AmandaMJL Posted February 11, 2010 Report Share Posted February 11, 2010 So, on many points, we do agree. Not all, though. Agreed! I like these kind of debates and I look forward to learning and meeting more of you on this forum! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stockdogranch Posted February 11, 2010 Report Share Posted February 11, 2010 So many dogs with great working lines have horrible temperments and that is a huge beef with me. Gee, that's a pretty blanket statement (aka a sweeping generalization), from one who is, admittedly, "a very green member" of the working border collie community. Perhaps you've not really "met" enough real working-bred border collies to support that statement. I've seen lots of nut-jobs, temperament-wise, out there going by the name of "border collie," but those were all pretty much sport bred, or just plain crappy breeding of two dogs "from working lines" (which is nothing like a well-bred working border collie). A Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sue R Posted February 11, 2010 Report Share Posted February 11, 2010 Amen, Anna! Except that "very green member" was another person's description of themself. What you wrote (as always, succinctly) was quite what I was trying to say about there being bad breeders/breedings by so-called working dog people, too, as well as all the non-working breeders of one sort or another. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mum24dog Posted February 11, 2010 Report Share Posted February 11, 2010 Thank you, Pam. I think a lot of the issue is in our different backgrounds and cultures. Over here, many more people regard the "Border Collie" as the dog they see either in a dog show or doing agility or other dogs sports. The dog out working on the farm or ranch, or in a trial, is not the dog they realize is the Border Collie. In UK, I believe it is a very different matter in that most people are aware of the difference. I think further south in the more highly populated areas you'd probably encounter more ignorance (and more inclination to go for the flashy colours) but a lot of the country is very near working farms where pups can be picked up for a song. Not necessarily great workers but not chocolate box types. I'm proud of the fact that we have very few sport bred dogs in our agility club, and those we do have certainly don't outshine the rest that are either direct from working lines or have made a detour via rescue. We're lucky though in that we don't have anyone who breeds BCs in the club. That would no doubt make a difference. I know of at least one woman UK breeder who is popular with sports folks for she not only takes stud fees for breeding to sport bitches, but she also breeds for colors and sells lots of pups, primarily to sport folks but also to "hobby herders". She's claiming "working-bred" but taking money from both sides of the table without a qualm. Like you, I don't agree but I do see your point. Kennel name doesn't begin with A does it? Pam Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sue R Posted February 12, 2010 Report Share Posted February 12, 2010 Kennel name doesn't begin with A does it? Pam How'd you guess? I don't think she's the only one but she certainly "stands out". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
juliepoudrier Posted February 12, 2010 Report Share Posted February 12, 2010 Gee, that's a pretty blanket statement (aka a sweeping generalization), from one who is, admittedly, "a very green member" of the working border collie community. Perhaps you've not really "met" enough real working-bred border collies to support that statement. I've seen lots of nut-jobs, temperament-wise, out there going by the name of "border collie," but those were all pretty much sport bred, or just plain crappy breeding of two dogs "from working lines" (which is nothing like a well-bred working border collie). A ^^ Exactly, Anna. Amanda, I'd really like to know how many true working-bred dogs you've actually met to make such a sweeping statement about the temperaments of working dogs. The one dog (out of 10) I own who has temperament issues is a poorly bred dog, bought for his lovely red color, who probably would have been PTS if I hadn't taken him in (thanks to my vet begging me because his owner couldn't handle him) and managed him for the past 10 years. It's fine for you to have your own beliefs about breeding, but please spare us the comments that have no real basis in fact. J. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DeltaBluez Tess Posted February 12, 2010 Author Report Share Posted February 12, 2010 >>So many dogs with great working lines have horrible temperments and that is a huge beef with me.