Herding instincts

[Shetlander]

One of my obedience instructors frequently commented, usually shaking her head, that she didn't know anyone who took more enjoyment from her dogs than I do. She wasn't a big fan of this trait, though she admitted it wasn't bad per se. Her concern was that my tendency to laugh and be amused (hey, simple minds and all that) affected the dogs' performance and behaviors in general. I learned a lot from her both for obedience and living with dogs. However, I'm not her. I laugh at my dogs' antics every day. I can still set limits and have expectations for their behaviors. However cute and amusing, pups and dogs need to learn manners.

[Root Beer]

Chasing things isn't "herding", it's displaying prey drive, herding stock is a learned behaviour.

 

I would say, though, that it is a "specialized" prey drive. There is something very distinct about the way a typical Border Collie crouches and stares and stalks. Yes, other types of dogs do that, and not all Border Collies do, but there is still a very unique "Border Collie" style crouch and stare and stalk. To say that it's exactly the same behavior that every dog displays does fail to acknowledge that there is something distinct that is actually there.

 

I'd at least call it "specialized" prey drive.

[Brad]

The way I gauge discipline for my pup is by watching my adult dogs. As the new pup comes into the house, there is a "puppy license", where she gets away with absolutely anything. She bites ears, snipes at feet, etc, and the big dogs just take it. While this is happening, I too give certain puppy license. Once the big dogs start calling her on manners (which was around 16 weeks), I figure that is my queue to start being a hard ass as well. So while at 12 weeks the little puppins got away with chomping my feet, or "herding" me, a couple of stern growls from me extinguished the behaviour. I can now walk her without fear of losing a toe

 

I think there is a time to be a pup, and a time to grow up. For me much of this line is very blurry, but so far what I do works for me and my dogs.

[Samsonsworld]

Not trying to get into an argument here. Just showing my experience with non-herding breeds.

Herding instinct is actually an elevated prey drive of sorts, so again, any dog can exhibit these behaviours. I think it's just super common to see in border collies or other herding breeds because they are still working dogs and therefore the predisposition is still there. Chasing things isn't "herding", it's displaying prey drive, herding stock is a learned behaviour.

 

Not talking about chasing, I'm talking about cutting you off and trying to turn you back. I just don't see how trying to keep the pack together isn't herding? By definition 'to herd' means to gather or place in a group. Guess we'll have to agree to disagree on this one.

[bcnewe2]

." It's a way of trying to make a point that the behavior should be corrected rather than dismissed as "Oh he's trying to herd me, or the kids, or the chain saw..." all of which can of course have disastrous (to a greater or lesser degree) consequences.

 

I can certainly vouch for that one.

I was out of town working for a few weeks. One day DH was using the chainsaw. Dew was probably 6 months or so. Out of the blue she ran up and attacked the running chainsaw. She has a beautiful scar running down her nose. We were really lucky. She has been corrected of this behavior but we don't take chances, if we're using heavy equipment or things that could cause harm she is safely in the house.

 

Puppies are cute no doubt it. All they do as little ones seem so "cute" but...once adulthood is reached those puppy things just aren't so darling anymore.

eg: Dew is a "hugger" she reaches up and squeezes her paws around your neck. Cute if you're ready for a "hug" but that takes jumping up on you to get there. No she doesn't jump on me but she sure does on everyone else she meets. I'll tell her to stay "off" but the other people give her the look that she takes as go for it. Now I seem to be stuck with a dog that thinks it's ok to jump on everyone but me or other dog savvy people that don't give her a chance to do it. She is the only dog I own that "jumps" on people.

Geesh...now that I think about it, Dew was a really cute puppy. Notice my stories are both about her. See how cute can come back and bite you in the bum?

Funny, Lilly the LGD who's about a year old would never think of jumping on anyone. Why...cause it wasn't even cute as a puppy or the thought of her jumping as an adult kept me from ever letting her get away with it.

 

My puppy is due in April. I've vowed that she will not be a jumper.

 

I do think the OP was writing a cute story about her cute pup, then it quickly turned a different direction with the first responce she got. Still cute but heed the warnings and realize that's all they are.

