Advice needed, Brody is reverting to his old self.

[alligande]

A little background, we have had Brody for almost 2 years, he was 3.5 when we got him. At the time we had a 13 year old GSDx as well. Brody always had neurotic tendencies, I posted about him staring at Jester in a rude manner. In the 2 years we have had him he has blossomed into a great companion, listens well, competes in agility, just an all round good dog. In the 4 months he was an only dog he really seemed to blossom.

That was a month ago, then we got Rievaulx a 5 month old puppy, he is a great puppy and is not causing any problems. What is happening is Brody is playing head games with himself (the best way I can describe it) he is loosing his focus, and just seems to have reverted to the dog we got 2 years ago.

They play and run together really well, when other dogs are around they have started to become a pack. Brody spends all week days away from the puppy and has plenty of time with us when Rievaulx is crated.

We have no idea how to help him adapt and I am open to all advice, my husband wants his best friend back.

[IPSY]

It sounds like his world has been turned upside down ( in Brody's eyes ) He is confused about where he fits in now . Once the new puppy hits 8 months ,( or sooner ) there may be a little turfwar between the two.

Brody may never fully recover from the addition of the puppy , some dogs just dont accept newcomers easily. Since Brody had issues before , dont be surprised if you have to deal with them all over again. But how much can you really expect Brody to overcome ? That is a question you will only be able to answer if Brody seems to be having a real tough time excepting the newcomer.

I hate to even mention this , but can you except the chance you may not be able to keep the puppy ?

This may be a topic you might need to visit if things dont get better....

Keep Brody's world the same as the last couple of months before you added the new puppy.

Only take him to agility practice or for a car ride . Show him things will not change ( too much ) because of the puppy. But treat the two equally when together.

Brody enjoyed being the center of your world , and now he knows something has changed .

 

Spend a little extra time with him doing things Brody likes and DONT take the puppy out in front of him , have your husband play with Brody while you play with the puppy in another room so nobody feels left out.

He may come around in time and be back to his old self . The above advice is just that , advice. Im not looking to hurt your feelings , but I have seen friends bring home pups and their older dog has never accepted the newcomer , and they did rehome the puppy because the older dogs health was compromised . Just food for thought.

 

Good luck

[ErinKate]

And see, I look at it the other way, make them buddies. If you go for walks, walk them together. Get two tennis balls and play ball together. ( hold puppy's collar so he doesn' t get mowed down, and so he can't pester Brody) Show him the fun still happens with the puppy there. Keeping them playing seperate is not going to help them bond. The puppy is there, he needs to deal with it, not avoid it. Play is a social skill they both need to learn. You don' t want to deal with the same problem with the puppy as you are having with Brody. And don't be afraid to let Brody correct the puppy either.

Be careful and good luck.

[IPSY]

I do agree withletting Brody correct the puppy ( be watchful it doesnt get too rough ). I wouldnt want them to be kept separate , but in the beginning , I would want Brody to know he is still your best buddy , no matter what. Then , in time , let them go for walks together and play again.

It was mentioned that they do play nicely , its just that Brody was regressing back to his prior issues. I feel terrible for Brody. maybe you and your husband can both play with puppy and Brody together and see if there is any problems there. If not , Brody needs to work on some focus games that keep him onthe ball. Liek set up a couple of jumps and have one person hold him by the collar and the other person at the end of the jumps call him then play tug or whatever is his favorite . And do it multiple times in both directions . Then throw in a tunnel if he likes doing them. Keep him thinking but make it really fast and fun so as not to give him time to think about anything else.

And by having both his favorite people playing this game , there could be nothing better

[alligande]

Thanks for the advice, IPSY we already have been talking about not been able to keep the puppy. That is a decision I would like to make sooner than latter, the puppy is going to be "my" dog as Brody is very bonded to my husband. This has already started to happen and I would hate to give him up after a couple of months as he is a very cool puppy, right now would be hard.