<<< My Tess takes great offense at that statment!! Diane Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AmandaMJL Posted February 12, 2010 Report Share Posted February 12, 2010 No offense meant to anyone on this board. I'm talking about what alot of the working lines here are in the maritimes. Registered kennels who do have nice dogs but place inappropriately and do not follow up on where their dogs are. Working wise should they be lucky enough to go to a working home, they are great! However, that is sadly not the case. There are some fantastic working breeders here too - but again, sadly they are far and few between. >>So many dogs with great working lines have horrible temperments and that is a huge beef with me.<<< - that comment was made as a comment and not directed at anyone here. My apologies that you took it that way. *sigh* Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AmandaMJL Posted February 12, 2010 Report Share Posted February 12, 2010 It's fine for you to have your own beliefs about breeding, but please spare us the comments that have no real basis in fact. J. Come to the Maritimes ANYTIME and I'll show you around what we have for what I consider good working lines. Have you ever been here? Do you know anything about what we are seeing here? So before you judge me and my beliefs, maybe you should learn what we have available here - registered too. I THOUGHT I was in an adult debate, no? So why don't you spare me the comments about what I have seen over the years in our maritime provinces. Geesh. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AmandaMJL Posted February 12, 2010 Report Share Posted February 12, 2010 The OP, who is a working dog person, asked the original question about color genetics and got lots of good replies to that question. The working question came up only when Amanda mentioned that she wanted to breed her dogs and hoped to get red and made it fairly clear that she was not working her dogs to any great extent. Actually that is not true. If you go back, the OP asked about color and someone posted and asked how the dog worked or something along those lines, that was BEFORE I posted. Find me somewhere reputable to work my dogs frequently in NS and I will gladly go! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AmandaMJL Posted February 12, 2010 Report Share Posted February 12, 2010 >>So many dogs with great working lines have horrible temperments and that is a huge beef with me.<<< My Tess takes great offense at that statment!! Diane Is your Tess related to Nat's BC? I have been watching what she's been doing with her boy and he's looking great! FYI - my statement is based on what is available here where I live. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AmandaMJL Posted February 12, 2010 Report Share Posted February 12, 2010 I guess to put it simply I find it rather upsetting that based on coat color etc that a BC is judged. I absolutely see a need for the working BC, as with any of the dog breeds, they were bred for a purpose! However, times have changed and I think it's great to give these dogs different jobs that they too will excel at. Sadly there are not that many working farms, not here anyway, for those dogs to do what they were originally bred to do. Absolutely I think a BC should be able to do their original job but I think it's great if they can do others as well. What happens in 20 years with this breed if they haven't evolved (a bit - not show ring - just to clarify)? Sure there will be die hard farmers who use dogs to do the job, but likely there will be a more efficient mechanical way to do things and that will be how herding is done. Then what? The breed dies out? This all said, there are some registered breeders who I have heard are quite "respected" in the ring, but are NOT breeding responsibly, so as someone who does to animal rescue I find it so frustrating to hear people sing the praises of these breeders. Again, for me, to be a good breeder is that the dog will work, the dog comes from healthy dogs (hips, CERF, optigen, etc), contracts (know who you are selling to), spay/neuter agreements (and to follow up on them), take the pups back if they don't work out, etc etc etc. I am SUPER happy to read some of the practices on here by those of you who have posted! SUPER SUPER SUPER happy! You have no idea what we are dealing with her in the Maritimes by these registered BC "respected" breeders. Very upsetting so my apologies for being passionate about this. I am well aware that most of you have way more knowledge than me, and I do respect that, but I will not be talked down to. I respect SueR's comments and her posts, and a few others (just hers stand out as we bantered a bit), however the self righteous attitude of others is very disappointing. IF I do decide to breed my dogs (not once have I said for sure I was!), it will be after VERY careful decision, based on a NUMBER of factors, and all health clearances are done. Contracts will be done and followed up on. So I guess if this all makes me a bad person, so be it! I've been called alot worse! LOL Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