 

As far as the "herding behaviors" being discussed. Really doesn't matter what they are, just so they don't get a chance to turn it into a habit that comes back to get them or you later! I do happen to think working breeds have more issues with nipping or trying to control things/people as pups, but just like other unwanted behaviors, if you let them get away with it when young it'll be twice or 10 times harder to stop as adults. Lets save "herding behaviors" for sheep.

Once again, Dew has a horrible habit of working the other dogs. Gets her in trouble all the time.

I notice a "Dew" theme in my post. Again, I'm not going to be "cuted" into letting my new pup be so bratty.

 

Do you guys think there are just some dogs out there who are more "puppy" than others? Dew is like the only child of older adults (a brat) but I have other dogs that were just as cute and didn't grow up to be such little brats. Sometimes I think it's just Dew.

Nature or nurture.....or a bit of both!

[mum24dog]

I would say, though, that it is a "specialized" prey drive. There is something very distinct about the way a typical Border Collie crouches and stares and stalks. Yes, other types of dogs do that, and not all Border Collies do, but there is still a very unique "Border Collie" style crouch and stare and stalk.

 

Incomplete prey drive in that the end sequence of grab - kill - devour is missing.

My little mongrel bitch does crouch - stare - stalk in the same way as a BC and she shows no herding ancestry at all. Doesn't normally have much of an outrun though.

 

Pam

[mum24dog]

My puppy is due in April. I've vowed that she will not be a jumper.

 

Good luck with that.

Just keep her away from anyone who likes dogs - I speak from experience.

 

Pam

[bcnewe2]

Pam

I don't think it takes luck, I think it takes never letting them get away with it from the start. 4 on the floor will be the rule!

None of my other dogs do that. I was stricter with them as pups.

I had just started working dogs when the other dogs were pups, but by the time I got Dew I'd been working/learning for a while so wasn't as mortified if my dogs acted out in front of "big hats".

Which is why I think I was more stict with the other dogs, More impressionable and worried about what people thought of me...maybe it's just cause now I think of myself as old and don't care as much about what others think....hmmmm

 

But I'd place a wager on this next pup not being a jumper. It just takes determination and a plan

[Root Beer]

Incomplete prey drive in that the end sequence of grab - kill - devour is missing.

My little mongrel bitch does crouch - stare - stalk in the same way as a BC and she shows no herding ancestry at all. Doesn't normally have much of an outrun though.

 

Pam

 

True. My oldest mutt has the complete prey drive. Thankfully, only with appropriate prey, like groundhogs.

 

When he catches a groundhog, yes he stalks, he crouches, and he stares . . . and then he kills. It's actually quite fascinating to watch.

 

Still, his whole demeanor and the way he holds his body as he does this is not the least bit Border Collie-ish. Yes, the behaviors would be described with the same words, but there is a very obvious difference. He has no "outrun", although he will slowly circle his prey. But, again, his demeanor is very different from that of a Border Collie when circling.

 

He might have Border Collie in him, but behavior wise, he's about the opposite of a Border Collie. But he has prey drive!

[Ms.DaisyDuke]

I would say, though, that it is a "specialized" prey drive. There is something very distinct about the way a typical Border Collie crouches and stares and stalks. Yes, other types of dogs do that, and not all Border Collies do, but there is still a very unique "Border Collie" style crouch and stare and stalk. To say that it's exactly the same behavior that every dog displays does fail to acknowledge that there is something distinct that is actually there.

 

I'd at least call it "specialized" prey drive.

 

That's a way better way of explaining it.

[Mark Billadeau]

When BC tries to turn you around to prevent you from leaving a room, I think that is a unique characteristic of a herding dog.

Our maremma will try to prevent us from leaving or moving forward by blocking our path; does that mean he's a herding dog?

[stockdogranch]

^^Apparently. I'm still curious, and still hoping for an answer to my original question: Was the dog taken to stock or how was the assessment made that the dog has been "indifferent to herding"?