We have basically being doing every thing suggested already, very little has changed in Brods life, He goes to work with my husband (on his own) does agility with me, despite every one at agility wanting to meet the new guy he has not gone. Brody gets fed first, he gets cuddle and training time when the puppy is crated. We allow Brody to correct Rievaulx when he is being a stupid puppy, we intervene when it crosses over to bullying (which has happened only a few times).

The frustrating part of this is that Brody is very into playing with other dogs which is why we thought he would enjoy a friend. On walks when they are off leash they have a great time, in the garden and house, playing wrestling or collie races, they both have big stupid happy faces.

I am basically keeping my fingers crossed that we can work through this and Brody returns to being a great dog, and not a twitchy one.

[Donald McCaig]

Dear Dog Owners,

I must have missed something here. What's the problem?

 

Donald McCaig

[alligande]

Dear Dog Owners,

I must have missed something here. What's the problem?

 

Donald McCaig

 

In the first post I said that Brody had returned to being the dog we had adopted 2 years ago, which is slightly neurotic and twitchy, he is not an extreme case but he had become such a great dog that it is sad to see him reverting to his odd behavior.

[Root Beer]

In the first post I said that Brody had returned to being the dog we had adopted 2 years ago, which is slightly neurotic and twitchy, he is not an extreme case but he had become such a great dog that it is sad to see him reverting to his odd behavior.

 

Big changes can have big effects on some dogs. Some are affected by moving, by loss of another dog in the household, addition of a new dog to the household, addition of a baby to the household, etc. And often those sorts of things cause the dog to "revert" to a former mindset. Not all dogs are sensitive to such things, but some are.

 

My inclination is to suggest that you give Brody more time. I would absolutely make sure he has both one on one time with his humans, and good quality time with the puppy and all of you together. The longer the puppy is with you, the more routine that is going to become.

 

Also, the dynamic will most likely change again when the puppy grows up and Brody is now living with an adolescent, not a puppy, and then another adult dog, not an adolescent, so be prepared for some possible effects on Brody when those transitions are happening, as well.

 

On a personal note - it is very difficult to watch a dog who was doing well revert back to a more nervous state of mind. You want to help, but often there really is nothing that you can do to get the dog back to the better place. I've found that time usually does help.

[IPSY]

Im sure , in time , things will settle down with Brody . You have been thru enough turmoil ,

alligande. Im so sorry you and Brody are going thru this . But again , given enough time ,these things settle down and take care of themselves . Some dogs just need TIME to adjust , others dont miss a beat when something new is added to their environment.

Breathe , relax , enjoy your dogs.

[Donald McCaig]

Yes, I read that. "Neurotic" how? "Twitchy", how? Details, please.

Donald McCaig

[bcnewe2]

To me it sounds like Bordy is "packing up" with the new dog.

If I take my "pack" of dogs outside for a romp or walk, I am really just a bystander. Sure I can call them all off each other and they will return to me but they are all about themselves, not me. They might seem a bit more hyper becuase they are doing what comes naturally to them and not paying attention to me. I wouldn't even waste my time trying to make them behave a certain way unless it was called for. As long as I can get the last word or recall is not suffering I figure they're letting their hair down or burning off extra energy. Rather be with their pack mates than in my house or on me.

 

Not the same if I take one dog out to work with him or her. Even a walk alone is "work" with me. Then they become "my" dog. If strange dogs come around they are not interested in what's going on around them, they are into what "we" are doing.

 

I have no problem that they are a pack of dogs when together. I'd rather have that than all of them hounding me for what to do.

 

My suggestion would be to make sure your DH and yourself have enough alone time (which sounds like you do) with both dogs so the human/dog bonding continues to grow.

Now I may have missed something...why are you thinking of getting rid of the new puppy? New dog are always going to take some time to get into the flow of things for everyone. I hate getting a new dog (ok I love getting puppies) I like them after about 3-6 months when they feel like old shoes instead of new ones that have to be broken in. Puppies on the other hand take a year or so to grow and get into the reg. flow. But I like that particular type confusion.