juliepoudrier Posted February 12, 2010 Report Share Posted February 12, 2010 Come to the Maritimes ANYTIME and I'll show you around what we have for what I consider good working lines. Have you ever been here? Do you know anything about what we are seeing here? So before you judge me and my beliefs, maybe you should learn what we have available here - registered too. I THOUGHT I was in an adult debate, no? So why don't you spare me the comments about what I have seen over the years in our maritime provinces. Geesh. Nope, I can't say that I've been to the maritimes, but I do question how you can on one hand say that you aren't very experienced with working dogs and then on the other make statements like "working dogs have temperament problems." To me it sounds like you're rationalizing your reasons for wanting to breed. No one can stop you from doing exactly what you want to do, but it seems to me that you should be honest about it instead of making claims about working dogs when you don't really have experience with them on anything other than a very small scale. You say "what I consider good working lines." How about clarifying this? What working lines do you have in the maritimes? This is an honest question. You keep mentioning that the dogs are registered, but there's more to a working dog than just being registered. I know I won't change your mind, and I'm not really even trying to, but the arguments you've been using have been used by many others like you who have come here wanting to breed their dogs (the whole "the times they are a-changing" argument), and I see nothing wrong with pointing that out. J. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AmandaMJL Posted February 12, 2010 Report Share Posted February 12, 2010 Nope, I can't say that I've been to the maritimes, but I do question how you can on one hand say that you aren't very experienced with working dogs and then on the other make statements like "working dogs have temperament problems." I do not appreciate you putting words in my mouth. You know that is not at all what my statement was, you are taking it to the extreme. Beyond this comment there is no sense me explaining anything as you appear to enjoy twisting things and I don't enjoy that so much as you do Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
juliepoudrier Posted February 12, 2010 Report Share Posted February 12, 2010 Thanks for answering my question about the working lines available in the maritimes. It makes no sense to make claims about the working lines in your area and then not give any support to the claim. But I'm not surprised at the non-answer either. J. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AmandaMJL Posted February 12, 2010 Report Share Posted February 12, 2010 Thanks for answering my question about the working lines available in the maritimes. It makes no sense to make claims about the working lines in your area and then not give any support to the claim. But I'm not surprised at the non-answer either. J. I'm not about to list the registered breeders here and what is going on, on a public forum! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DeltaBluez Tess Posted February 12, 2010 Author Report Share Posted February 12, 2010 >>Is your Tess related to Nat's BC? I have been watching what she's been doing with her boy and he's looking great! << If you are talking about Drift, then yes. He is the great grandson of Tess. Diane Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stockdogranch Posted February 12, 2010 Report Share Posted February 12, 2010 No offense meant to anyone on this board. Since I'm the one who originally mentioned the comment that brought about this response, I'll answer. *I* certainly didn't take offense to your comment about "working lines" with bad temperaments, as I breed (occasionally) for working ability, AND I stand behind the temperament of the pups I put on the ground. I was merely pointing out that your statement was perhaps a bit over-generalized, particularly given your admission that you were fairly new to working border collies. As for what you have locally calling themselves "working breeders," I dunno. Never been there. That's probably why Julie asked, in a rather straightforward manner, what some of the lines are, as she, among others on this board, could perhaps shed some light as to the "seriousness," if you will, of those "working lines." Sadly there are not that many working farms, not here anyway, for those dogs to do what they were originally bred to do. And that certainly may be the case where you are located, and that's too bad. But that does not mean that there is not work for the working border collie elsewhere. Certainly things have changed (for example, now many will use an ATV rather than a horse), but there are still MANY farmers/ranchers who absolutely NEED a good dog for their day-to-day livestock operations, and in the western US, perhaps there are more cattle ranchers than sheep folks who need good working dogs these days. So just because some things have changed, or that there are not "many working farms" where you are located does not mean that we should now start breeding these dogs just because they are red, or merle, or cute, or have a really nice personality, or can jump through a hoop really well. The border collie was bred for its working ability, and that's