A

[sea4th]

Over the years I've seen far too many rude behaviors laughed off as "herding instinct"--I mean ad nauseum -- and these were all in adult dogs. OP's pup is, well, a pup, still learning. I give the OP enough credit for brains to see this as a puppy behavior, cute for now, but not something to be encouraged. I do understand where some would raise hackles hearing "my dog does -- fill in the blank -- because it's his herding instinct -- he's part border collie, ya know" and therefore it's not only acceptable, but almost necessary. like breathing and sleeping. It's these types I want to bitch slap because I'm tired of otherwise sane people rationalize their obnoxious dog's behavior, because it does sometimes end up with we couldn't handle his herding instinct -- he is part border collie, ya know -- and took him to the pound -- or whatever.

 

This brought to mind something I saw years ago when border collies were first "recognized" by ACK. Every year, there were two huge show clusters in this area -- 4 days, 4 shows, one cluster in the summer, one in the winter. I would work at these shows and got to see a lot of dogs, a lot of people. These clusters drew thousands of John Q's. There was this one idiot with a border collie -- confo dog, I believe, walking around the show grounds showing off her dog. So what's wrong with that? Nothing, but it was the way she paraded around the show grounds with her border collie. The dog had a hold of her pant leg the entire time, growling and so she walked, step, drag, step, drag, step, drag, dog attached to her leg, parading her dog's cuteness -- he is a border collie after all, and also making a spectacle of her supposed exasperation. Of course the spectators fed into her "isn't this just the cutest thing". If it were legal, I'd have dope slapped her.

 

I wonder how many people came away from that show that day thinking that this was normal and acceptable behavior for a border collie.

[juliepoudrier]

^^This is exactly what I was talking about. Excusing bad behavior or even writing off a dog because of behavior that was allowed to continue because it was labeled "herding behavior" and therefore somehow necessary and unavoidable.

 

J.

[sea4th]

And preventing you from leaving the room is not a herding dog thing. I have 3 and they don't do it.

 

I have to agree here. I have 13 border collies now. These 13 plus the ones I've had in my past never ever demonstrated this behavior. OTOH, I've had my 2 CO's (LGD's), a GSD and know of someone's dobe who would block someone from leaving a room -- for different reasons, I'm sure, but that it was herding instinct never entered my mind.

[Laura L]

Our maremma will try to prevent us from leaving or moving forward by blocking our path; does that mean he's a herding dog?

 

Mark at our house it's called "road blocking". It's a technical term that applies to any dog who wants attention.

 

Laura

[PSmitty]

Mark at our house it's called "road blocking". It's a technical term that applies to any dog who wants attention.

 

Laura

 

I just called a dog "Roadblocker" last night!

[SoloRiver]

Mine don't prevent me from leaving the room. Rather, they follow me everywhere. Guess they're not herding dogs after all. Somebody better call Working Border Collie magazine and tell them they screwed up when they put Fly on the cover. For what it's worth, all three of them work sheep and are very very keen.

 

I find that they are often in the way as I move around, but so was my Pomeranian and so was my Papillon. To me the most parsimonious explanation for this behavior is that my eyes are in the front of my head, and dogs tend to put themselves where it is easiest to get your attention, so they can usually be found in your line of sight. If my eyes were in the back of my head, they'd try to get my attention back there.

[sea4th]

When my GSD and friend's dobe body blocked, it was mostly with people who didn't belong to the household, and when they did that, they made it clear that said person was to stay in said room until master came back. My CO's -- LGD's, put their bodies in between pup or person and possible danger.

 

As far as the border collies being in front, so they can easily get your attention --- sigh. I know that all too well. I go through that every morning. Oh Boy! It's 4 a.m. I'm up to go to the bathroom. They think the day is beginning. They swirl around me, making eye contact, Oh boy oh boy. Let's go out. Let's go out, and with an undulating and furry mass I make my way to the coffee pot and then the door. They all run out. Quick potty. If the Amish guy's been there the day before, they take a few extra minutes to smell horse crap and that undulating mass gathers once again at the door and then it's "OK. What we gonna do now. Huh? Let's go see the cats. OK. We seen the cats. What now. " I try to sit and get my inner engine going with a strong cup of coffee and they are all in front of me staring, they're still, but staring, occasionally making ugly faces at the dog next to them, but the minute I move, so do they --- we are a choreographed and synchronized mass --- but body blocked me to stop me from moving --- never, neither as a pack or individually.

 

ETA - the fact that their main meal is in the a.m. accounts for a lot of their intensity in the morning. -- in all fairness, I had to add that.