[alligande]

It is hard to describe Brodys behavior with out being very long winded. Some of the basic reactions are: having a nice pet, all relaxed he then hears the puppy move, bolts upright head vibrates and he charges off. Puppy approaches and Brods just gets uptight and his head vibrates. He has jumped out of my husbands lap in what looks like a panic attack on hearing the puppy in his crate. While writing this a panic attack is a good description, once we can get eye contact again, we can give him a command like sit and he gets his focus back and will start to relax. Reverting back is not just happening when Rievaulx is around, husband reports that he gets like this when they are at work.

 

The only reason I mentioned getting rid of the puppy is that we strongly feel that the dog in residence is our priority, and if he is not going to enjoy having him around it defeats the purpose of 2 dogs. It is also a decision I would want to make sooner than later as I am getting very fond of the little chap. He seems to be really comfortable and could not have fitted in any better, he is just a great young man who thinks Brody is just the best thing. Sad to say it but the new dog is a pleasure to be around, and is no fuss, Brody on the other hand is requiring a lot of time and reinforcement which is fine we just hope that he will relax eventually. And I was interested in what other peoples experiences had been, I know in large multi dog households this might not seem a big problem, but our dogs are companions first and we just don't like seeing one of them unhappy.

 

We have no problem with them being dogs, and having their own games and enjoyment, and have no desire to get involved. There are never problems during playtime, it is during down time that Brody gets jumpy.

[Root Beer]

It is hard to describe Brodys behavior with out being very long winded. Some of the basic reactions are: having a nice pet, all relaxed he then hears the puppy move, bolts upright head vibrates and he charges off. Puppy approaches and Brods just gets uptight and his head vibrates. He has jumped out of my husbands lap in what looks like a panic attack on hearing the puppy in his crate. While writing this a panic attack is a good description, once we can get eye contact again, we can give him a command like sit and he gets his focus back and will start to relax. Reverting back is not just happening when Rievaulx is around, husband reports that he gets like this when they are at work.

 

What happens if you don't give him a sit cue or ask for eye contact? Will he eventually snap himself out of it?

[bcnewe2]

I don't think I'm understanding.

Is he acting freaked out when he hears a noise? And if he's doing it at DH's work, can you really say it's from the puppy? Is he frantic, or excited?

Yes, what happens when a "panic attack" goes unchecked by you?

Are you really meaning vibrating? 2 of my dogs are active working dogs (they live in the house and are companions as much as working dogs) I have seen them truely vibrate when about to work sheep or watching something really exciting happening with sheep. Once in a while one of them might vibrate a bit with antisipation for a toy (like throw the darn ball PLEASE) But I wouldn't describe that as a panic attack, extreme focus is what I'd probably call it. It when they actually "trimble"

 

Does Brody like the puppy all the time?

 

Sorry..I'm not understanding exactly.

 

We have a big multi dog home (small compared to some on the boards) I am just as much concerned for each dog's happiness as a single or 2 dog family. Just saying...

[Withzia]

It is hard to describe Brodys behavior with out being very long winded. Some of the basic reactions are: having a nice pet, all relaxed he then hears the puppy move, bolts upright head vibrates and he charges off. Puppy approaches and Brods just gets uptight and his head vibrates. He has jumped out of my husbands lap in what looks like a panic attack on hearing the puppy in his crate. While writing this a panic attack is a good description, once we can get eye contact again, we can give him a command like sit and he gets his focus back and will start to relax. Reverting back is not just happening when Rievaulx is around, husband reports that he gets like this when they are at work.

 

So is this pretty much how Brody was when you first brought him into your home? I think that the more similarities you see between this behavior and his behavior when he first came into your home the less I'd worry. Is it possible that this is just how he reacts to a new situation? He might always have do this when his world is shaken up, and it might always take him a while to calm down and accept the new situation. How long did he act like this when you first got him and how long has it been since the puppy arrived?

