Fever, whining, restlessness, drinking water, must bribe to eat... Mojo request

[aljones]

It's been a few years since I had a dog who was treated with prednisone, but I do remember it increasing her water intake (and, therefore, her need to pee) dramatically. I can't remember exactly how many extra times she needed to go out each day--maybe half again as many bathroom breaks as usual?

 

I think crating Pan when you can't watch her/be home is a good idea--and just be extra-aware of any signs she might be giving you about wanting to go out when you're home.

[pansmom]

It's been a few years since I had a dog who was treated with prednisone, but I do remember it increasing her water intake (and, therefore, her need to pee) dramatically. I can't remember exactly how many extra times she needed to go out each day--maybe half again as many bathroom breaks as usual?

 

I think crating Pan when you can't watch her/be home is a good idea--and just be extra-aware of any signs she might be giving you about wanting to go out when you're home.

 

Thanks for the tip! The dog who's being treated for heartworms is Vala though. Just so you know... Pan was my first BC mix, poor dear.

 

Anyway--excuse me, Vala just ate--time for another potty break. THANK YOU PREDNISONE!!!!

[juliepoudrier]

Yep, pred will make them drink more and pee more. When my Willow was on high-dose prednisone for her mast cell tumor, the biggest change I noted was that she couldn't make it through the night without a pee break (I was at home so could let her out often during the day, though she leaked anyway). Of course, she was probably on a way higher dose than Vala is on *and* she's on meds for incontinence, so you can imagine how much fun we had for those few months....

 

I hope Vala continues to feel better. If you crate her when you leave, you might want to consider putting something absorbent like a puppy pee pad in with her so that if she does have to go she won't be sitting in it.

 

J.

[aljones]

The dog who's being treated for heartworms is Vala though. Just so you know... Pan was my first BC mix, poor dear.

Duh--sorry! Of course, I knew that we're talking about Vala...was just distracted while posting. Hope she continues to improve.

[Olivia]

I concur with the other about significantly more potty breaks with the pred. Since they are peeing so much some people limit the water so that they can make it through the night but it is very important that this isn't done! She must have access to water at all times while on pred. Also keep in mind that it will make her want to eat more. Use good filling, low calorie foods to help her feel full without getting pudgy. Canned pumpkin and green beans added to food work well and no salt rice cakes make good, crunchy, low cal treats.

 

Good luck. The clinic I work in specializes in cancer treatment so we have a lot of patients on pred. It isn't easy but hopefully she will fly through the next few weeks and get off the pred soon.

 

Mojo coming from TN!!

 

Olivia

[ThunderHill]

Prayers and positive thoughts en route from onomotopoetic Pennsylvania.

 

What Everyone Else Said about the prednisone. Great stuff but powerful and weird. It will increase thirst and appetite, and therefore output. Vala won't forget her clean habits, she'll just need to go more often. Another common side effect can be temporary pot belly, as pred can cause fatty deposits in the liver. (It will reverse by itself in due course once treatment is finished.) Depending on the dosage (if she's on a somewhat high dose for a while) Vala may need to be tapered off when it's time to finish that part of her treatment. If that's the case the instructions about reducing dosage should be followed carefully -- I know you will, it's just one more thing to keep track of! Also, sometimes animals (and humans) experience mood changes while on predisone, or during the tapering process. (I've been on prednisone twice myself, and coming off it was like the worst case of raging/crying-jag/moodswing/munchies caricature-level PMS I've ever had in my life. PMS has seldom troubled me but that's the closest state it compared to.) Anyway, most likely, because Vala is such a sweetie, you'll never know. :-)

 

Given Vala's definite response to the immiticide, it sounds like the remaining critters were well dug in, and the vet made a good call in going to the stronger treatment.

 

Bye bye Evil!Bad!Nasty! heartworms! And good riddance.

 

Please keep us posted. Thanks for sharing your ongoing story. Sending much sympathy.

 

Liz S @ Watching This Space

[PSmitty]

Good thoughts going out for Vala's continued recovery.

[3DogMayhem]

<lurking cloak disengaged>

 

My lab Shelby is on prednisone for an auto immune disorder. When we first started, 3 pills a day (15 mg) she drank forever and had an accident in the house at least every other day. Fortunately between our two jobs, most of the time someone was home to let her out. Her nose got dry and crusty and her coat got really dull and lifeless. Make sure you supplement with some omega 3-6-9 oils and Vitamin E. She also lost a lot of muscle mass and weight quickly and became extremely whiny and even more vocal/whiny than before.