what makes it good at other things. Do all those other things with it if you want, just leave the breeding to those who are breeding for the working ability and are experienced enough to understand what that really requires, A Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DeltaBluez Tess Posted February 12, 2010 Author Report Share Posted February 12, 2010 I have two red Border Collies, well now, one, since I just sold Lucy. Did I keep them since they were red? Nope. Both were return dogs....Roo was traded for Kane and Lucy due to owner's spouse illness/allergy. I have had tons of people want to bred to Roo solely for the fact that he is red. Not going to happen. He did bred a b/w bitch (Nan's daughter) and that was based on working ability and not on color. Lucy is being bred and, I had numerous people ask for a red pup from her. Those people were put on the "no-go list" I get 75% of questions/etc who want to bred to a red dog or get a red pup. It used to amaze me but not anymore. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DeltaBluez Tess Posted February 12, 2010 Author Report Share Posted February 12, 2010 QUOTE(DeltaBluez Tess @ Feb 11 2010, 09:53 PM) >>So many dogs with great working lines have horrible temperments and that is a huge beef with me.<<< My Tess takes great offense at that statment!! Diane >FYI - my statement is based on what is available here where I live. < Ok, I am clear on that now ;-) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sue R Posted February 12, 2010 Report Share Posted February 12, 2010 I guess to put it simply I find it rather upsetting that based on coat color etc that a BC is judged. I absolutely see a need for the working BC, as with any of the dog breeds, they were bred for a purpose! However, times have changed and I think it's great to give these dogs different jobs that they too will excel at. Sadly there are not that many working farms, not here anyway, for those dogs to do what they were originally bred to do. Absolutely I think a BC should be able to do their original job but I think it's great if they can do others as well. What happens in 20 years with this breed if they haven't evolved (a bit - not show ring - just to clarify)? Sure there will be die hard farmers who use dogs to do the job, but likely there will be a more efficient mechanical way to do things and that will be how herding is done. Then what? The breed dies out? Once the Border Collie is no longer bred for stockwork, yes, the breed will have died out. There may be dogs that physically resemble Border Collies, that have some of their traits, but they will no longer be Border Collies. Sport Collies, Performance Collies, Barbie Collies, whatever - but not Border Collies. Just because times change does not mean that there will no longer be a need for a good, honest working dog. But is there a true "need" for another all-purpose, "versatile" pet/performance dog? Or is there just a "want"? This all said, there are some registered breeders who I have heard are quite "respected" in the ring, but are NOT breeding responsibly, so as someone who does to animal rescue I find it so frustrating to hear people sing the praises of these breeders. Again, for me, to be a good breeder is that the dog will work, the dog comes from healthy dogs (hips, CERF, optigen, etc), contracts (know who you are selling to), spay/neuter agreements (and to follow up on them), take the pups back if they don't work out, etc etc etc. I am SUPER happy to read some of the practices on here by those of you who have posted! SUPER SUPER SUPER happy! You have no idea what we are dealing with her in the Maritimes by these registered BC "respected" breeders. Very upsetting so my apologies for being passionate about this. I'm not sure what you mean by "in the ring" but I'm assuming you are referring to trialing? No one here is saying that just because someone is a "working breeder" that that makes them a good, repsonsible breeder. But not breeding for working ability (and, some people seem to have missed this, that includes temperment, health, and soundness along with stock sense) is simply irresponsible breeding when it comes to the future of the breed - and that is rampant already. Who needs another breeder of pet/performance dogs? Just like who needs another irresponsible breeder of "working-bred" dogs (and I put that in quotes because, if you are not breeding well, you are not breeding useful dogs). I am well aware that most of you have way more knowledge than me, and I do respect that, but I will not be talked down to. I respect SueR's comments and her posts, and a few others (just hers stand out as we bantered a bit), however the self righteous attitude of others is very disappointing. I don't see anyone being self-righteous. People I respect and admire are simply sick and tired of the same old argument to justify breeding dogs that aren't proven (and this has been discussed already in this topic) as worthy of breeding with regards to stockworking abilities. And sick and tired of being painted with the same brush that