[Ooky]

The only reason I mentioned getting rid of the puppy is that we strongly feel that the dog in residence is our priority, and if he is not going to enjoy having him around it defeats the purpose of 2 dogs.

 

I agree about feeling loyal to your current dog and putting him first, but also, I think the ultimate "purpose" of having 2 dogs is because YOU want two dogs. Even if he only tolerates the other dog I don't think it should defeat the purpose, as long as he is not completely miserable with no hope of adjusting!

 

I've never introduced a new dog, so take this witha grain of salt. But I've introduced other pets and had the current pet not be entirely thrilled. On one hand, I went out of my way to help them adjust, but on the other hand, they did not dictate wheher I was allowed to keep a new pet, if that makes sense. IF you've got fighting or real issues that are making all pets and peopel miserable, that's one thing. But an adjustment period is different.

[Donald McCaig]

Dear Ms. Alligande,

I trust you will patient with this geezer. It's hard to understand when I haven't seen the dog(s) and owners.

 

Brody "vibrates":

I have seen Border Collies "vibrate" with:

(a) Fear/timidity

( Excitement ("I'm going for a walk!!!!!!!")

© Repressed desire ("I'm going to work sheep!")

(d) A Petit Mal seizure.

(e) Startle ("What was that noise!")

 

How would you characterize Brody's "vibrate?"

 

Does Brady exhibit other objectionable behaviors attributable to the new pup?

 

Donald McCaig

[alligande]

Thanks for everyones input, let me try and answer the questions.

 

What happens if you don't give him a sit cue or ask for eye contact? Will he eventually snap himself out of it?

 

He does get over it, it usually ends by him lying down staring at Rievaulx, then if something more interesting happens that will get his focus.

 

Is he acting freaked out when he hears a noise? And if he's doing it at DH's work, can you really say it's from the puppy? Is he frantic, or excited?

Yes, what happens when a "panic attack" goes unchecked by you?

 

He does not freak when he hears any noise, only if the puppy make a noise and gets his attention. When he is with my husband away from the puppy it is overall behavior that has slipped, he is not always the focused dog he has become.

 

His head vibrates just like when he has an alert barking session if someone rings the doorbell. We have learned to manage this, by calling him to us and telling him "of duty" it seems like once we reconize the situation he stops bothering about it.

 

We have a big multi dog home (small compared to some on the boards) I am just as much concerned for each dog's happiness as a single or 2 dog family. Just saying...

 

I meant know insult, it is just that most people I know with multi dog households are a little less bothered by small changes, and in the big picture Brodys behavior is not that bad, just a little weird.

 

So is this pretty much how Brody was when you first brought him into your home? I think that the more similarities you see between this behavior and his behavior when he first came into your home the less I'd worry. Is it possible that this is just how he reacts to a new situation? He might always have do this when his world is shaken up, and it might always take him a while to calm down and accept the new situation. How long did he act like this when you first got him and how long has it been since the puppy arrived?

 

Brody used to be very unfocused, three throws of a ball or frisbee and we were done, his first owners had taken him to obedience, but had not used his mind. Now he will spent 10 minutes hunting a missing ball if we tell him to look for it.

 

He changed over time, we have credited agility, regular training, and just high expectations to his change.

 

We have taken him to all lots of new situations, sleep overs etc and he is fine, a little cautious but adapts quickly.

 

Puppy has been here a month, we have good days and bad, but over the last week we have had more bad.

 

Dear Ms. Alligande,

I trust you will patient with this geezer. It's hard to understand when I haven't seen the dog(s) and owners.

 

Brody "vibrates":

I have seen Border Collies "vibrate" with:

(a) Fear/timidity

( Excitement ("I'm going for a walk!!!!!!!")

© Repressed desire ("I'm going to work sheep!")

