Color Genetic question

[juliepoudrier]

Dam!, and I could have used a prize!

 

I really don't understand the complaint about "not having good breeders" in close proximity. It's not hard to go to another province--or even to the northeastern US--to find good working dogs. Some of the bloodlines Amanda listed for her dogs (in another thread) come from Ontario, where I know for a fact there are a few good working dog breeders. I don't think not having a good working breeder in your locality is an acceptable excuse to breed one's own dogs, especially if one is not working one's dogs and determining that they are indeed suitable for breeding as working dogs.

 

And for the record when Moth's breeder starts doing herding lessons, I'm there with my pups, I do want them to do what they were bred to do, I love seeing them in their element. When I see them do what they are bred to do, it really does put me in awe, the instinct is really crazy to watch. Certainly if it was more readily available here I would be all over it. But I'm not prepared to go to an unethical breeders farm to do so.

 

I understand not wanting to have anything to do with folks whose ethics don't mesh with your own--it's certainly the reason I choose not to trial at particular farms and why I wouldn't buy pups from certain breeders/handlers. But if you are truly in awe of what these dogs can do, then why would you want to breed dogs who are not proven as superior working dogs? That's the crux of this whole argument, and it comes up time and again: the potential breeder claims that his/her dogs could be great working dogs, but you know since there's really not a great call for working dogs, then why not breed for something else anyway?

 

I just wish (in my Pollyanna world) that folks who want to breed would look at, say, conformation-bred dogs, and *realize* what breeding for something other than excelling at the actual purpose of the breed leads to drift that eventually creates a breed that is not the same as the one they purport to love for its working ability, and all that means for sports, etc. It's already happening. I get dogs out here to start on stock who were bred for sports or conformation (or just plain randomly), and *most of the time* they are lacking some crucial piece of the puzzle, meaning that they will never become superior working dogs. But their owners, all starry-eyed, will take the fact that I was able to get their dog to go around sheep 50 feet or 25 yards away and fetch them to me as *evidence* that the working ability remains. Sad, sad, sad.

 

J.

[mum24dog]

I get dogs out here to start on stock who were bred for sports or conformation (or just plain randomly), and *most of the time* they are lacking some crucial piece of the puzzle, meaning that they will never become superior working dogs. But their owners, all starry-eyed, will take the fact that I was able to get their dog to go around sheep 50 feet or 25 yards away and fetch them to me as *evidence* that the working ability remains. Sad, sad, sad.

 

J.

 

The capacity for self delusion is immense, isn't it?

 

Pam

[stockdogranch]

I get dogs out here to start on stock who were bred for sports or conformation (or just plain randomly), and *most of the time* they are lacking some crucial piece of the puzzle, meaning that they will never become superior working dogs. But their owners, all starry-eyed, will take the fact that I was able to get their dog to go around sheep 50 feet or 25 yards away and fetch them to me as *evidence* that the working ability remains.

Hah! At least the ones you get can/will kind of go round the sheep! I get way too many out here who won't even look at the sheep. Must be because Ca is always on the leading edge of whatever the trend is; in this case, it's the trend to breed crap and call it a border collie. Probably the majority I get out here are the "randomly" bred (read: byb), and they won't ever become even "mediocre" piss- poor working dogs, let alone "superior." And the people are so amazed that Fluffy really isn't interested in the sheep, since s/he "herds" the cat, kids on bicycles, the vacuum cleaner, etc., all the time at home. So, if I come off as jaded or cynical about breeding the "versatile border collie," yup--I am, 'cuz I've seen a bunch of 'em,

A

[Smokjbc]

This is a tale of several dogs that I think Amanda would benefit from.

 

I live in Las Vegas, Nevada which has zero commercial agriculture. The nearest ranches are about 2 hours away and they are mostly cattle, the nearest significant sheep flock is probably four hours away, near Lund. The owners of Border Collies in this area usually get them from three sources: rescue, horse people/backyard breeders, and sports people. When people ask me where to get a border collie pup, the first thing out of my mouth is "DO NOT buy one from anyone here."

 

There are four people in the entire area that own sheep or trial/used to trial. I am the only person within an hours drive that's entered any USBCHA trial. There is one other person who was an Open handler but he's no longer very active. The other two are AKC/AHBA only. None of us are active breeders of dogs, last litter I bred was 10 years ago.

 

Because I am one of the only people with experience in the area, I do allow people to come out and work their dogs. There is a local horse trainer here that pumps out litters out of an ok (I've worked her many times) imported bitch and they used a merle dog they bought from a Texas fellow horse person. As a horsey-type person myself, I can say unequivocally that many are among the worst backyard breeders there are. This trainer, in particular, you can count on seeing his classified ad in the paper every six months advertising rare merle "WORKING" pups. Now the bitch is keen to work and one of her pups, ONE, was a fair dog. A little too wide running for my taste and not the bravest girl, but biddable and nice. As a result of meeting the nice one's owner, she had the trainer come out with his dogs so we could take a look at all of them. Pretty dogs- mostly smooth coated, merle dogs. I worked both parents of these dogs, both worked "ok" but they were also older so they may have been better than they appeared to be, and then worked about half a dozen of their pups. ONE other pup showed any interest at all. ONE. And she would run for the gate the first time you said "boo" to her. They finally retired the imported bitch from breeding, now they just breed one pink colored dog- who IIRC was the least interested in the sheep- we could not even get her to LOOK at them. Now, they have probably sold at least 40-50 pups to people who think they have working bred dogs. Does that make them working bred? NO.