 

That was last summer and our vet has had us wean her down for half a pill per day. Her coat and nose is back to normal and her thirst level has decreased. Of course, being a lab, it's all about the water bowl anyways However, she is just as vocal as before but I think she just started enjoy being the mouthy one in the family.

 

Hope this helps!

Deanna

 

<lurking cloak engaged>

[WildFlower]

I just saw this!

 

More good mojo coming from WI from Daisy, Devon, and I!

[pansmom]

Oh actually Vala has been on prednisone before, when she had a reaction the first (second? third? I don't remember anymore) time we administered Ivermectin. She walked around the house coughing up clear phlegm for like fifteen minutes (dead microfilaria I now surmise--next time she had a smear she had gone from 3+ to 1 microfilaria count). They were afraid she'd go into shock, so she got sent home w/ prednisone, then, and yes, the same weird weaning off instructions she has now (10 mg 2xday for 3 days, 10 mg 1xday for 3 days, 5 mg 1xday for 3 days, and 5 mg every other day for three days--these are 5 mg pills). Last time she had no accidents, but I honestly think that's because we waited to give the prednisone until 2-3 days after we gave cortizone that time.

 

This time she got cortizone Friday afternoon at 2:30ish and then started on the prednisone Saturday morning around 11. I mean her accident was like an hour or two after I gave the first 10 mg of prednisone. That's a lot of steroid in her system. I think the combination of both at once--the cortizone not quite gone--made the steroid side effects particularly noticeable--but at the appointment I had questioned the vet, are you sure you want me to start Saturday morning since I know the cortizone effects (hunger, etc.) last a couple days for her and he said yes definitely I presume because we want to err on the side of safety to prevent the thromboembolism.

 

No accidents today. No un-provoked coughing--she did hack a bit when we went out to go potty but that was because she was pulling on her leash trying to get at cat poop in the yard. (SIDEBAR: How do you enforce loose leash manners on a dog that hacks when she pulls? It simply doesn't seem feasible. When we first got her she was a loose leash walking dream. But about two months after we got her she started forging, despite my luring and using a short leash and all the right tricks, turning suddenly, stopping when she pulls and treating and naming the correct position first "heel" then "get in line"--I taught Pan, who had 10x Vala's drive, not to do this so I thought I knew how!!! But none of that really worked, until I tried saying "walk pretty" instead--thinking maybe I could appeal to the lady in her or something--and for some reason that worked, somehow almost immediately after I switched to start saying that she was like oh! heavens! my manners! i should be prancing at your side (and she literally started prancing with her tail up, very proud)! So for the past month or two normally she's been quite proud to listen when I tell her to "walk pretty." But now that she has gone oh what is it 2 weeks without exercise, vets orders, sometimes she regresses and she's all like, BU-U-U-UT CAT POOP]! Alas.) Excuse me while I go feed her some more and give her some more meds. I suppose she only goes out to potty right now, vets orders, so I'm fine with waiting until she's well to get back on track with loose leash walking. And she knows what "walk pretty" means and what is expected, she's just super fritzy right now. But if anybody has any ideas... Other than take her out back in the fenced area where there is no yummy cat poop. But then she's gotta go through the back rooms where our cats are... Although she doesn't pull on leash for them so I suppose that's the better idea. It's just easier to take her out the front door when she has to go out 8x a day now...

[Lenajo]

I don't do conventional heartworm treatment - for all the problems you've mentioned. Even with the Katrina dog my friend got. but that aside - if a dog has a respiratory issue - kennel cough, chf, etc - I would walk them in a harness. If you don't have a no pull harness you can simply clip your leash to the front ring of a standard one. That way when she pulls, she just turns around to face you. works like a halti, but no on the head and throat.

[pansmom]

I don't do conventional heartworm treatment - for all the problems you've mentioned. Even with the Katrina dog my friend got. but that aside - if a dog has a respiratory issue - kennel cough, chf, etc - I would walk them in a harness. If you don't have a no pull harness you can simply clip your leash to the front ring of a standard one. That way when she pulls, she just turns around to face you. works like a halti, but no on the head and throat.

 

Good idea about the halter. Thanks.