(d) A Petit Mal seizure.

(e) Startle ("What was that noise!")

 

How would you characterize Brody's "vibrate?"

 

Does Brady exhibit other objectionable behaviors attributable to the new pup?

 

Donald McCaig

 

No worries with the questions, it is hard to describe his behavior fully.

 

He charges around the dining table poking at the puppy until we intervene or he gives up and just stares at him.

 

He will lie and stare at the puppy in his crate or when he is playing with a toy.

 

And is just not as relaxed as he was. Just more uptight and reactive.

 

He is a mildly reactive dog, he used to fear guard the trucks, but that has stopped.

At agility he will charge and bark at the dogs on the course. This only happens at agility, he can be in the truck or on a leash and a dog can run by and he is not bothered.

 

He is still a good dog and we spend lots of time focusing on him, when we pet Rievaulx we make him join in, not charge away and watch from a distance, once in the group he is fine.

 

Basically I am keeping my fingers crossed that he accepts his new housemate and starts to relax.

[Donald McCaig]

Dear Ms. Allegande,

Thanks for your detailed reply. It helped enrich the picture. You wrote" He charges around the dining table poking at the puppy until we intervene or he gives up and just stares at him."

 

How does the puppy react to this? Indifference? Mild annoyance? Fear? Confusion? Enjoyment? Other?

 

 

 

And you wrote: "when we pet Rievaulx we make him join in . . ."

 

There are very few training/dog handling absolutes but this one is close: It is a bad idea to pet two dogs at the same time. Yes, you can force the issue if you must but when the top dog favors two underdogs simultaneously it violates canine protocol and invites trouble.

 

 

 

Donald McCaig

[Root Beer]

He does get over it, it usually ends by him lying down staring at Rievaulx, then if something more interesting happens that will get his focus.

 

In that case, I definitely recommend the idea that I PM'ed you.

[MaggieDog]

Maggie was rather subdued when she realized Kes was staying last year. I was quite worried about it, but each week brings more and more signs of her acceptance of him. Just this week (month 11 with Kes, month 7 as a permanent member vs foster!!) Maggie has switched to normal play instead of play that can escalate into snarking/blustering behavior. It probably took her 2 months to accept that he wasn't leaving but that she was still well loved and that was ok, she just was a little less tolerant of his behavior for several months after that, and now we're settling into a good routine. Kes was 4mo when he came home and is just about 15 months now, so his maturation also has a lot to do with this change as well.

 

You could consider trying the Comfort Zone for Dogs (aka DAP) diffuser to see if that takes the nervousness down a notch - can't hurt and might help.

[alligande]

Thank you everyone for taking the time to respond, I am hoping that time will make this work, and that we were on the right track.

 

Dear Ms. Allegande,

Thanks for your detailed reply. It helped enrich the picture. You wrote" He charges around the dining table poking at the puppy until we intervene or he gives up and just stares at him."

 

How does the puppy react to this? Indifference? Mild annoyance? Fear? Confusion? Enjoyment? Other?

 

The puppy either responds with indifference if there is a human present, or takes it as the beginning of a wrestling session. If they start to wrestle both dogs play nicely, or Brody if he does not want to play will back away and stare at Rievaulx. The puppy then does his own thing.

 

And you wrote: "when we pet Rievaulx we make him join in . . ."

 

There are very few training/dog handling absolutes but this one is close: It is a bad idea to pet two dogs at the same time. Yes, you can force the issue if you must but when the top dog favors two underdogs simultaneously it violates canine protocol and invites trouble.

Donald McCaig

I am curious about this, why can you not pet both dogs together, this is something we have always done. Oddly it works well, Brody will be doing his circle and poke routine, paying no attention, if we ask him to join us we will sit and relax even with the puppy leaning on him. If we pet just the puppy, he will do his circle and poke routine, if we pet just Brody he does not relax, and is looking for the puppy the whole time and he will take of very quickly to go bother the puppy.