 

On the sports side- since that is another significant source of border collies in the area- I've also had several border collies out. The story is almost always the same, they spent $1000 on the pup, they have "champion" flyball or agility lines (and papers in tow) and the dog is such a PITA to live with, they thought "herding" would be a good outlet. Well, it might if they actually wanted to do it. I've had exactly one of these dogs want to do more than chase, and he was so hard to live with, his owner was considering getting rid of him. He was actually a pretty biddable dog, not super talented but keen and nice. Unfortunately, he began having severe seizures and they had to quit working him.

 

What are the best dogs, so far, that I've had come out? Surprisingly, there's been only one that came from a well known, Open handler breeder and she's quite nice. She just started, but she should be one of the better ones. The other two that come to mind were actually all rescues. One was found in the middle of the desert near Tonopah, I think he probably a cowboy's dog- he showed signs of being worked before. His owner was a biologist that found him when she was out there, and not only was he a very nice working dog, he also became a star agility dog- beating some of those $1000 pups . The other, a year old bitch that just started with me, is a perfect beginners dog- strong on the head, very sweet, talented and biddable. She was rescued in Montana- they found her and her littermates dumped out on the range as coyote bait, most likely by a rancher.

 

The point is that it's early and I've had too much coffee... No, seriously- that those rescue dogs were at least fairly close to working lines; even if they were not well-bred they still outperformed, on sheep, dogs that were purposely bred for the wrong reasons. Agility, flyball, frisbee- most of my exclusively working bred dogs can easily do these things. But the same is not true for working sheep. It's easy to look around your own area- believe me, if I had to judge "working dogs" on what passes for that here- I'd have an extremely poor opinion of them. Luckily, I got started right and was able to spot the BS pretty early on and learned to look outside my area to see what the border collie was really about.

 

Before you breed your dogs, Amanda, I suggest that you do the same.

[mum24dog]

I hope hobby herding doesn't catch on in a big way here as it seems to be causing you a headache. But maybe it wouldn't be too bad if those who tried it did so because they already had a dog from working lines and then took advice from their trainer where to get subsequent dogs. The old lady I knew who took it up had 2 decent dogs to start with and then was given (or sold cheap) 3 more trained or part trained dogs to trial with. She loved it.

 

I know of only one person who is thinking of taking lessons with her Welsh Sheepdog pup when she's old enough. She has very practical reasons - she works as a gardener/wildlife photographer and is out and about among sheep all the time. You can't turn round without finding sheep under your nose here and her pup is showing a worrying amount of interest so she thought she'd try to put it under control rather than suppress it. She's already discussed it with Thomas Longton who can give her lessons.

 

We were discussing why people don't do much hobby herding in this area when there would be ample opportunity and have come to the conclusion that most people do make a clear distinction between dogs that work and those that don't, and those that don't are best encouraged to ignore sheep or they could end up dead.

 

Pam

[Ooky]

What happens in 20 years with this breed if they haven't evolved (a bit - not show ring - just to clarify)? Sure there will be die hard farmers who use dogs to do the job, but likely there will be a more efficient mechanical way to do things and that will be how herding is done. Then what? The breed dies out?

 

my bold

 

I think this is a very naiive statement that shows you don't understand much about what is involved in dealing with livestock, or what a real working border collie can do. I work in a very new field, one of the components of which is using grazing to manage rangelands specifically for the benefit of certain habitat conditions or even for certain rare or special status species protected by law. This may be for parks, or it may be for "mitigation" for impacts that development or other activities have wrought elsewhere. In such cases, I often have to deal with a laundry list of suitable conditions that will involve a lot of short-term rotational grazing; that is, moving the stock around. This is a growing field that will only get bigger based on US laws such as CEQA in CA and the federal Endangered Species Act. I have a PhD and work in a very competitive, cutting edge field of ecology to do this.

 

There may be some ranchers and grazing lesees who think that using ATVs is the only way to do it, and by and large they are the ones telling me you can't possibly move the stock more than a few times a year or whatever, as it is too much work. These are people who do not understand what a good dog can do. There is NO high tech answer such as you allude to that I have seen, because the problem is low tech at its very core.

 

As long as we manage grazing of our rangelands, which I don't see stopping anytime soon, there IS a need for these dogs, whether you think so or not based on what you've seen.

[jdarling]

I see Drama is bred by Riverglen Farm, and I can't find it now, but it was either on that blog or on the puppy blog that she mentioned going to somebody's place and working dogs or something. Could she maybe refer you to someone in your area?