 

Re: the conventional treatment--I would've preferred not to--was trying the DOXY/IVM one first--but we were scared to do lots of IVM because of her unknown pedigree, and the vet got weird and worried when her microfilaria count stopped decreasing. And this was right around the same time a dog at the shelter died of heartworms... complications of the disease... not the treatment... HORRIBLE thing to see. And with her unknown age and unknown disease progression, I couldn't stand seeing that happen to her. So I went along with this.

 

I'd love to consider alternatives to going through with shots #2 and #3. How bad was the diagnosis for the Katrina dog, how old(ish), how far progressed the disease, and what did y'all do instead? My vet has already said this is an art not a science and he is okay with pushing apart the shots depending on how she reacts, so I would love to hear other ideas... are you talking like IVM once a week and DOXY or something else? I talked to a holistic vet a while back and he says he just uses IVM and waits for 'em to clear... But again, with her unknown pedigree, and her bad reaction to the IVM that one time it freaks me out.

[Lenajo]

The Katrina dog was 3 to 5ish, a pit mix that had parvo while in the shelter as well. They took a year long process to clear the HW, and it was I think...2 years until she tested negative. The holistic vet who instructed them through the process works by phone. Before I add more I would rather refer you to her and let her, your vet, and you work together on the process. pm me for her contact info if you're interested

 

The worst possible decision maker is Fear.

[Tommy Coyote]

Hey, Vala just had an accident in the house (first in months and months--since the first or second week we got her when we were housetraining). Exactly how many times a day would you say I should take her out on days she takes prednisone? Treat it like housetraining again? Now I have to crate her while I go to the gym to work out.

How much pred is she getting? When Tommy was on 40 mg a day I just had to give up on getting her out. I put pee pads down and she used those. She was going thru 50 in about 4 days. Things got better when she went to 20 mg a day. But she still had accidents. I still leave papers down for her. And she gets me up maybe 4 times a nite.

[pansmom]

How much pred is she getting? When Tommy was on 40 mg a day I just had to give up on getting her out. I put pee pads down and she used those. She was going thru 50 in about 4 days. Things got better when she went to 20 mg a day. But she still had accidents. I still leave papers down for her. And she gets me up maybe 4 times a nite.

 

She's on 20 mg a day. The only accident was the first day when she was at 20 mg + cortizone still not out of her system. Now she's pottying maybe twice as much as usual but she can hold it enough that there are no accidents... She's a good girl and we know her potty dance.

 

Tomorrow she goes down to 10 mg so that'll be easier.

[Tommy Coyote]

She's on 20 mg a day. The only accident was the first day when she was at 20 mg + cortizone still not out of her system. Now she's pottying maybe twice as much as usual but she can hold it enough that there are no accidents... She's a good girl and we know her potty dance.

 

Tomorrow she goes down to 10 mg so that'll be easier.

Is she still doing OK?

 

I have some holistic friends who think that the whole heartworm thing is a giant scam. They don't use heartworm meds at all. Just use black walnut in the dog's water. And get their dogs tested every 6 months. But they live in Michigan. And sure there are lots of mosquitoes in Michigan but it is also a lot colder there and that is what makes the difference - not the number of bugs. Heartworm larvae can't survive until the temperature is consistantly over 52 degrees. Michigan winters are a whole lot colder and longer than we have here. And their summer nites are a lot cooler. But they don't believe me. Don't want their dogs to have chemicals of any kind.

 

But heartworms are a huge problem in our area. I'm just not willing to risk it. So my dogs are on Sentinel.

[pansmom]

Is she still doing OK?

 

I have some holistic friends who think that the whole heartworm thing is a giant scam. They don't use heartworm meds at all. Just use black walnut in the dog's water. And get their dogs tested every 6 months. But they live in Michigan. And sure there are lots of mosquitoes in Michigan but it is also a lot colder there and that is what makes the difference - not the number of bugs. Heartworm larvae can't survive until the temperature is consistantly over 52 degrees. Michigan winters are a whole lot colder and longer than we have here. And their summer nites are a lot cooler. But they don't believe me. Don't want their dogs to have chemicals of any kind.

 

But heartworms are a huge problem in our area. I'm just not willing to risk it. So my dogs are on Sentinel.

 

Thankfully, she is still doing okay. She seems to be on the mend actually. Not coughing at all anymore, nose cold and wet, calm, affectionate, following me around the house as usual, no panting. It's day fifteen and I think the prednisone is working. But I'm going to talk to my vet about whether/when we are going to do this double shot. If the first shot only kills a small percentage of the heartworms...

