a particular breed. Sure, a Border Collie might react, but more often they'll give chase, not savage the other critter.

 

But the owner of a pit bull type breed that has a strong prey drive and is naturally reactive (if that's the right word) has a special responsibility to ensure that dog is under control and not just able to tear into any creature, dog, cat, or human that stares at him for that half second too long. This very unpredictability coupled with uneducated owners, or those who just plain want a mean dog creates intolerable situations for neighbors, the dogs themselves, and people who genuinely understand and like the breed.

 

Apologies to all for mounting a soap box - my observations are only aimed at backyard breeders of pit bull types who distribute them to people who have no business owning any type of dog, especially one that needs special handling and training as well as careful evaluation regarding any genetic traits that have been magnified by inbreeding and its unfortunate that these dogs in recent years have come to be identified with owners who are engaged in criminal activity and want a mean dog to protect their "assets" as well as engaging in dog fighting. Then some idiots like these neighbors come along and have no idea of what to do with what they have.

[ejano]

It sure sounds like it would be giving these people too much credit for being able to read dog behavior. Definitely grasping at straws.

 

I find this thread interesting and yet again am learning so much by reading what others have experienced. I realized a few months back that I needed to be careful at how and what I let Chase stare at. He's typically a dog that diverts his gaze in any kind of confrontation however, in agility class it's a different story. The other dogs taking their turn on the course are far too interesting for him and it became quite apparent to me that his gaze can be pretty intense. Chase was watching a little westie run the course and the tunnel was near where we were sitting. I didn't realize it at first but the westie popped out of the tunnel and started a hissy fit on Chase. Nothing happened, they never made contact but I knew right then that I really had to be aware of how and what Chase was looking at. It surprised me. Another incident happened with a brittany (who Chase also likes to watch run a course), she was making noise during a few minutes of downtime on our course so I guess Chase stared while I was listening to my instructor and not paying full attention to him. The brittany didn't like that and was offended and of course the brittany owner told me that they made eye contact. ugh! (For what it's worth, the westie is somewhat reactive because it was previously attacked and the brittany really isn't very social with other dogs.)

Initially I thought my sweet sensitive boy really isn't starting any trouble, he's just looking because it's interesting and fun and the other dogs are taking it the wrong way. He's naive and couldn't possibly know that his eye is causing problems. Sometimes I still think he's not doing it on purpose, it's a BC thing, right?

In any case, I'm still careful to watch him closely and try to divert his attention.

 

And most GSD's don't like Chase, or so it seems. We had one in our first obedience class that very much seemed like he wanted a piece of Chase. It was very uncomfortable for me and obviously for Chase. He was doing everything he could to steer clear of that dog. Not in that class anymore. To this day, he does a double take when he sees a GSD. It's a shame because he lived with one until last October.

 

A few weeks later, when the instructor finally caught on to Robin's "eye" she yelled at me for letting him look at a Yorkie that was acting like a Tasmanian devil all on its own without provocation and definitely was drawing attention from every dog around. She was trying to blame Robin for the dog's behavior when Robin was looking at the dog with a "What the h-- is that?" expression on his face. We're starting a rally class in a couple of weeks and I really wish there was another option for me...I feel like we're going out on a playground in elementary school with a target on our back, but Robin behaves pretty well now and I don't take any nonsense from the instructor, especially when I see how she handles her dog.