 

I can't find much information about Moth ... is this his breeder's website? I know that you mention on Moth's Dogster Page that his breeder is someone you train flyball with, and on their webpage, I see training for agility, dock dogs, and disc dogs ... but do they work their dogs on livestock? From one of your posts, it's sounds like they might be offering up stockdog lessons soon? Could they possibly refer you to a trainer in the meantime? Where were the photos of Moth taken that you posted? Is that farm near you?

 

Being that you bought pups from both of these breeders, I think it's probably safe to go out on a limb and say that you probably feel that these two breeders are reputable and responsible. What do you feel is irresponsible breeding?

 

Another idea (and maybe it was already mentioned?) ... why not contact the people from the NEBCA (gorgeous website, by the way!) and see if they know of anyone in your area.

[mum24dog]

I think it's very hard for someone who mixes in circles where a certain practice has been going on so long and so often to step back and see the bigger picture.

 

I can draw a parallel with the BC situation that is in its early days here in the UK.

 

Until recently the working cocker was a well kept secret from the general public, being reserved for those who shoot.

I don't know if you have them over there - they can be registered here on the breed register as a CS but would never win any prizes in the show ring. They vary in size and build but are more athletic and lighter coated than the stumpy and long haired show dogs.

 

Inevitably they came to the notice of the agility world and are very successful.

 

First dogs were bought from working breeders because that was the only place they could be found.

 

Now, however, the practice is creeping in of breeding from two agility cockers. They may both have originally been bought from a breeder of working dogs which may sound fine to some, but of course the only way they have been tested is in the agility ring.

 

How many generations down the line do you have to go before you drop the pretence that the pups produced are from working lines? How many generations before that section of the breed has been so adulterated by non working breeding that it no longer displays the characteristics that made it attractive in the first place?

 

I expect that sport bred red merle I mentioned above will have Wiston Cap in its pedigree somewhere but it doesn't make it a working dog.

 

It all becomes very clear when you can see the process starting to happen before your very eyes.

 

Pam

[AmandaMJL]

I see Drama is bred by Riverglen Farm, and I can't find it now, but it was either on that blog or on the puppy blog that she mentioned going to somebody's place and working dogs or something. Could she maybe refer you to someone in your area?

 

I can't find much information about Moth ... is this his breeder's website? I know that you mention on Moth's Dogster Page that his breeder is someone you train flyball with, and on their webpage, I see training for agility, dock dogs, and disc dogs ... but do they work their dogs on livestock? From one of your posts, it's sounds like they might be offering up stockdog lessons soon? Could they possibly refer you to a trainer in the meantime? Where were the photos of Moth taken that you posted? Is that farm near you?

 

Being that you bought pups from both of these breeders, I think it's probably safe to go out on a limb and say that you probably feel that these two breeders are reputable and responsible. What do you feel is irresponsible breeding?

 

Another idea (and maybe it was already mentioned?) ... why not contact the people from the NEBCA (gorgeous website, by the way!) and see if they know of anyone in your area.

 

My apologies as I don't know how to multi-quote... (anyone care to PM me how to do that?! Thanks!) So I will try to remember to answer all that I remember reading!

 

Holy crap, Dogster! I haven't seen those pages in a good year! Funny to see the pups old pics!

 

Moth's breeder has a farm uses his dogs there, yes, not sure how often etc. He is however getting set up to teach, and hopefully will start in the spring and I've already signed up!

 

I have gone to Hilary's a few times, in fact I worked with Sue Jewell there and Kate Broadbent. That said Hilary doesn't offer any formal lessons, she has a lady there that has done lessons but it's not a steady thing. Hilary's farm is gorgeous, and Hilary is a very nice lady.

 

I have been to Roy's to herd....

 

I do hope you are correct that in 20 years time that there are still as many people using BCs as they should be, I really do. But I also know that we are in a century of luxury and ease as well, and times are changing, like it or not.

 

What do I consider responsible breeding? I think I've answered that over several posts (and YES the people I got these dogs from I do find reputable or else I wouldn't have bought them), however I will try to sum it up again. Responsible breeding to me is (and in no particular order) making sure the dog and their lines are sound in health (mental/physical), work ability, finding out where their pups are going to - not just limited to a contract, I mean you drill and get references on the places the pups are going, you have a spay/neuter contract AND follow up on it to ensure it has happened, make sure you match the right dog to the right home, you help in the animal rescue world because if you breed it you should also help rescue it!, you aren't breeding to make a living, and I could go on and on.

 

I *think* I've summed up all the questions asked of me...?

[AmandaMJL]

Oh photos of Moth - when he was a puppy that is at his breeders farm, and the other one was taken at Hilary Flowers, I believe when he was working with Kate. I can't go in the ring, I'm a freaking disaster LOL!!!!

 

edited to add - for the record I've never paid $1,000 for ANY of my dogs!

[jdarling]

Thanks, Amanda. Actually what I asked is what you consider IRresponsible breeding, but that's ok ... I think we can assume the opposite of what you feel is responsible.

 

What do you mean by "work ability"?