 

About your friends, yeah, in Michigan the temperature doesn't stay high enough for long enough for heartworms to be a huge problem. More power to them with their black walnut. But this is south Louisiana, hurricane and bayou country.

 

When I was in my early 20s, after my dad died, I inherited his three outside dogs, two five and one eight, and when I took them to the vet they were HW+. I couldn't afford anything more so I put them on Heartgard. (At the time I was like 21, I had two rescued cats, and no real job--still in college, and neither me nor my ex-husband particularly cared for dogs--the only ones we'd ever been exposed to were completely untrained yard dogs like my dad's who jumped on you and licked your face and you were supposed to just laugh and go, oh, dogs. But I wasn't going to just leave them unvetted!) So when I took them to the vet they were HW+ and the vet told me that some of them just clear on their own after a year or two if you keep them on Heartgard. And this was back before Immiticide when the adulticide treatment was even harsher. But two of the three dogs died a couple months afterward--only the third dog lived for me to rehome him (to a nice guy who wanted to use him as a hunting dog, he was a beagle mix, I explained the dog was + and gave him a year's supply of Heartgard).

 

And I recently saw a wonderful BC (Aiden, he was such a smart smart dog) die at the shelter of heartworm-related heart disease and complications, they couldn't even get him to stabilize.

 

Heartworms are no joke here either. I can see maybe dosing mostly inside dogs less frequently than 1x a month or using the liquid IVM rather than Heartgard if you know your dog doesn't have the sensitivity, or even doing as I did and trying to clear a less-infected or progressed dog with DOXY/IVM, which is much easier on the dog. I so wanted that to work. But using black walnut down here, no. Unless there was a scientific double blind study on the efficacy of black walnut!!! I mean, I know scientific studies are often driven by economic forces. And yes the heartworm industry is an industry, which overemphasizes the dangers and capitalizes on fear in areas where it isn't a problem--but here, it clearly is, as I know from personal experience.

[Tommy Coyote]

Thankfully, she is still doing okay. She seems to be on the mend actually. Not coughing at all anymore, nose cold and wet, calm, affectionate, following me around the house as usual, no panting. It's day fifteen and I think the prednisone is working. But I'm going to talk to my vet about whether/when we are going to do this double shot. If the first shot only kills a small percentage of the heartworms...

 

About your friends, yeah, in Michigan the temperature doesn't stay high enough for long enough for heartworms to be a huge problem. More power to them with their black walnut. But this is south Louisiana, hurricane and bayou country.

 

When I was in my early 20s, after my dad died, I inherited his three outside dogs, two five and one eight, and when I took them to the vet they were HW+. I couldn't afford anything more so I put them on Heartgard. (At the time I was like 21, I had two rescued cats, and no real job--still in college, and neither me nor my ex-husband particularly cared for dogs--the only ones we'd ever been exposed to were completely untrained yard dogs like my dad's who jumped on you and licked your face and you were supposed to just laugh and go, oh, dogs. But I wasn't going to just leave them unvetted!) So when I took them to the vet they were HW+ and the vet told me that some of them just clear on their own after a year or two if you keep them on Heartgard. And this was back before Immiticide when the adulticide treatment was even harsher. But two of the three dogs died a couple months afterward--only the third dog lived for me to rehome him (to a nice guy who wanted to use him as a hunting dog, he was a beagle mix, I explained the dog was + and gave him a year's supply of Heartgard).

 

One of the problems with holistic is that there don't seem to be many scientific studies to back up the claims. Just lots of first person anecdotes. Not that they might not be right - I just haven't seen much to back up the claims.

 

And I recently saw a wonderful BC (Aiden, he was such a smart smart dog) die at the shelter of heartworm-related heart disease and complications, they couldn't even get him to stabilize.

 

Heartworms are no joke here either. I can see maybe dosing mostly inside dogs less frequently than 1x a month or using the liquid IVM rather than Heartgard if you know your dog doesn't have the sensitivity, or even doing as I did and trying to clear a less-infected or progressed dog with DOXY/IVM, which is much easier on the dog. I so wanted that to work. But using black walnut down here, no. Unless there was a scientific double blind study on the efficacy of black walnut!!! I mean, I know scientific studies are often driven by economic forces. And yes the heartworm industry is an industry, which overemphasizes the dangers and capitalizes on fear in areas where it isn't a problem--but here, it clearly is, as I know from personal experience.

[Jimmyd65]

Get well soon Vala...