[Ooky]

The worst body blocker/"herder" of people and other dogs I know personally is a doberman - my in-law's dog. Although, she is "herding" people to get rubs and attention, as she is very sweet.

 

When Odin and Margie (the dobie) play ball together, Odin exhibits what *I* think of as classic BC behavior - crazy ball intensity from Odin. Margie runs back and forth with him, trying to "herd" him.

 

I get what Samsonsworld is saying - Odin exhibited what seemed like some very unique crouching/stalking/"herding" behavior to the cats etc as a puppy. But I also get what others are saying - we let him know this was unacceptable and are now very glad for it around cats, small dogs, children, etc. And it didn't do a thing to his ACTUAL herding behavior and keeness on sheep at all - that is still very, very much intact!

[Root Beer]

At least most these things being attributed to "herding behavior" are habits and characteristics that are fairly common to show up in a goodly number of Border Collies. Of course, with the exception of the exceptions!

 

I had someone tell me once that all Border Collies are aggressive "because of their herding instinct" and you pretty much have to beat that out of them (literally and figuratively) "because they are herding dogs". According to this person, "herding dogs" can't learn any other way. Okaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay. Thankfully, that person did not own Border Collies, nor any other type of "herding dog".

 

Upon telling her that I had two Border Collies, neither of who have ever been aggressive, and have certainly never been severely taken to task for being aggressive, I received a strange look of disbelief.

 

There are a lot of misconceptions out there. A lot!

[Maralynn]

Mine don't prevent me from leaving the room. Rather, they follow me everywhere. Guess they're not herding dogs after all. Somebody better call Working Border Collie magazine and tell them they screwed up when they put Fly on the cover. For what it's worth, all three of them work sheep and are very very keen.

 

Yup, mine are velcro dogs, too. But they always move out of the way when I'm coming through. I'm amazed at how close Kipp can stay while keeping himself just enough out of the way that he doesn't get stepped on. Miss stays close, too. Just not quite that close.

[Mark Billadeau]

Mark at our house it's called "road blocking". It's a technical term that applies to any dog who wants attention.

 

Laura

 

Jasper the Greyhound is VERY proficient at this behavior which IS NOT HERDING related.

[Sue R]

Oh, Vickie, your house and mine sound the same in the morning, although I don't have the option of coffee to try and jump-start myself - the moment one dog imagines that I might be awake, they are all up and ready to go instantly! And since I don't have the luxury of a fenced yard, I have to go outside with them. Since Dan is on the long line for most trips out right now, that means I'm out in it, rain or snow or sleet or hail. Human beings need to awake with the joie de vivre that Border Collies have early in the morning!

 

None of my dogs try to "herd" people - they'd know better if they tried (and found out better if they tried when pups). But Celt would love to "work" a lively toddler and so is not allowed to even think about it. Dan and Megan would prefer to lick and cuddle them into a mass of giggles on the floor if I'd let them, which I don't.

 

"Herding behaviors" are an excuse for all sorts of behaviors, whether or not there is or isn't any validity to it. But, by golly, if you have a "herding group" dog, you will have "herding behaviors". Smart trainers deal with it and those handlers that don't will experience problems on down the road.

 

Pups and pup behaviors may be cute but pups need guidance and guidelines. I think we are all in agreement on that.

[flyer]

The way I gauge discipline for my pup is by watching my adult dogs. As the new pup comes into the house, there is a "puppy license", where she gets away with absolutely anything. She bites ears, snipes at feet, etc, and the big dogs just take it. While this is happening, I too give certain puppy license. Once the big dogs start calling her on manners (which was around 16 weeks), I figure that is my queue to start being a hard ass as well. So while at 12 weeks the little puppins got away with chomping my feet, or "herding" me, a couple of stern growls from me extinguished the behaviour. I can now walk her without fear of losing a toe

 

I think there is a time to be a pup, and a time to grow up. For me much of this line is very blurry, but so far what I do works for me and my dogs.

 

 

I am experiencing this right now. Colt has let Bea do absolutely anything to him and she is a brat, (A very cute brat but yesterday I saw him correct her quickly and smartly for jumping on his head. She is 14 weeks.