irresponsible "working" breeders that you observe in your area - you point out your lack of experience (not in the rescue sense, as that seems quite enough) with working-bred dogs, and then make blanket statements about what breeding Border Collies is all about. That's it, bluntly. No wonder people, who are responsible, are feeling a bit testy with your comments. I have never bred, will never breed, and I feel frustrated. IF I do decide to breed my dogs (not once have I said for sure I was!), it will be after VERY careful decision, based on a NUMBER of factors, and all health clearances are done. Contracts will be done and followed up on. So I guess if this all makes me a bad person, so be it! I've been called alot worse! LOL All the paperwork and contracts in the world, all the "VERY careful" consideration, all the "NUMBER of factors" will be pretty meaningless if you are not breeding for true working ability. Period. I don't mean to be offensive, but that's it in a nutshell, from someone who depends on her dogs to help manage her cattle - and is grateful to those who proved, culled, and bred the dogs that produced the working Border Collie. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AmandaMJL Posted February 12, 2010 Report Share Posted February 12, 2010 Agreeing to disagree once again, and respectfully. Where we live, there is maybe one or two known BC breeders that would be what I consider to be responsible. We have breeders who have trialled their dogs and done well, however will sell to anyone and anything that shows up with money, with no contracts. Those same people continue to get dogs from what I understand from being on other BC lists as highly respected breeders. Why are these people still getting these dogs to breed the crap out of??? There aren't very many working farms here from what there were years ago, which is a sad thing. One such breeders barn is so sad to see with pups who've frozen to death, dogs with HD and yet this "breeder" is still getting new lines from across Cda and the USA. To find a BC with a good temperment here is very difficult, not impossible, but certainly not easy. That said, there are also some sports breeders that I would not recommend either because of their ethics and their goals for their dogs. I do want to learn things here and I am not close minded to not learn. I do like to consider all things in every aspect of life. I see a value to certain things that perhaps you all don't. I do however highly respect any one on here who DOES breed that follow responsible breeding/placing practices. And for the record when Moth's breeder starts doing herding lessons, I'm there with my pups, I do want them to do what they were bred to do, I love seeing them in their element. When I see them do what they are bred to do, it really does put me in awe, the instinct is really crazy to watch. Certainly if it was more readily available here I would be all over it. But I'm not prepared to go to an unethical breeders farm to do so. Moth at 3 months old. Adult Moth. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdarling Posted February 12, 2010 Report Share Posted February 12, 2010 Is Hilary Flower anywhere near you? I don't know her or her training methods, however, it looks like she owns a sheep farm and looks like she competes. Or Roy Robinson? Can't tell if he competes or not, or if he's any good or whatever. You could probably go to clinics and take lessons from handlers that are further away like once a month or so, and then just practice what you learn at these other, closer farms. Also, stating the obvious, but have you tried contacting the CBCA and seeing if they could recommend a trainer for you? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mum24dog Posted February 12, 2010 Report Share Posted February 12, 2010 But is there a true "need" for another all-purpose, "versatile" pet/performance dog? Or is there just a "want"? Definitely a "want". If I were wanting another agility dog I would be looking at rescues brought over from Ireland - reason being that the Irish are not sentimental and dogs with bad temperaments don't usually get to live very long. Not saying I approve, just telling it like it is. Of those that haven't been abused beyond sufficient repair, there are many that are well socialised (because they've been allowed to roam as they pleased) and ideal for my purposes. Which would I choose between the little Irish rescue bitch with a very effective off switch (practically comatose in the queue) but who springs into life on the line or the red merle bought from a sport breeder because the owner wanted one that colour? (Both fellow club members.) No prizes for guessing. Pam Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mum24dog Posted February 12, 2010 Report Share Posted February 12, 2010 How'd you guess? I don't think she's the only one but she certainly "stands out". This is a very small country and the agility world is even smaller. Pam Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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